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Author Topic: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp  (Read 851 times)

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ehunt

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summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« on: June 25, 2018, 10:38:19 pm »
+1

I just tried to summon a death cart for a burst of five coin goodness and was disappointed to learn of this ruling. I get the logic with the current way the Lose Track rule is worded, but ugh. I'd like an appeals committee or something, here.
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silvern

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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2018, 11:25:53 pm »
+1

I am somewhat of the opinion that the Lose Track rule was made in order to arbitrate ambiguous decisions in a way which aligns with common sense and THUS in situations where common sense is violated like this, something is wrong with the rule, not the common sense (which the rule ought to preserve)! But I do get that dominion, especially online, should be as precise as possible.

(Wittgenstein once remarked something similar regarding Russell and Whitehead's Principia Mathematica, an attempt to ground arithmetic in the rules of logic (the work, famously, takes many dozens of pages before even proving that 1+1=2). He noted that basic arithmetic couldn't possibly be grounded in such a project, for if their logical structure told us something that contradicted a basic belief about arithmetic, we would automatically assume that it was their work that was wrong, not our naďvw arithmetical beliefs.)
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2018, 11:38:46 pm »
+2

I don’t see ignoring lose track here as “common sense”. If the discard pile were allowed to be looked through you’d have more of an argument, but since it cannot be, you can’t “go get” that Death Cart anyway, so it make sense that the game loses track of it.
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silvern

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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2018, 11:57:21 pm »
+4

that's very fair!

That said, if you explained all the basic rules of dominion to someone, and then set them up with a game in which this situation occurred, I doubt that anyone but the most precision oriented person would even think that something funky might possibly occur. Pretty much everyone, I imagine, would just set aside the death cart.

Maybe i'm wrong on this point though. I guess we could run it as an experiment and find out....
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2018, 05:00:38 am »
+2

If you trash/top-deck each ruin using Watchtower or Royal Seal, then Death Cart is sitting there on top of your discard pile when Summon tries to set it aside.
But Summon has still lost-track of Death Cart, right?

I suppose you just have to keep track of which cards/events have lost-track of which other cards...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:04:40 am by infangthief »
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 08:43:05 am »
0

If you trash/top-deck each ruin using Watchtower or Royal Seal, then Death Cart is sitting there on top of your discard pile when Summon tries to set it aside.
But Summon has still lost-track of Death Cart, right?

I suppose you just have to keep track of which cards/events have lost-track of which other cards...

For WT/RS, you still need to gain the Ruins first, into your discard pile, thus you still lose track.  You would need to prevent the gain of the Ruins in the first place.

However, Nomad Camp can be Summoned, as it is not lost track of - it just has a different gain destination.
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GendoIkari

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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2018, 10:21:26 am »
+1

If I understand it right, the difference between Death Cart and Nomad Camp in this particular case isn't that Nomad Camp has a different gain destination, but that Death Cart has cards that come with it that cover it up. It's the Ruins that are causing you to lose track; I don't see why Nomad Camp would potentially have a similar issue.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2018, 10:57:16 am »
0

If I understand it right, the difference between Death Cart and Nomad Camp in this particular case isn't that Nomad Camp has a different gain destination, but that Death Cart has cards that come with it that cover it up. It's the Ruins that are causing you to lose track; I don't see why Nomad Camp would potentially have a similar issue.

It wouldn't fail for the same reason, but this makes me think about how there seems to be an implicit assumption that Summon looks for the gained card at the card's default gain location (whether that default location is the discard, top of deck, or the hand if there were any night-action cards that were gained to hand). Is Summon meant to work with Nomad Camp?
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2018, 11:17:09 am »
0

If I understand it right, the difference between Death Cart and Nomad Camp in this particular case isn't that Nomad Camp has a different gain destination, but that Death Cart has cards that come with it that cover it up. It's the Ruins that are causing you to lose track; I don't see why Nomad Camp would potentially have a similar issue.

It wouldn't fail for the same reason, but this makes me think about how there seems to be an implicit assumption that Summon looks for the gained card at the card's default gain location (whether that default location is the discard, top of deck, or the hand if there were any night-action cards that were gained to hand). Is Summon meant to work with Nomad Camp?

