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Author Topic: Is Guardian useless without attacks?  (Read 11370 times)

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Holunder9

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2018, 05:55:43 pm »
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Holunder9:

Thanks, I am setting you to ignore. Please react as you see fit.
I guess you meant that you set me to Mute.
I hope that you learn the difference between Peddler and Copper one day though. Might be a useful block heuristic.  8)
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traces Around

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2018, 10:46:05 pm »
+1

If we're talking about problems with this forum, how many accounts is this for you now?

It's getting hard to count the banned ones.

werothegreat

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2018, 11:20:22 pm »
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I have no idea what "block heuristics" are. Doesn't seem to be related to boardgaming.
But at least I know the difference between Peddler and Copper.

Block Heuristics are a type of mathematical formalism that relates to how to efficiently span a space with like or dissimilar elements.
As I expected, totally unrelated to Guardian.  8)

A heuristic is basically a rule of thumb: the idea "don't buy a $3 unless it's better for your deck than Silver" is a heuristic.  What jomini was saying was that it's better to understand the broader strategy of Dominion, rather than focusing on specific card combos or card-specific adages.  So actually it had quite a lot to do with Guardian.
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Holunder9

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2018, 02:17:31 am »
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I have no idea what "block heuristics" are. Doesn't seem to be related to boardgaming.
But at least I know the difference between Peddler and Copper.

Block Heuristics are a type of mathematical formalism that relates to how to efficiently span a space with like or dissimilar elements.
As I expected, totally unrelated to Guardian.  8)

A heuristic is basically a rule of thumb: the idea "don't buy a $3 unless it's better for your deck than Silver" is a heuristic.  What jomini was saying was that it's better to understand the broader strategy of Dominion, rather than focusing on specific card combos or card-specific adages.  So actually it had quite a lot to do with Guardian.
That's the opposite of what he was saying. He argued for the importance of analyzing edge cases while not understanding general stuff like the difference between a Peddler and a Copper whereas I argued for the latter, getting fundamental stuff right before delving into the rare cases in which a bad card is actually good.

If you don't get the basic stuff about Guardian right, i.e. that it is on-play a delayed Copper and that it is only good due to the on-gain effect in Kingdoms without attacks, all the babbling about block heuristics boils down to using fancy language that is void of content.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2018, 06:59:36 am »
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Just chiming in to note one interesting moment I had with Guardian and no attacks. I had the $2/$7 opening with Cursed Gold, and could use a Guardian buy Turn 1 to Donate Turn 2 and pay off all debt right away, leaving 5 coppers, allowing me to Windfall Turn 3.

I started to call that out as an edge case but I think that's the point we're getting across here. Is guardian useless without attacks? Pretty much, but there are edge cases.

I have never quite understood the board's obsession with calling out "edge case". We are well past the point where just seeing a given card is relatively rare. Seeing a given pair of cards is "edge case" for most definitions of the term in general.

The important thing is not knowing how rare something is, but knowing why the "edge case" makes the card good. Spiking cash for an early Donate/Windfall? Not terribly dissimilar from spiking $7 with a $2/5 for Baker/Inheritance or Cursed gold/Forge. Frankly, it is the same analysis that leads to much more common uses like $3/4 openings letting you open a power trashing $5 (e.g. Junk dealer, Count). It is more obvious in the "edge case", but still true regardless.


Knowing why is much more satisfying that just memorizing block heuristics. It also is much more helpful for learning the tempo of the gain and the opportunity cost portion of strategy.


There is precious little about Dominion that is not made clearer by consider edge cases that make interactions, opportunity costs, and the like clearer.

I'd agree with most of what you just said, particularly with the importance of understanding the Whys behinds the Whats.

The reason I think edge cases can be addressed but not emphasized comes down to that, actually, and has more to do with talking and learning about Dominion than playing any one game. As you say, there are infinite possibilities at this point, so if we allow for edge cases to dictate general points on the game, everything is true and you can't glean any insights.

