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BobbyZim

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Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 28, 2018, 02:31:48 am »
+2

OK. I've searched every thread on this and not found the answer to my three questions about Counterfeit (I play only the card game). Please someone let me know if my understanding is right:

1.) As Counterfeit is a Treasure, you do not play it until the Buy phase, so it does not require a +1 (or more) Action to play if you play an Action card first.
2.) The +1 Buy is automatic.
3.) The other Treasure card can be played twice in the first buy (e.g.: a Copper or another Counterfeit is worth 2, a Silver worth 4, a Gold worth 6), OR the Treasure can be played once in the first buy, and then again in the second buy (e.g.: the Copper + Counterfeit = an Estate, and then the Copper is played again to buy a Poor House, and then trash the Copper).

Is this correct?
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kieranmillar

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 05:13:54 am »
+8

There is no concept of playing treasures in "the first buy" or "the second buy". In your buy phase you play all treasures you want to BEFORE buying anything. Then you sum up the total coin you have and then buy up to as many cards as you are allowed to according to the additional buys your played cards give using that total coin pool. You do not have to assign each treasure card to a particular purchase.

Note that once you've bought a card, you can't play any more treasures. So you need to do all your treasure card playing first before buying anything. This matters for cards like Grand Market, so you cannot for example, play 3 silvers, buy Grand Market, then play 3 coppers and buy a silver.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 06:40:44 am »
+4

Your points 1 and 2, however, are entirely correct.
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2018, 02:33:34 pm »
0

Note that once you've bought a card, you can't play any more treasures. So you need to do all your treasure card playing first before buying anything. This matters for cards like Grand Market, so you cannot for example, play 3 silvers, buy Grand Market, then play 3 coppers and buy a silver.

Thank you very much for your reply, except now I'm a little confused:

I don't yet have the Prosperity expansion (we just played our first time this past Christmas and have been playing almost daily since February, but we only have the original, Intrigue and Dark Ages thus far), but I looked up Grand Market.

The wiki said if you use Coppers to buy a Mint before buying Grand Market, once you have trashed your Treasure cards, you can then buy a Grand Market if you don't use Coppers.

So I'm not sure which is correct?

EDIT: Never mind. I think I understand now.

So if you play 11 Coins - say three Golds and two Coppers - with a +1 Buy, first buy a Mint, trash all those treasures, the Coppers are out of play, but you still have 6 Coins left over to buy a Grand Market. Right?

Same way if, for instance, you play a Procession on a Festival, then trash the Festival before the Buy phase, you still have the +2 Buys and +4 Coins for the Buy phase. Is that right?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 02:48:18 pm by BobbyZim »
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Awaclus

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2018, 02:55:58 pm »
+1

EDIT: Never mind. I think I understand now.

So if you play 11 Coins - say three Golds and two Coppers - with a +1 Buy, first buy a Mint, trash all those treasures, the Coppers are out of play, but you still have 6 Coins left over to buy a Grand Market. Right?

Same way if, for instance, you play a Procession on a Festival, then trash the Festival before the Buy phase, you still have the +2 Buys and +4 Coins for the Buy phase. Is that right?

Yes, that is all correct.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2018, 02:56:33 pm »
+7


EDIT: Never mind. I think I understand now.

So if you play 11 Coins - say three Golds and two Coppers - with a +1 Buy, first buy a Mint, trash all those treasures, the Coppers are out of play, but you still have 6 Coins left over to buy a Grand Market. Right?

Same way if, for instance, you play a Procession on a Festival, then trash the Festival before the Buy phase, you still have the +2 Buys and +4 Coins for the Buy phase. Is that right?

Correct. The main thing you seem to have been mixed up on is thinking that you use Treasure cards to buy things. You don't! You never "spend 4 Coppers on a Smithy". You never "use a Gold to purchase a Village". Instead, think of Treasures as just Action cards that are played at a different time (and don't require an action to play). The that you get from playing a Silver is no different than the that you get for playing a Militia. Both Silver and Militia are cards that give you when you play them. After you play your actions and your treasures, you add up all the that you've gotten, and that's how much you have to spend.