I can’t answer “meant to”, but it sure does work - the card is where Summon expects it to be.
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GendoIkari

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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2018, 11:49:27 am »
0

If I understand it right, the difference between Death Cart and Nomad Camp in this particular case isn't that Nomad Camp has a different gain destination, but that Death Cart has cards that come with it that cover it up. It's the Ruins that are causing you to lose track; I don't see why Nomad Camp would potentially have a similar issue.

It wouldn't fail for the same reason, but this makes me think about how there seems to be an implicit assumption that Summon looks for the gained card at the card's default gain location (whether that default location is the discard, top of deck, or the hand if there were any night-action cards that were gained to hand). Is Summon meant to work with Nomad Camp?

I can’t answer “meant to”, but it sure does work - the card is where Summon expects it to be.

Right, I believe the rule for lose track always deals with when a card has been moved or covered up. When Summon looks for the card that was just gained; Summon doesn't "know" that cards are gained to the discard pile as a general rule. It's going off of wherever the card was gained to.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2018, 12:26:56 pm »
+3

It feels to me like it would solve several wrinkles without any downsides if each player's discards were an unordered collection of face-up cards that they could inspect and rearrange at any time, provided they always left at least one of the cards visible to the other players.

I don't feel that turning Dominion into a memory game adds much to it, so have never been thrilled about the need to remember what I've discarded. And I don't see why anything need lose track of discarded cards just because other cards have been discarded, or even fished out of the discards.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2018, 12:31:38 pm »
0

However, Nomad Camp can be Summoned, as it is not lost track of - it just has a different gain destination.
That makes complete sense for the new wording ("This is gained onto your deck (instead of to your discard pile)"), but what about the original wording ("When you gain this, put it on top of your deck.")?

It feels as though in that case you gain the Nomad Camp, then you move it from your discard pile to the top of your deck, then Summon looks for the card where you gained it and fails to find it there.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2018, 12:40:51 pm »
+1

That makes complete sense for the new wording ("This is gained onto your deck (instead of to your discard pile)"), but what about the original wording ("When you gain this, put it on top of your deck.")?

The original wording always worked as though it had been the new wording.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2018, 12:48:15 pm »
+1

However, Nomad Camp can be Summoned, as it is not lost track of - it just has a different gain destination.
That makes complete sense for the new wording ("This is gained onto your deck (instead of to your discard pile)"), but what about the original wording ("When you gain this, put it on top of your deck.")?

It feels as though in that case you gain the Nomad Camp, then you move it from your discard pile to the top of your deck, then Summon looks for the card where you gained it and fails to find it there.

The original wording was worded the same as other in gain effects but the manual explicitly stated it behaved differently. This was the impetus for the wording change. The card didn’t actually change behavior, it’s wording changed to make it more clear.
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Donald X.

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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2018, 03:04:56 pm »
+2

I just tried to summon a death cart for a burst of five coin goodness and was disappointed to learn of this ruling. I get the logic with the current way the Lose Track rule is worded, but ugh. I'd like an appeals committee or something, here.
Lose track has to exist due to ways you can actually lose track of cards. It needs a straightforward rule for what it means to lose track and well there it is. Summon meanwhile had to check for the card, because otherwise it might play a card that was hidden away, which is bad multiple ways.

Summon could have changed the gain-destination of the card to set-aside-land, rather than gaining it and setting it aside. That would be way more wordy and confusing, just to improve a small number of interactions.

Summon could not exist. There, now are you happy?
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2018, 03:07:05 pm »
+5

I just tried to summon a death cart for a burst of five coin goodness and was disappointed to learn of this ruling. I get the logic with the current way the Lose Track rule is worded, but ugh. I'd like an appeals committee or something, here.
Lose track has to exist due to ways you can actually lose track of cards. It needs a straightforward rule for what it means to lose track and well there it is. Summon meanwhile had to check for the card, because otherwise it might play a card that was hidden away, which is bad multiple ways.

Summon could have changed the gain-destination of the card to set-aside-land, rather than gaining it and setting it aside. That would be way more wordy and confusing, just to improve a small number of interactions.

Summon could not exist. There, now are you happy?

 :'(
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2018, 03:09:30 pm »
+2

I'm trying to think what would break if the lose-track rule didn't include covering a card in your discard pile, but only moving it from the discard pile. Does that actually cause any issues? I think it's the cover-up part of lose-track that causes the most counter-intuitive rulings.
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GendoIkari

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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2018, 04:00:10 pm »
+1

I'm trying to think what would break if the lose-track rule didn't include covering a card in your discard pile, but only moving it from the discard pile. Does that actually cause any issues? I think it's the cover-up part of lose-track that causes the most counter-intuitive rulings.

