Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5  All

Author Topic: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box  (Read 3459 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1208
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +894
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2018, 03:51:35 pm »
0

There is a (large) middle ground between a big money strategy and a no-Treasures strategy.
Not that large, actually. You have the case where there's no better payload for the engine. But having that and still an engine that's better than BM is kind of rare. The second case is where you use money for TfB, in which case the only important thing about the Treasures is their price point and the fact that some cards gain them easily. Then there is Platinum, which is enough cash in a single card to usually work in an engine.

Wait. Even when there are "better payload" for the engine than treasures, you might need treasures as payload too. If there is no Action-based coin and no (or not enough) straight gaining, you need treasures to get cards. But you usually want the engine anyway, to attack, to trash, to get VP tokens, etc. In those cases you need treasure as payload (in addition to the other payload cards). Or what am I missing?
Yeah well, I would include the case where you get 1-2 Silvers that you then trash in the framework of "no treasure strategy". I just took that to mean "a strategy where you want Silver/Gold(/Copper) in your final deck composition".

Of course you often get 1-2 Silvers even when you want a (virtually) treasure-less deck. But you weren't talking about that and neither was I. As I said, I'm talking about the cases when you need Treasure to buy cards throughout the game. I won't specify further, because you can just re-read my post.

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7083
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9326
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2018, 05:30:25 pm »
+4

Whereas you can't tell your friends, "I like Sheep, let's play with it," because there is no card Sheep.

*surreptitiously places pile of Sheep cards from Catan next to the kingdom piles*

----

At least we have Goat and Shepherd!
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

ackmondual

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 407
  • Respect: +256
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2018, 01:19:13 pm »
0

Further complicating this is that in 1st edition Base set, gold was (arguably) the best card in the game. I'm guessing a lot of people didn't challenge that assumption and always go for gold, and try to play as many gold as possible. Gold does have it's place in today's game too. When it's not possible to build a treasureless deck, gold will provide economy. I think in some situations, having access to the treasure cards drastically speeds up the game. Gold and silver a re a fail safe that can keep a boring kingdom from being a boring and painfully slow kingdom. Keeping the game fun for as many people as possible is the goal, not making the best things for a 2 player game.
And even then, its replacement, Bandit ("Thief 2.0") STILL gives you a Gold, perpetuating that ideal.


I guess I feel like, in terms of testing cards, what's the difference between 2 players and 3+ players? Well, if a card is great in multiples, then you'll want to be sure it's not crazy if you can get 6 copies of it, like you might in a 2-player game. I think the only cards in Nocturne that fit the bill are Idol and Werewolf, though you could make an argument for Vampire. Idol is admittedly way stronger than my group thought it was, though I don't think it's too strong. And we actually discovered that it was strong after Nocturne testing was over when a new player joined our games and went for a heavy-Idol strategy. So we got to see that play out despite it not being a 2-player game.

That's interesting because I just assumed that there would be someone on the play testing team who would run a "test case" like "spam all the cards" on a card-by-card basis.  OTOH, you folks also have a lot of other use cases to get through, so I digress.

Basically, if there's a rush for something, it can disappear a lot quicker than you think!...
The only village
The only +Buys (although unlike the branch actions, you may not need as many of these)
Heavy Attack board, but Lighthouse is the only defense
Arms race to fling out curses, so rush for the Cursers

This also has the side effect of causing the game to end earlier than think...
1) One case, Ill-Gotten Gains and another card were the group's "faves" in a 4p game.  Well, IGG also empties the Curses in sync, and as that other card was emptying, it hit us that yeah, if you haven't greened up, NOW's the time!

2) In a BSW 3p game when it was just base game...
We had a rush on 3 piles.  We've managed to trash our starting Estates, but when it was down to 1 pile left, *I* had an "epiphany" where I'd better get more points, and so did that other player!  I played a Festival and managed to buy an Estate and Duchy.  Before me, one other player managed to buy 2 Estates.  The end score was me: 4, that player: 2, and p3: 0!
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 843
  • Respect: +1533
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2018, 08:47:53 am »
0

I am looking through a playtesting thread for competitive players and hey here's Stef. He preferred Chariot Race leaving the card on top. He didn't like the randomness, on the receiving end, of getting your card turned over; the randomness on the other side is simply the price you pay for going for Chariot Races. And you even get to affect that sometimes.

