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Author Topic: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn  (Read 553 times)

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Asper

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Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« on: June 27, 2018, 04:11:49 am »
+9

Usually you can reveal a Reaction infinite times to the same trigger. Judging from the online implementation, when you react with Tunnel, it is revealed from your discard pile and returned there before the Gold is gained.

Before in a discussion on the forums I argued that Tunnel can only gain one Gold because it is subsequently covered up by Gold, disabling you to reveal it again as it lost track of itself. However, in games with Possession, that Gold may never visit your discard pile...

So, why can't I reveal Tunnel infinite times on a Possession turn? Is that because in Tunnel's case we know it's the same copy? Or is it just Possession being weird?

GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2018, 10:39:46 am »
0

As far as I understand, even on a regular turn Tunnel has its own special rules. Lose track only prevents you from moving cards; it doesn't prevent you from revealing them. So based on a literal reading of all official rules, I believe Tunnel can be revealed multiple times to gain unlimited gold.

The Possession case just helps make it extra clear that Tunnel is special, because you can no longer incorrectly think that lose-track is the reason you can't reveal it multiple times.

The Wiki lists as an "other rules clarification":

Quote
You can only reveal a given copy of Tunnel once per discard. That is, you can't discard one Tunnel, reveal it twice, and get two Golds.

As far as I know, that rule clarification (I assume given somewhere), along with common sense, is the only reason that you can't reveal Tunnel multiple times.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 10:47:02 am by GendoIkari »
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werothegreat

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2018, 11:06:59 am »
+1

After you reveal a Moat, it goes back to your hand.  It is then not clear to all whether, if you reveal another Moat, it was the same as the first one.  You are allowed to reveal Moat multiple times because there's no RAW way to check if that's the same Moat or a different one.

After you reveal Tunnel, it is now in your discard pile, and pretty clearly the Tunnel you discarded.  You may as well ask why you can't get infinite Coppers when you gain a Cache, it's the same sort of deal.
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Asper

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2018, 11:27:19 am »
+1

GendoIkari:
I know that lose track applies to moving only. However, simply from a common sense perspective, how would you reveal something to another player that you can't find?

werothegreat:
You may as well ask why you can't get infinite Coppers when you gain a Cache, it's the same sort of deal.

Cache isn't a Reaction. Neither is Cultist. Still, we have Reactions on cards being gained or trashed, and they can react multiple times. Tunnel gets discarded, making it visible for everyone. So you could argue it doesn't follow actual Reaction rules. But that kind of poses the question whether Tunnel has the Reaction type just to be nice to players and give them an extra hint.

GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 11:37:57 am »
0

After you reveal a Moat, it goes back to your hand.  It is then not clear to all whether, if you reveal another Moat, it was the same as the first one.  You are allowed to reveal Moat multiple times because there's no RAW way to check if that's the same Moat or a different one.

After you reveal Tunnel, it is now in your discard pile, and pretty clearly the Tunnel you discarded.  You may as well ask why you can't get infinite Coppers when you gain a Cache, it's the same sort of deal.

While it may be true that the reason for infinite-reacting being the rule is due to the fact that you can't prove whether it is the same Moat or not, the fact is that infinite-reacting is the rule, and it applies even to situations where that reason doesn't apply. For example, if you got a Moat from the Black Market.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2018, 11:38:40 am »
+1

GendoIkari:
I know that lose track applies to moving only. However, simply from a common sense perspective, how would you reveal something to another player that you can't find?


Right, this is what I meant in the other thread when I said that Tunnel was broken. If played literally according to known rules, it is impossible to play. You're forced to break some rule.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 11:53:31 am »
+2

Is it possible that the rule is actually that a reaction in your hand can be revealed any number of times in response to the same event? According to the Wiki there aren't specific rules laid out for reactions; but rather things like the multi-reveal trick of Secret Chamber are clarified in the Secret Chamber FAQ. Is there an example of a reaction that you can reveal multiple times from somewhere other than your hand?
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Asper

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2018, 12:49:50 pm »
0

Is it possible that the rule is actually that a reaction in your hand can be revealed any number of times in response to the same event? According to the Wiki there aren't specific rules laid out for reactions; but rather things like the multi-reveal trick of Secret Chamber are clarified in the Secret Chamber FAQ. Is there an example of a reaction that you can reveal multiple times from somewhere other than your hand?