For example, I say it's bad to be hit by Militia. Someone comes back with " but what if you get to discard Tunnels?"
While that is relevant context to that game, and understanding why can lead us to insights, it's probably not super helpful to include it in a general discussion on what Militia does.

Everything is true in Dominion, but it is not true all the time. This is the value of finding an edge case - where something is unquestioningly true - and then walking back to the point where it becomes marginal. $2/$7 openings cross a threshold that is unambiguous. $3/4 becoming $2/5 is still pretty robust. $5/2 giving you much better odds of hitting $5/2/5 is less a sure thing but is perfectly doable (e.g. Upgrade/Grand market). We can see the pattern, say when we start getting queasy, and then move on from there.

Rather than saying "that's an edge case" the next task after someone posts an edge case should always be "so how much of an edge case do we actually need?"

Knowing when something will be true is a very useful skill.

Fair point
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2018, 11:49:38 am »
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If we're talking about problems with this forum, how many accounts is this for you now?

It's getting hard to count the banned ones.

Oh man, this is a good trivia question. I remember Tristan, then Weety4, then I go blank. Lemme research to find the definitive list.
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I feel like there was a fifth one recently though, anybody have any ideas?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2018, 01:20:53 pm »
+1

Was horatio83 not the same person?
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trivialknot

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2018, 01:41:23 pm »
+1

Also josh56.

I very sincerely recommend putting people on your ignore list.  It sounds like kind of a mean and hostile thing to do, but in fact it makes the world a nicer and brighter place for all.  The ignore list is hard to find, so for the benefit of those who can't find it... click "profile" on the top, then "buddies/ignore list" on the sidebar, then press "edit ignore list" and type in the user's name.
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pacovf

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2018, 01:50:54 pm »
+1

Was horatio83 not the same person?

No. Awaclus kept pushing that, but I think theory disproved it with some IP technomagic.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2018, 03:11:01 pm »
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Also josh56.

I very sincerely recommend putting people on your ignore list.  It sounds like kind of a mean and hostile thing to do, but in fact it makes the world a nicer and brighter place for all.  The ignore list is hard to find, so for the benefit of those who can't find it... click "profile" on the top, then "buddies/ignore list" on the sidebar, then press "edit ignore list" and type in the user's name.

"Adding members to these lists will, amongst other things, help control mail and PM traffic"

What does it do exactly?
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Chris is me

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2018, 03:28:00 pm »
+1

Was horatio83 not the same person?

Using a proxy isn’t rocket science.
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pacovf

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2018, 05:35:14 pm »
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Was horatio83 not the same person?

Using a proxy isn’t rocket science.

I think it had more to do with the patterns the previous accounts had, and that weren’t exhibited by Horatio83. But meh.
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crj

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2018, 08:57:38 pm »
+2

It's probably for the best if people who have a shrewd idea how one might tell if two users were the same person, particularly theory, didn't divulge their techniques...
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samath

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2018, 02:25:54 am »
+2

Just chiming in to note one interesting moment I had with Guardian and no attacks. I had the $2/$7 opening with Cursed Gold, and could use a Guardian buy Turn 1 to Donate Turn 2 and pay off all debt right away, leaving 5 coppers, allowing me to Windfall Turn 3.
I'll just note that if you had any other opening, you could have Donated Turn 1 to 5 Coppers, paid off Debt on Turn 2, and bought Windfall on Turn 3, the same turn as you were able to do so. The only thing the one-time Guardian did was save you from a super unlucky opening hand -- and it wouldn't have done so if there didn't also happen to be Pooka in the kingdom. It's clearly not nothing -- this was probably the correct play for you, but it isn't nearly as advantageous as, say, spiking an early Inheritance would be.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Is Guardian useless without attacks?
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2018, 02:17:25 pm »
+2

I just bought a Guardian in a no-Attack game to try to spike a final Province. It didn't work, but I did buy it.
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