So it's not like there's some straight divide, competitive players preferring it one way and casual players the other.

It does seem quite likely that the amount of complaining from competitive players would be the same if Chariot Race were the other way, but I imagine some of the complainers would be different (but only some).

The other interesting wrinkle is that online players tend to play many more games, so some of these scenarios that feel swingy in small sample sizes should seem less so at a macro level.
Logged

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2018, 09:39:01 am »
0

There is a (large) middle ground between a big money strategy and a no-Treasures strategy.
Not that large, actually. You have the case where there's no better payload for the engine. But having that and still an engine that's better than BM is kind of rare. The second case is where you use money for TfB, in which case the only important thing about the Treasures is their price point and the fact that some cards gain them easily. Then there is Platinum, which is enough cash in a single card to usually work in an engine.

Wait. Even when there are "better payload" for the engine than treasures, you might need treasures as payload too. If there is no Action-based coin and no (or not enough) straight gaining, you need treasures to get cards. But you usually want the engine anyway, to attack, to trash, to get VP tokens, etc. In those cases you need treasure as payload (in addition to the other payload cards). Or what am I missing?
Yeah well, I would include the case where you get 1-2 Silvers that you then trash in the framework of "no treasure strategy". I just took that to mean "a strategy where you want Silver/Gold(/Copper) in your final deck composition".

Of course you often get 1-2 Silvers even when you want a (virtually) treasure-less deck. But you weren't talking about that and neither was I. As I said, I'm talking about the cases when you need Treasure to buy cards throughout the game. I won't specify further, because you can just re-read my post.
Ah well. But then aren't you just referring to my first case - no better payload? I thought that to include cases where there are cards that are better payload, but not enough of them (or not enough terminal space etc.), so some of your payload has to be Treasures.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 09:40:45 am by faust »
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1208
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +894
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2018, 11:01:41 am »
0

There is a (large) middle ground between a big money strategy and a no-Treasures strategy.
Not that large, actually. You have the case where there's no better payload for the engine. But having that and still an engine that's better than BM is kind of rare. The second case is where you use money for TfB, in which case the only important thing about the Treasures is their price point and the fact that some cards gain them easily. Then there is Platinum, which is enough cash in a single card to usually work in an engine.

Wait. Even when there are "better payload" for the engine than treasures, you might need treasures as payload too. If there is no Action-based coin and no (or not enough) straight gaining, you need treasures to get cards. But you usually want the engine anyway, to attack, to trash, to get VP tokens, etc. In those cases you need treasure as payload (in addition to the other payload cards). Or what am I missing?
Yeah well, I would include the case where you get 1-2 Silvers that you then trash in the framework of "no treasure strategy". I just took that to mean "a strategy where you want Silver/Gold(/Copper) in your final deck composition".

Of course you often get 1-2 Silvers even when you want a (virtually) treasure-less deck. But you weren't talking about that and neither was I. As I said, I'm talking about the cases when you need Treasure to buy cards throughout the game. I won't specify further, because you can just re-read my post.
Ah well. But then aren't you just referring to my first case - no better payload? I thought that to include cases where there are cards that are better payload, but not enough of them (or not enough terminal space etc.), so some of your payload has to be Treasures.

You said that the "middle ground" between no-Treasure and BM is small, because it includes (1) cases where there's no better payload than Treasure, (2) TfB with treasure gainers and (3) Platinum - to which I guess we can also add other special Treasures like Plunder etc.

Regarding (1), if there's no better payload than Treasure, then I agree that the engine is not worth it, I guess ever.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your new case, but I guess you mean it's not worth building an engine because you can't consistently play enough payload cards.

But my point is that there are also cases where you want to and can play payload cards as often as possible, but the only or main way of getting cards is buying them with coins from Silver and Gold. So you want the engine. I don't think that's so uncommon. Or even cases where there are Action-based coins and/or gainers, but also Silver/Gold gainers that you use in addition, to get more buying/gaining power quicker.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2018, 11:25:03 am »
0

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your new case, but I guess you mean it's not worth building an engine because you can't consistently play enough payload cards.