I think there are barely any Reactions that are revealed from somewhere else than your hand, actually. Faithful Hound is the only one I can think of, and it sets itself aside.

Gazbag

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2018, 12:53:23 pm »
+2

It does seem like you could exploit this when discarding multiple cards right? Like discarding 1 Tunnel and some Coppers to Warehouse and then lying and revealing the same Tunnel 3 times because the Coppers are hidden from the other players?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2018, 01:05:02 pm »
0

It does seem like you could exploit this when discarding multiple cards right? Like discarding 1 Tunnel and some Coppers to Warehouse and then lying and revealing the same Tunnel 3 times because the Coppers are hidden from the other players?

Excellent point.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2018, 02:31:57 pm »
0

Reveal isn't a mandatory part of the Reaction rules either; at least not as a rule clause on the card.

Faithful Hound doesn't need to be revealed; probably because set aside cards are revealed?
Market Square also doesn't have reveal in its rule, even though its bottom half is most definitely a Tunnel variation; presumably, this is because Tunnel's trigger and its effect are so close to each other; in essence Tunnel could read "when you discard this, if it is not your Clean-up, you may discard this to gain a Gold instead" but that's not awkward at all.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2018, 02:42:53 pm »
0

Please also note that the Secret History of Diplomat implies that discarding a card breaks the cycle:
The bottom originally gave a Silver when you gained or trashed a card. You had to discard it, so you couldn't gain the pile instantly (a once-per-turn approach was another option).

Of course there is danger in taking an unpublished version of a card's word for it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 02:46:53 pm »
0

Please also note that the Secret History of Diplomat implies that discarding a card breaks the cycle:
The bottom originally gave a Silver when you gained or trashed a card. You had to discard it, so you couldn't gain the pile instantly (a once-per-turn approach was another option).

Of course there is danger in taking an unpublished version of a card's word for it.

Market Square and Horse Traders already tell us the same thing. All Donald was saying was that a Diplomat that gave a Silver would have had to been discarded, not just revealed, the same way Market Square is.
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Donald X.

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2018, 03:41:50 pm »
+5

Usually you can reveal a Reaction infinite times to the same trigger. Judging from the online implementation, when you react with Tunnel, it is revealed from your discard pile and returned there before the Gold is gained.

Before in a discussion on the forums I argued that Tunnel can only gain one Gold because it is subsequently covered up by Gold, disabling you to reveal it again as it lost track of itself. However, in games with Possession, that Gold may never visit your discard pile...

So, why can't I reveal Tunnel infinite times on a Possession turn? Is that because in Tunnel's case we know it's the same copy? Or is it just Possession being weird?
The weird case is actually Moat rather than Tunnel. Sure it's weird that Tunnel needs to be revealed from a place that cards aren't normally revealed from, and as mentioned maybe "as you discard this" or something would have been clearer, though in practice absolutely no-one ever has trouble correctly resolving Tunnel, so there's that.

"When x happens, do y" means that y happens exactly once per x. When you pass Go, collect $200; you don't get all the money in the bank.

Tunnel happens when you discard it; it happens once per time you discard it. You gain one Gold, not all the Gold in the pile.

In the case of Moat however, the Moat goes back to your hand, and maybe there's another reaction you want to reveal too, oh a Secret Chamber. And we can't see your hand so we let you re-use e.g. the same Secret Chamber. So normally, "when x" creates a window of time for doing things that happen then, and each thing can happen just once, but the Moat family get to happen multiple times.

I have previously cited this as a mistake and still do. I should have done reactions as "when x happens you may play this" (and lived with that killing some while enabling others). They were like that once! I changed them because Moat was weak and there weren't very many reactions. Then Secret Chamber created a situation where we wouldn't know if the card was the same and that's how I ruled it worked.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:19:55 pm by Donald X. »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2018, 04:25:28 pm »
0

Is it possible that the rule is actually that a reaction in your hand can be revealed any number of times in response to the same event? According to the Wiki there aren't specific rules laid out for reactions; but rather things like the multi-reveal trick of Secret Chamber are clarified in the Secret Chamber FAQ. Is there an example of a reaction that you can reveal multiple times from somewhere other than your hand?

