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Author Topic: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?  (Read 850 times)

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geeday

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If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« on: July 02, 2018, 03:16:38 am »
+2

Iron cards give you 1 of 3 effects based on the type of another card:

+1 action for action cards
+1 coin for treasure cards
+1 card for victory cards

It's always bugged me a little that there was no way to get the 4th basic effect, buys, out of Iron cards. But it made sense, there were only 3 basic card types to attach effects to, and buys are the least generally useful. But all that changed with Nocturne, which introduce a fourth basic card type: Night. Making Night cards give you buys would be nice for a couple of reasons:

It makes it so Iron cards can give you all 4 basic effects, something about that just feels right to me.
It makes it so Night cards don't interact so poorly with Iron cards, currently they're effectively dead cards like curses.
The incidence rates would work well, on some boards a single +buy can be game changing, getting a Night card and an Iron card together would be pretty rare but when it did happen it could be a game changing combo.

Of course, this is unlikely to happen since it would require re-releasing of 2 sets, which is prohibitively expensive and probably not worth it. But maybe someday they'll be re-released for other reasons and this can be included.
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infangthief

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2018, 05:05:58 am »
+1

Iron cards give you 1 of 3 effects based on the type of another card:

+1 action for action cards
+1 coin for treasure cards
+1 card for victory cards

It's always bugged me a little that there was no way to get the 4th basic effect, buys, out of Iron cards. But it made sense, there were only 3 basic card types to attach effects to, and buys are the least generally useful. But all that changed with Nocturne, which introduce a fourth basic card type: Night. Making Night cards give you buys would be nice for a couple of reasons:

It makes it so Iron cards can give you all 4 basic effects, something about that just feels right to me.
It makes it so Night cards don't interact so poorly with Iron cards, currently they're effectively dead cards like curses.
The incidence rates would work well, on some boards a single +buy can be game changing, getting a Night card and an Iron card together would be pretty rare but when it did happen it could be a game changing combo.

Of course, this is unlikely to happen since it would require re-releasing of 2 sets, which is prohibitively expensive and probably not worth it. But maybe someday they'll be re-released for other reasons and this can be included.
Interesting idea.

One reason for not doing it is the general policy that card instructions don't refer to things that are specific to other expansions. So an "Iron" card in Nocturnes could have used Night cards in this way, sure, but Ironworks/Ironmonger would not.

I have sometimes wondered something similar, but with Curse being the 4th type, that could give +Buy. Ironmonger or Tribute might reveal a Curse, and it would be neat to find yourself in the unlikely situation where the correct play was to gain Curses with your Ironworks just to get the +Buys.
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faust

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2018, 06:04:38 am »
+4

It could always be "+buy if none of the above", so it would work for Curses, Night cards and Hovel.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2018, 07:17:21 am »
0

Do you mean 'Ironworks and Ironmonger'?
Are there any others?
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Holunder9

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2018, 07:26:41 am »
0

It would be a cool retroactive fix. I'd restrict it to Night cards though as Ironmonger, which is already a powerful card, would become too good if revealing Curses would give you extra Buys.
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infangthief

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 09:11:27 am »
+6

Do you mean 'Ironworks and Ironmonger'?
Are there any others?
Irontribute (first edition of Irontrigue)
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crj

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 10:19:57 am »
0

It could always be "+buy if none of the above", so it would work for Curses, Night cards and Hovel.
It would be a bit sad to lose the nifty benefit of multi-type cards.

I quite like this idea. It "feels" so right I almost don't care how it plays. (-8
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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 12:42:51 pm »
0

I think it depends on if Night cards are a Nocturne only thing or if they are coming back. If they’re just Nocturne, other set’s cards probably won’t reference them.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 06:51:39 pm »
+1

It could always be "+buy if none of the above", so it would work for Curses, Night cards and Hovel.
It would be a bit sad to lose the nifty benefit of multi-type cards.

I quite like this idea. It "feels" so right I almost don't care how it plays. (-8

I think with this wording could be interpreted as "+buy if the card has a type that is not Action, Treasure or Victory," so Multi-types would still give multiple benefits. This would also mean that other types like Attack and Duration would also give +buy.