But my point is that there are also cases where you want to and can play payload cards as often as possible, but the only or main way of getting cards is buying them with coins from Silver and Gold. So you want the engine. I don't think that's so uncommon. Or even cases where there are Action-based coins and/or gainers, but also Silver/Gold gainers that you use in addition, to get more buying/gaining power quicker.
My point is that if you want Gold/Silver in your deck, then the engine you can build isn't usually very good. So often you might be able to build an engine, but some form of BM is better.

I don't think I ever* build engines where I want Gold/Silver gainers if there is no TfB. That's just asking for your engine to stall.

*slightly exaggerated
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1208
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +894
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2018, 12:16:00 pm »
+2

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your new case, but I guess you mean it's not worth building an engine because you can't consistently play enough payload cards.

But my point is that there are also cases where you want to and can play payload cards as often as possible, but the only or main way of getting cards is buying them with coins from Silver and Gold. So you want the engine. I don't think that's so uncommon. Or even cases where there are Action-based coins and/or gainers, but also Silver/Gold gainers that you use in addition, to get more buying/gaining power quicker.
My point is that if you want Gold/Silver in your deck, then the engine you can build isn't usually very good. So often you might be able to build an engine, but some form of BM is better.

I don't think I ever* build engines where I want Gold/Silver gainers if there is no TfB. That's just asking for your engine to stall.

*slightly exaggerated

Ok, then that just seems pretty wrong to me. If there is trashing and attacks (and actions and draw), then I usually want an engine even if the only way to gain cards is through buying them with silver and gold. Lack of +buy might make me want to reconsider, but not always.

Asper

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4744
  • Respect: +5080
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2018, 01:18:14 pm »
+1

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your new case, but I guess you mean it's not worth building an engine because you can't consistently play enough payload cards.

But my point is that there are also cases where you want to and can play payload cards as often as possible, but the only or main way of getting cards is buying them with coins from Silver and Gold. So you want the engine. I don't think that's so uncommon. Or even cases where there are Action-based coins and/or gainers, but also Silver/Gold gainers that you use in addition, to get more buying/gaining power quicker.
My point is that if you want Gold/Silver in your deck, then the engine you can build isn't usually very good. So often you might be able to build an engine, but some form of BM is better.

I don't think I ever* build engines where I want Gold/Silver gainers if there is no TfB. That's just asking for your engine to stall.

*slightly exaggerated

Ok, then that just seems pretty wrong to me. If there is trashing and attacks (and actions and draw), then I usually want an engine even if the only way to gain cards is through buying them with silver and gold. Lack of +buy might make me want to reconsider, but not always.

Is one of you talking about an engine with Gold/Silver in it and one about an engine with Gold/Silver gainers in it?

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1208
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +894
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2018, 03:37:43 pm »
0

Is one of you talking about an engine with Gold/Silver in it and one about an engine with Gold/Silver gainers in it?

I don't think so. I'm simply talking about engines worth building where you need treasure to buy your cards. Naturally, my premise was boards where you can't easily gain cards through through action-based coins or gaining. Of course this kind of engine is helped by silver/gold gainers, but I wasn't saying that that's the only viable way of building it.

(As an additional example of where treasure could be worth it as payload in an engine, I mentioned silver/gold gainers. With this I mean that even if you have action-based coins or gaining, sometimes silver/gold gainers could be worth it to get more buying/gaining power quicker.)

But since this is so difficult, let's make it real.
Let's say you have Seahag, Junk Dealer, Margrave, Village and nothing else of great consequence. There is no way to gain cards here except buying them with Silver and Gold. You're not going to be buying much purely from Junk Dealer coins! I say, build the engine. As far as I can interpret Faust, he says don't build it. I'm even more sure if you add something more worthwile, like Wild Hunt, Tournament, Bridge Troll, Highway, Groundskeeper, Enchantress, Distant Lands, Orchard, Triumphal Arch...