Confirmed!
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werothegreat

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2018, 04:40:24 pm »
0

Is it possible that the rule is actually that a reaction in your hand can be revealed any number of times in response to the same event? According to the Wiki there aren't specific rules laid out for reactions; but rather things like the multi-reveal trick of Secret Chamber are clarified in the Secret Chamber FAQ. Is there an example of a reaction that you can reveal multiple times from somewhere other than your hand?

Confirmed!

Sort of.  Donald X basically just said exactly what I said earlier.  That you're allowed to reveal Moat multiple times because it's not necessarily the same Moat.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2018, 05:05:52 pm »
0

Is it possible that the rule is actually that a reaction in your hand can be revealed any number of times in response to the same event? According to the Wiki there aren't specific rules laid out for reactions; but rather things like the multi-reveal trick of Secret Chamber are clarified in the Secret Chamber FAQ. Is there an example of a reaction that you can reveal multiple times from somewhere other than your hand?

Confirmed!

Sort of.  Donald X basically just said exactly what I said earlier.  That you're allowed to reveal Moat multiple times because it's not necessarily the same Moat.

Right; I think we both said the same thing (you said it first). But you can still reveal Moat multiple times if you bought Moat from the Black Market* (or Secret Chamber if you want an example where it actually matters). So the actual rule comes down to "when it is in your hand."


*I think, anyway... it would just have to be an awkwardly-worded rule to deal with such situations, rather than simply using the blanket "in your hand" approach.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:07:01 pm by GendoIkari »
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werothegreat

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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2018, 05:12:35 pm »
0

Is it possible that the rule is actually that a reaction in your hand can be revealed any number of times in response to the same event? According to the Wiki there aren't specific rules laid out for reactions; but rather things like the multi-reveal trick of Secret Chamber are clarified in the Secret Chamber FAQ. Is there an example of a reaction that you can reveal multiple times from somewhere other than your hand?

Confirmed!

Sort of.  Donald X basically just said exactly what I said earlier.  That you're allowed to reveal Moat multiple times because it's not necessarily the same Moat.

Right; I think we both said the same thing (you said it first). But you can still reveal Moat multiple times if you bought Moat from the Black Market* (or Secret Chamber if you want an example where it actually matters). So the actual rule comes down to "when it is in your hand."


*I think, anyway... it would just have to be an awkwardly-worded rule to deal with such situations, rather than simply using the blanket "in your hand" approach.

I mean, Black Market just fucks with everything, so
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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2018, 05:36:01 pm »
0

Is it possible that the rule is actually that a reaction in your hand can be revealed any number of times in response to the same event? According to the Wiki there aren't specific rules laid out for reactions; but rather things like the multi-reveal trick of Secret Chamber are clarified in the Secret Chamber FAQ. Is there an example of a reaction that you can reveal multiple times from somewhere other than your hand?

Confirmed!

Sort of.  Donald X basically just said exactly what I said earlier.  That you're allowed to reveal Moat multiple times because it's not necessarily the same Moat.

Right; I think we both said the same thing (you said it first). But you can still reveal Moat multiple times if you bought Moat from the Black Market* (or Secret Chamber if you want an example where it actually matters). So the actual rule comes down to "when it is in your hand."


*I think, anyway... it would just have to be an awkwardly-worded rule to deal with such situations, rather than simply using the blanket "in your hand" approach.

I mean, Black Market just fucks with everything, so

Itís not only Black Market. What about when there are still 9 Moats in the supply (public knowledge). Or a hypothetical prize-reaction?
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Re: Infinite Tunnel reveals on a Possession turn
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2018, 12:37:54 pm »
0

All this has been covered several times. "Revealing a card several cards from your hand" goes back to this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/755134/tunnel-card

Everything else about the weirdness of Tunnel was brought up here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7860.0
But also goes back to, and is dealt with in even more detail, here: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/854026/playing-multiple-reaction-cards
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