And welcome to the forum!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 02:58:00 pm by GendoIkari »
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 08:47:39 pm »
+1

Correct. The main thing you seem to have been mixed up on is thinking that you use Treasure cards to buy things. You don't! You never "spend 4 Coppers on a Smithy". You never "use a Gold to purchase a Village". Instead, think of Treasures as just Action cards that are played at a different time (and don't require an action to play). The that you get from playing a Silver is no different than the that you get for playing a Militia. Both Silver and Militia are cards that give you when you play them. After you play your actions and your treasures, you add up all the that you've gotten, and that's how much you have to spend.


And welcome to the forum!

Thank you all very, very much for the help, and for the welcome to the forum. Again, we're newbies, and I honestly did try to find the answer to this question before asking it.

That said, I do have two more questions, one of which - having looked at the wiki and the forum - I think I have right, the other of which we've kind of wavered on in playing:

  • After some debate, we've been playing Throne Room and Procession as implied +1 Action cards. In other words, first we play Throne Room, then we play Village, which we play twice. Our first time, we had had to play Village first, then played Throne Room costing us one of those Actions, then played another Action - e.g.: an Artisan - as our second Action the Village gave us. Upon looking over the wiki and the forum, I think we did it wrong, and we have since played the Throne Room as I described, where play the Throne Room, then either the Artisan or the Village as we see fit. Is that right?
  • We're still not quite sure whether we're supposed to play +X Action cards where we resolve the extra Actions before going back to do whatever the initial card told us to do. To give a simple example: Say we start with two Action cards in hand: An Ironmonger and a Mystic. Is it smarter to play the Ironmonger first, reveal the top card of our deck, then use the +1 Action to play the Mystic, now knowing precisely what card is on top? OR[/i] are we supposed to play the Mystic, then the Ironmonger, reveal the top card and now go back to the Mystic to resolve the card? (If this question makes sense.)

Thanks very much again for all your help!
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crj

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 09:00:01 pm »
+4

The best way to think about this may be to imagine you have a line of dials in front of you. One says how many actions you can play, one says how many cards you can buy, one says how much spending money you have.

At the start of the turn, those dials get set to 1 action, 1 buy, no spending money.

During your action phase, you play Action cards. Each time you play one, your actions dial goes down by one. If it's at zero, you can't play any more actions; you have to end your action phase and proceed to your buy phase, even if you have more Action cards in hand.

If you play a card that says "+1 Action", your actions dial goes up by one. If you play a card that says "+2 Actions", your actions dial goes up by two. And so on. "+1 Action" does not mean "play another action"; it means increase the number of actions you'll be able to play this turn. If, for example, your action phase consisted of playing Village, then Smithy, then Remodel, you would finish playing Village before you began playing Smithy.

Throne Room (and a handful of other cards, for example Vassal if you have the Second Edition base) are different. They explicitly say to play a card. So when you play Throne Room, you select a card from your hand, play it (completely resolving it), play it again (completely resolving it again) and only then are you done playing Throne Room. When you play a card because you're told to, that doesn't decrease the number of actions you have available.
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 09:15:02 pm »
0

The best way to think about this may be to imagine you have a line of dials in front of you. One says how many actions you can play, one says how many cards you can buy, one says how much spending money you have.

At the start of the turn, those dials get set to 1 action, 1 buy, no spending money.

OK. That makes a lot of sense.

But just so I'm clear (because I think what I'm about to say is right): +X Cards are the first thing you do.

So if you play, say, a Wandering Minstrel:

  • Draw one card.
  • Reveal the Top 3 cards of your deck (etc.).
  • If you have another Action - either from the card you drew or already in hand - now you play that.

Right?
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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 09:33:06 pm »
+2

But just so I'm clear (because I think what I'm about to say is right): +X Cards are the first thing you do.