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2018, 03:59:49 pm »
0

But since this is so difficult, let's make it real.
Let's say you have Seahag, Junk Dealer, Margrave, Village and nothing else of great consequence. There is no way to gain cards here except buying them with Silver and Gold. You're not going to be buying much purely from Junk Dealer coins! I say, build the engine. As far as I can interpret Faust, he says don't build it. I'm even more sure if you add something more worthwile, like Wild Hunt, Tournament, Bridge Troll, Highway, Groundskeeper, Enchantress, Distant Lands, Orchard, Triumphal Arch...
I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it is very uncommon to have a board where 6 cards are of no consequence.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Holunder9

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 703
  • Respect: +284
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2018, 04:59:07 pm »
+1

Squire is the most obvious example of a card that you use in engines as a village and occasionally as a Silver gainer. Not that a glorified Necropolis is brilliant but engines are possible with Squire as the only splitter.
For example if you exchange Village with Squire in Jeebus' example the engine is probably still viable which is admittedly largely due to Margarve being so strong.

Mindlessly adding Treasures to your deck is dumb. But so is the notion that are no engines that don't need some Treasures.
As an extreme example, if there is no source of virtual coins and you somehow got some Silvers, e.g. due to Sauna, to early hit $5, via a Silver gainer or because there was situationally nothing better to buy, it is not out of this world to imagine a deck with 8 Silvers and Action cards that provide an extra buy and drawing power.
Logged

ednever

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 616
  • Respect: +677
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2018, 06:14:46 pm »
0

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your new case, but I guess you mean it's not worth building an engine because you can't consistently play enough payload cards.

But my point is that there are also cases where you want to and can play payload cards as often as possible, but the only or main way of getting cards is buying them with coins from Silver and Gold. So you want the engine. I don't think that's so uncommon. Or even cases where there are Action-based coins and/or gainers, but also Silver/Gold gainers that you use in addition, to get more buying/gaining power quicker.
My point is that if you want Gold/Silver in your deck, then the engine you can build isn't usually very good. So often you might be able to build an engine, but some form of BM is better.

I don't think I ever* build engines where I want Gold/Silver gainers if there is no TfB. That's just asking for your engine to stall.

*slightly exaggerated

Ok, then that just seems pretty wrong to me. If there is trashing and attacks (and actions and draw), then I usually want an engine even if the only way to gain cards is through buying them with silver and gold. Lack of +buy might make me want to reconsider, but not always.

Does an attack not could as a "payload", or does "payload" only mean $$s?

(i.e., could Hag or Familiar be a "payload" that you want to make sure you play a lot with an engine - but need gold for $$s?)
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1208
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +894
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2018, 06:54:11 pm »
+1

But since this is so difficult, let's make it real.
Let's say you have Seahag, Junk Dealer, Margrave, Village and nothing else of great consequence. There is no way to gain cards here except buying them with Silver and Gold. You're not going to be buying much purely from Junk Dealer coins! I say, build the engine. As far as I can interpret Faust, he says don't build it. I'm even more sure if you add something more worthwile, like Wild Hunt, Tournament, Bridge Troll, Highway, Groundskeeper, Enchantress, Distant Lands, Orchard, Triumphal Arch...
I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it is very uncommon to have a board where 6 cards are of no consequence.

And additionally then, you're saying that those 6 cards almost always provide the coins and/or gains you need so that getting treasures isn't needed.

And I'm saying that it seems to me that it's actually pretty common that the coins/gains you get from action cards is not enough to build an engine but usually you still want the engine. In your original reply to Crj, you didn't even mention this category of kingdom, and when I brought it up, you thought it was part of one of your categories, and then later you say that you virtually never play such kingdoms. It's so strange, because I feel like I play them quite often.

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1208
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +894
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2018, 06:55:57 pm »
0

Does an attack not could as a "payload", or does "payload" only mean $$s?

(i.e., could Hag or Familiar be a "payload" that you want to make sure you play a lot with an engine - but need gold for $$s?)