In order to get the card out of your discard pile, you have to allow for searching through your discard pile, which is not allowed.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2018, 04:26:54 pm »
+3

I'm trying to think what would break if the lose-track rule didn't include covering a card in your discard pile, but only moving it from the discard pile. Does that actually cause any issues? I think it's the cover-up part of lose-track that causes the most counter-intuitive rulings.

In order to get the card out of your discard pile, you have to allow for searching through your discard pile, which is not allowed.

one question here is, if Dominion hadn't become such a computer-heavy game where programming precisely is necessary, would anyone interpret the rule like that? It isn't like you are generally sifting through your discard; you know EXACTLY where the card is.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2018, 04:40:10 pm »
+1

I'm trying to think what would break if the lose-track rule didn't include covering a card in your discard pile, but only moving it from the discard pile. Does that actually cause any issues? I think it's the cover-up part of lose-track that causes the most counter-intuitive rulings.

In order to get the card out of your discard pile, you have to allow for searching through your discard pile, which is not allowed.

one question here is, if Dominion hadn't become such a computer-heavy game where programming precisely is necessary, would anyone interpret the rule like that? It isn't like you are generally sifting through your discard; you know EXACTLY where the card is.

Right. And if you really needed to be explicit, you could just specify in the rules that you're allowed to dig a card out of your discard pile in these situations. You could bury that rule somewhere, though. Nobody who's not a pedant is going to need it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2018, 05:32:20 pm »
0

I'm trying to think what would break if the lose-track rule didn't include covering a card in your discard pile, but only moving it from the discard pile. Does that actually cause any issues? I think it's the cover-up part of lose-track that causes the most counter-intuitive rulings.

In order to get the card out of your discard pile, you have to allow for searching through your discard pile, which is not allowed.

one question here is, if Dominion hadn't become such a computer-heavy game where programming precisely is necessary, would anyone interpret the rule like that? It isn't like you are generally sifting through your discard; you know EXACTLY where the card is.

That might be true when you gain 1 card on top of it. Death Cart has you gain 2. What if you were gaining 5? For real life play, it would by physically cumbersome to pull the third card down out of the pile without seeing what the second card down is. (And you aren’t allowed to see the second card down, even if it’s 5 seconds after you gained it).

The point of the lose track wording is to simply cover situations, both those that exist now and might exist some day later. The rule can’t be loosely worded like “you can’t move a card out of your discard pile if it has been covered up by however many cards it takes to make it difficult to retrieve that card.”
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:34:26 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2018, 05:32:53 pm »
+1

Why couldn't Summon have just been worded "Set aside an Action costing up to from the Supply", similar to Inheritance?  That does mean you acquire a card without gaining it, which could have some snags, but that issue already exists with Masquerade.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2018, 05:35:43 pm »
0

Why couldn't Summon have just been worded "Set aside an Action costing up to from the Supply", similar to Inheritance?  That does mean you acquire a card without gaining it, which could have some snags, but that issue already exists with Masquerade.

It’s not intuitive from the wording that after you play the set aside card, you would get to keep it.

*Edit* The same problem exists for Inheritence + things that count your cards at the end of the game, but that’s a much rarer situation where it matters.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:43:42 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2018, 05:59:22 pm »
+2

Why couldn't Summon have just been worded "Set aside an Action costing up to from the Supply", similar to Inheritance?  That does mean you acquire a card without gaining it, which could have some snags, but that issue already exists with Masquerade.
I don't like gaining without gaining, that's creating more rules questions than Summon / Death Cart stuff.

But, aha: "At the start of your next turn, +1 Action and gain to your hand an Action card costing up to $4." Villa and Cobbler technology. Since we don't actually play it we don't need to worry about where it is, and since we delay the gain we don't need to set it aside. You do need to remember that you bought this. And of course it's dangerous with low piles.
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Re: summon + death cart vs. summon + nomad camp
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2018, 06:12:29 pm »
0

But, aha: "At the start of your next turn, +1 Action and gain to your hand an Action card costing up to $4."
Bit of a shame to lose the opportunity for cost-reduction shenanigans. /-8
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