Right?
You always execute the actions on a card in order in the order written on the card. Often this means that you draw cards first, but some cards (e.g. Cellar) have you do something else first. What you wrote for Wandering Minstrel is correct.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 09:40:43 pm »
+1

The best way to think about this may be to imagine you have a line of dials in front of you. One says how many actions you can play, one says how many cards you can buy, one says how much spending money you have.

At the start of the turn, those dials get set to 1 action, 1 buy, no spending money.

OK. That makes a lot of sense.

But just so I'm clear (because I think what I'm about to say is right): +X Cards are the first thing you do.

So if you play, say, a Wandering Minstrel:

  • Draw one card.
  • Reveal the Top 3 cards of your deck (etc.).
  • If you have another Action - either from the card you drew or already in hand - now you play that.

Right?

When you play a card, you do everything on that card (save for anything below a dividing line) in order.

As allowed during your action phase, you play Wandering Minstrel. (And as with all action cards played at this time, this is done at the cost of reducing your action count by 1).  Following the instructions on the card, you:

   1. Draw one card.
   2. Increase your action count by 2
   3. Reveal [blah blah blah]

At that point, you've finished playing Wandering Minstrel and, since you're still in the action phase and your action count is at least 2, you may play another action card from your hand.  And maybe another one after you finish playing that one.

Imagine that you represent actions by using beads or tokens. (You could even actually do this for a few games if it helps.) The game gives you one action "token" at the start of your turn. In the action phase, you are allowed to play an action card at the cost of giving up one of your action "tokens." Some action cards say "+1 Action" or "+2 Actions"; when you play those, you take that many action "tokens" back. If you have any action "tokens" left after playing an action card, you may play another one, again handing in one of your action "tokens." When you run out of action "tokens," or when you decide you're done playing action cards, you move on to the buy phase.  At the end of the turn (or at least before the beginning of your next turn), you lose any action "tokens" you didn't spend.

Since you're familiar with the wiki, you might take a look at Diadem and see if that makes the idea any clearer.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 09:48:38 pm by chipperMDW »
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2018, 02:36:33 pm »
0

Imagine that you represent actions by using beads or tokens. (You could even actually do this for a few games if it helps.) The game gives you one action "token" at the start of your turn. In the action phase, you are allowed to play an action card at the cost of giving up one of your action "tokens." Some action cards say "+1 Action" or "+2 Actions"; when you play those, you take that many action "tokens" back. If you have any action "tokens" left after playing an action card, you may play another one, again handing in one of your action "tokens." When you run out of action "tokens," or when you decide you're done playing action cards, you move on to the buy phase.

Yes, that does help, thank you very much.

I think what caused the confusion here was when I looked up Shanty Town on the wiki. At first, this is how we played it:

  • If the only Action card we had in hand before playing it was Shanty Town, we revealed our hand immediately, drew two cards, and then if both cards drawn were Action cards (or if one of the cards drawn was an Action card that gave + Cards, and one or more of the cards we drew from that were Action cards), mazel tov! We could now play two actions.
  • If we had two or more Action cards in hand and played Shanty Town first, we could not ever draw two cards, but we could play up to two of the other Action cards in hand.

But because of some confusion, I think, I had read the wiki entry as saying:

  • If we had two or three Action cards in hand to begin with and played Shanty Town first, we could then play one or both of the other Action cards.
  • Having played all Action cards in hand, we could now reveal our hand for +2 Cards.

If you'll forgive me one more stupid newbie question, which I'm 98% sure is the last one:

We had it right the first time. In other words, we were either eligible for the +2 Cards immediately upon playing Shanty Town, or we lost the +2 Cards forever. But we still had the +2 Actions until either we used them or moved to the Buy phase.