That's certainly how I interpret payload. Attacking, trashing, gaining, buying.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2018, 01:09:24 am »
0

But since this is so difficult, let's make it real.
Let's say you have Seahag, Junk Dealer, Margrave, Village and nothing else of great consequence. There is no way to gain cards here except buying them with Silver and Gold. You're not going to be buying much purely from Junk Dealer coins! I say, build the engine. As far as I can interpret Faust, he says don't build it. I'm even more sure if you add something more worthwile, like Wild Hunt, Tournament, Bridge Troll, Highway, Groundskeeper, Enchantress, Distant Lands, Orchard, Triumphal Arch...
I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it is very uncommon to have a board where 6 cards are of no consequence.

And additionally then, you're saying that those 6 cards almost always provide the coins and/or gains you need so that getting treasures isn't needed.

And I'm saying that it seems to me that it's actually pretty common that the coins/gains you get from action cards is not enough to build an engine but usually you still want the engine. In your original reply to Crj, you didn't even mention this category of kingdom, and when I brought it up, you thought it was part of one of your categories, and then later you say that you virtually never play such kingdoms. It's so strange, because I feel like I play them quite often.
No, the virtually never was referring to games with Gold/Silver gainers.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2018, 01:14:00 am »
0

Squire is the most obvious example of a card that you use in engines as a village and occasionally as a Silver gainer. Not that a glorified Necropolis is brilliant but engines are possible with Squire as the only splitter.
And I contend that if you're using Squire in an engine, using it to gain Silver more than once is just wrong.

Mindlessly adding Treasures to your deck is dumb. But so is the notion that are no engines that don't need some Treasures.
And noone said that.

it is not out of this world to imagine a deck with 8 Silvers and Action cards that provide an extra buy and drawing power.
It's not, but the deck you describe is not an engine.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Holunder9

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 703
  • Respect: +284
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2018, 05:46:30 am »
+2

Squire is the most obvious example of a card that you use in engines as a village and occasionally as a Silver gainer. Not that a glorified Necropolis is brilliant but engines are possible with Squire as the only splitter.
And I contend that if you're using Squire in an engine, using it to gain Silver more than once is just wrong.
Just roll with Jeebus's example of a Kingdom with Margrave, Squire and Junk Dealer. You cannot ignore Margrave and 1 or 2 Junk Dealer don't provide enough Coins. When you hit 6 you might rather buy a Junk Dealer or a Margrave so you need some Silvers via Squire.


Mindlessly adding Treasures to your deck is dumb. But so is the notion that are no engines that don't need some Treasures.
And noone said that.
You just did:
Quote
And I contend that if you're using Squire in an engine, using it to gain Silver more than once is just wrong.


it is not out of this world to imagine a deck with 8 Silvers and Action cards that provide an extra buy and drawing power.
It's not, but the deck you describe is not an engine.
So if I get this correctly your definition of engine seems to include a deck of 10 Peddlers but exclude a deck of 5 Villages, a Market Square, 4 Smithies and 8 Silvers.
Logged

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2018, 05:50:27 am »
0

it is not out of this world to imagine a deck with 8 Silvers and Action cards that provide an extra buy and drawing power.
It's not, but the deck you describe is not an engine.
So if I get this correctly your definition of engine seems to include a deck of 10 Peddlers but exclude a deck of 5 Villages, a Market Square, 4 Smithies and 8 Silvers.
No, I don't think a deck of 10 Peddlers is an engine.

The deck you describe is a very poorly executed engine: Obviously, there was trashing and Market Square. Then using Silvers for economy is just plain stupid.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2018, 05:52:12 am »
0

Mindlessly adding Treasures to your deck is dumb. But so is the notion that are no engines that don't need some Treasures.
And noone said that.
You just did:
Quote
And I contend that if you're using Squire in an engine, using it to gain Silver more than once is just wrong.
I think you have trouble parsing what I am saying and suggest that you read again.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2232
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +3124
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2018, 05:57:08 am »
0