Do you mean 'Ironworks and Ironmonger'?
Are there any others?
Irontribute (first edition of Irontrigue)

Sacrironfice from Empirons also possibly counts.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 06:53:45 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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geeday

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 03:42:23 am »
0

My feeling is that Curse shouldn't give you anything with Iron cards. It fits with Curses being punishment, and would probably make Iron cards too good with cursers in play. Night cards, on the other hand, aren't punishments, so it seems in keeping that they provide some benefit.

In terms of Night being a Nocturne only thing, I'm actually curious to see if it will be. New card types are one of the only things that do seem to stick across multiple expansions. I.e. Duration cards.
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infangthief

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2018, 04:21:31 am »
0

In terms of Night being a Nocturne only thing, I'm actually curious to see if it will be. New card types are one of the only things that do seem to stick across multiple expansions. I.e. Duration cards.
According to http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Card_types, we have:

Basic types:
Action • Treasure • Victory • Curse
Multi-expansion special types:
Attack • Duration • Reaction
Single-expansion special types:
Prize • Shelter • Ruins • Looter • Knight • Reserve • Traveller • Gathering • Castle • Night • Heirloom • Fate • Doom • Spirit • Zombie

Lots of special card types. The things that makes "Night" stand out from the other special types are:
- it is the only one that appears on cards on its own. (Note that we could also theoretically have a pure "Reaction" card, but we don't.)
- it is the only one that comes with its own turn phase.

Of the single-expansion types, "Night" does seem the most likely to reappear in future expansions. (Apart from "Night", I reckon "Reserve" and "Traveller" stand the best chances).

How Basic is Night?
Are Dominion turns "4-phase", or "3-phase + Night phase"?

[EDIT: Removed the link to Baldrick learning addition].
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:15:35 am by infangthief »
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crj

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2018, 07:29:30 am »
+2

That categorisation on the wiki seems slightly muddled. To me, it seems to conflate two different ways of categorising card types: by prevalence, and by function.

By prevalence, Attack and Reaction are types which appear in all sets and the base rules. I'd say they were "basic".

By function, there are types which:
• say in what circumstances you can play a card: Action, Treasure, Night
• qualify how a card is played: Duration, Reserve, Traveller
• indicate a card has some kind of special trigger: Reaction
• indicate a card matters during game-end scoring: Victory, Curse
• affect game setup and tear-down: Shelter, Looter, Gathering, Heirloom, Fate, Doom, Zombie
• exist to facilitate the wording of other effects: Attack, Prize, Ruins, Knight, Castle, Spirit
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crj

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2018, 07:30:39 am »
+2

My feeling is that Curse shouldn't give you anything with Iron cards.
With Ironworks, it'd have to give you something a damn sight better than +1 Buy to be worthwhile!
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ConMan

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2018, 07:31:12 pm »
0

That categorisation on the wiki seems slightly muddled. To me, it seems to conflate two different ways of categorising card types: by prevalence, and by function.
I'm ok with the categorisation, except that I'd consider the "Special types" to be "Secondary types", as in "Types that never appear on their own" (even though, as noted, a pure Reaction card is theoretically possible).
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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2018, 09:02:56 pm »
0

The categorization on the wiki is roughly in terms of “how important is it for you to know what these are?”
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GendoIkari

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2018, 11:11:17 pm »
+1

To me, Night is clearly a “Basic type”; but as it’s only part of 1 expansion, the Wiki seems fine to keep it with the other single-expansion types.

I see Basic types as types that have rules attached to cards telling you what you can do with them. This means these types:

Action (you can play this during the action phase)
Treasure (you can play this during the buy phase)
Night (you can play this during the night phase)
Victory (you count this in your score at the end of the game)

I’d include Curse also, because the type also tells you to count it in your score at the end of the game. It could have technically just been a VP card for the exact same effect, but that would have been more confusing for people.

All the other types exist for convenience, either to remind you of something (duration, reserve, reaction); or to allow mechanics to to involve types (attack, knight, castle).
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infangthief

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2018, 03:26:56 am »
0

To me, Night is clearly a “Basic type”; but as it’s only part of 1 expansion, the Wiki seems fine to keep it with the other single-expansion types.

I see Basic types as types that have rules attached to cards telling you what you can do with them. This means these types:

Action (you can play this during the action phase)
Treasure (you can play this during the buy phase)
Night (you can play this during the night phase)
Victory (you count this in your score at the end of the game)

I’d include Curse also, because the type also tells you to count it in your score at the end of the game. It could have technically just been a VP card for the exact same effect, but that would have been more confusing for people.

All the other types exist for convenience, either to remind you of something (duration, reserve, reaction); or to allow mechanics to to involve types (attack, knight, castle).

I think that's a good summary.

Some questions for clarification:
- Does "Duration" have rules attached? i.e. is it "Duration cards stay out until the clean-up phase of the last turn in which they do something", or is it "Cards stay out until the clean-up phase of the last turn in which they do something (and 'Duration' is just there as a helpful reminder)"?
- It almost follows from your summary that every card must have at least one basic type, otherwise you can't do anything with it. But in order for that to be true we would need to include "Reaction" as a basic type. Do you think "Reaction" should be a basic type? i.e. "Reaction (you can do things with this in the particular situations described on the card)".

[EDIT: So with your list of basic types, I think Hovel is the only published card without a basic type. But actually, even if "Reaction" were to be counted as a basic type, we could still potentially have a card without any basic type. Eg Duchess without the above-the-line bit. Or more simply the Confusion cards Donald has referred to in secret histories.]
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:41:09 am by infangthief »
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GendoIkari

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2018, 08:23:07 am »
+2

Duration does have the “stay out” rule attached (that’s why Possession does not stay out but Outpost does). But even with that rule attached, it doesn’t feel like nearly as primary a rule as when you can play a card.

It’s not completely clear, but I don’t believe reaction has any rules attached. Cards like Fortress and Duchess do things at not-normal times without needing to be reactions. Donald has said that the reason for the type is to give the color; so that players can easily see that there is something special in their hand. But I can’t think of a good reason that a card that is identical to Moat except without the reaction type wouldn’t still be able to be revealed to prevent attacks.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 02:47:03 pm by GendoIkari »
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crj

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2018, 08:33:19 am »
0

I'd agree that Moat would work identically without the reaction type.

By my understanding, the Reaction type is given to cards which react "at a distance", i.e. to things happening which otherwise wouldn't involve them. Fortress doesn't need to be a Reaction, because it's "when you trash this"; Market Square does need to be, because it's "When one of your cards is trashed".

(As an aside, I'm now wondering why there's the "when you trash..." v. "when ... is trashed" difference between Fortress and Market Square's wording.)
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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2018, 09:39:34 am »
+1

(As an aside, I'm now wondering why there's the "when you trash..." v. "when ... is trashed" difference between Fortress and Market Square's wording.)
I think it may be there to avoid an unwanted interaction between Market Square and Lurker.
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infangthief

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2018, 10:18:01 am »
0

Duration doesn have the “stay out” rule attached (that’s why Possession does not stay out but Outpost does). But even with that rule attached, it doesn’t feel like nearly as primary a rule as when you can play a card.
Ok, right, so I think adding "Duration" to Possession would cause it to stay out, which shows that "Duration" is not merely a reminder. But a change like that would be similar to adding "Attack" to Council Room (or any other card) - it would change some things but wouldn't change anything as fundamental as when you can play the card.

(By the way, I got really thrown by your "doesn" - read it as 'doesn't', but actually you mean 'does' right? what a way to hedge your bets!)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 10:21:57 am by infangthief »
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crj

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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2018, 10:20:16 am »
0

I think it may be there to avoid an unwanted interaction between Market Square and Lurker.
That's the reason for "one of your cards" instead of "a card", no? It could still say "when you trash one of your cards" instead of "when one of your cards is trashed". So far as I'm aware, only you can trash your cards (though something another player does may instruct you to do so involuntarily).
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Re: If Iron cards were made today would Night give you buys?
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2018, 06:01:36 pm »
0

Having +Buy that's conditional on your Ironmonger revealing a night card seems pathological.  Perhaps not any worse than Forest's Gift being the only source of +Buy, but still.
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