Squire is the most obvious example of a card that you use in engines as a village and occasionally as a Silver gainer. Not that a glorified Necropolis is brilliant but engines are possible with Squire as the only splitter.
And I contend that if you're using Squire in an engine, using it to gain Silver more than once is just wrong.
Just roll with Jeebus's example of a Kingdom with Margrave, Squire and Junk Dealer. You cannot ignore Margrave and 1 or 2 Junk Dealer don't provide enough Coins. When you hit 6 you might rather buy a Junk Dealer or a Margrave so you need some Silvers via Squire.
No. If I need Silver to get more economy, I buy Silver over Squire. By the time I want Squires in my deck, I want them for +action, I also want to play Margrave every turn and clogging my deck with Silvers hinders that. I could gain Silvers to be able to play my Junk Dealers once I'm out of junk, but that is very ineffective and I doubt that a deck like described would ever have a sufficient surplus of actions or draw to make that worthwile.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Holunder9

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 703
  • Respect: +284
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2018, 06:46:23 am »
+1

Squire is the most obvious example of a card that you use in engines as a village and occasionally as a Silver gainer. Not that a glorified Necropolis is brilliant but engines are possible with Squire as the only splitter.
And I contend that if you're using Squire in an engine, using it to gain Silver more than once is just wrong.
Just roll with Jeebus's example of a Kingdom with Margrave, Squire and Junk Dealer. You cannot ignore Margrave and 1 or 2 Junk Dealer don't provide enough Coins. When you hit 6 you might rather buy a Junk Dealer or a Margrave so you need some Silvers via Squire.
No. If I need Silver to get more economy, I buy Silver over Squire. By the time I want Squires in my deck, I want them for +action, I also want to play Margrave every turn and clogging my deck with Silvers hinders that. I could gain Silvers to be able to play my Junk Dealers once I'm out of junk, but that is very ineffective and I doubt that a deck like described would ever have a sufficient surplus of actions or draw to make that worthwile.
Totally disagree. You won't buy Gold until you draw or even overdraw, when you hit 6 you will get Junk Dealers and Margraves. So Silver it is as Coin source. Not 10 but not just 1 either. If you open 5/2 you will most likely use the Squire twice or thrice to gain Silver (ignoring for the sake of argument that trashing it into a Margrave might be better). Or just exchange Squire with Lucky Coin, of course you will play it several times before you trash it.

One can imagine many more situations in which Silver gainers, no virtual coins and a draw engine go hand in hand. It is all a matter of opportunity costs: even if you prefer Gold over Silver you will take that Silver if it comes "cheaply" via a gainer and not get that Gold as getting engine pieces is more important.

We all like those engines in which everything comes from Action cards and we also like those tight engines which hit 16 every turn with some virtual coins and some Golds. Doesn't mean though that these nice engines are available in every Kingdom and something more messy and less aesthetically pleasant doesn't often happen.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1208
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +894
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2018, 07:19:11 pm »
0

Well, I just played this kingdom: Duke, Junk Dealer, Margrave, Vampire, Bank, Engineer, Farming Village, Miser, Rats, Wandering Minstrel. Both went for trashing via Rats and Junk Dealer, and village + Margrave. I also got a Vampire, but only attacked with it a few times. Nobody got Miser, I think it's too slow because you want to start attacking and trashing. So we had Vampire as a gainer and Miser as +coin, but still the main way of gaining cards was through treasure, and we each had to buy several silvers/golds. Would this be better as BM + Margrave? I don't think so. Would it be better with treasureless decks? I really don't think so.

aku_chi

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Shuffle iT Username: aku chi
  • Respect: +1255
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2018, 09:40:25 pm »
+16

I don't know why people are pretending that engines with treasure payload are rare.
Logged

ackmondual

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 407
  • Respect: +256
    • View Profile
Re: Don't bother getting the yellow cards out of the box
« Reply #99 on: July 01, 2018, 08:24:07 pm »
+1

I don't know why people are pretending that engines with treasure payload are rare.
It's still jarring to hear the pros have gone out of their way to avoid Silver and even Gold
Logged
Village, +2 Actions.  Village, +3 Actions.  Village, +4 Actions.  Village, +5 Actions.  Village, +6 Actions.  Village, +7 Actions.  Workers Village, +2 Buys, +8 Actions.  End Action Phase.  No Treasures to play.  No buy.  No Night cards to play
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5  All
 

Page created in 0.188 seconds with 21 queries.