Is that right?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 02:50:34 pm by BobbyZim »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2018, 03:15:55 pm »
+4

You were playing Shanty Town correctly. But you still seem to be over-complicating it. The proper way to play Shanty Town is this:

Start your turn with 1 Action.
1) Play Shanty Town (Which costs 1 Action, you now have 0).
2) +2 Actions (Add 2 to your Action pool, you now have 2).
3) Reveal your hand
3a) You have no actions cards in hand, so +2 Cards (Draw 2 cards)
3b) You do have an action card in hand, so nothing else happens.

Shanty Town is now completely done.

Whether you followed 3a or 3b, you end up with 2 Actions available. If you have any actions in hand at this point, you can play them.
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2018, 03:40:20 pm »
+2

Thank you all again very much. I think I've got it.

So that would also apply to, say, playing Village on Throne Room. In other words, we play Throne Room, then play Village. We draw one card. We put 2 Actions into our "Action bank," as it were, or on our "Action dial." Now we draw another card and can play up to 4 more Actions, whether they are currently in our hands, or whether we draw them through a subsequent Action card that gives + Cards (say, Witch).

If I've got it, thanks so much to everybody again. Now we totally know what we're doing...

Until we get our copy of Seaside next week.  :o
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crj

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2018, 04:06:44 pm »
+2

Yup!

An entirely reasonable turn might be:
  • (Actions:1 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
  • Play Throne Room, select Village (Actions:0 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
    • Play Village the first time. Draw a card. (Actions:2 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
    • Play Village the second time. Draw a card. (Actions:4 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
  • Play a Smithy which you drew the second time you played Village. Draw 3 cards. (Actions:3 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
  • Play another Smithy you drew by playing the first Smithy. Draw 3 cards. (Actions:2 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
  • Play a Village. Draw 1 card. (Actions:3 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
  • Play Remodel. Trash an Estate. Gain a Throne Room. (Actions:2 Buys:1 $0 to spend.)
  • Play a Market. Draw 1 card, causing a shuffle, and drawing the Throne Room you just gained. (Actions:2 Buys:2 $1 to spend.)
  • Play Throne room, select Moneylender. (Actions:1 Buys:2 $1 to spend.)
    • Play Moneylender the first time. Trash a copper. (Actions:1 Buys:2 $4 to spend.)
    • Play Moneylender the second time. Trash a copper. (Actions:1 Buys:2 $7 to spend.)
  • End your action phase and move on to your buy phase. (Actions:1 Buys:2 $7 to spend.)
  • Play Gold. (Actions:1 Buys:2 $10 to spend.)
  • Play Counterfeit, select Silver. (Actions:1 Buys:3 $11 to spend.)
    • Play Silver the first time. (Actions:1 Buys:3 $13 to spend.)
    • Play Silver the second time. (Actions:1 Buys:3 $15 to spend.)
    • Trash the Silver. (Actions:1 Buys:3 $15 to spend.)
  • Buy a Province. (Actions:1 Buys:2 $7 to spend.)
  • Buy a Gold. (Actions:1 Buys:1 $1 to spend.)
  • Clean up. (Leaving 1 action, 1 buy and $1 of spending power unused.)
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2018, 05:06:34 pm »
0

Yup!

An entirely reasonable turn might be:

Hah! "An entirely reasonable turn," perhaps, but as I have found, my housemate I play with hates it when a turn takes 15 minutes. I, on the other hand, love it.  :P

Thank you all very much again. This has been greatly appreciated.
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crj

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2018, 08:20:01 pm »
+1

Things will probably get quicker with practice. I doubt I'd spend more than a minute on that turn; two tops. (-8

One of the greatest innovations in Dominion was the idea of having people draw their next hand during cleanup for the turn before. As well as making various kinds of attack and reaction possible, it means you get to plan your turn a bit while other people are playing.
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Donald X.

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2018, 12:18:11 am »
+5

One of the greatest innovations in Dominion was the idea of having people draw their next hand during cleanup for the turn before. As well as making various kinds of attack and reaction possible, it means you get to plan your turn a bit while other people are playing.
That was not my innovation. Filthy Rich does that, and I asked its designer, Richard Garfield, about that mechanic specifically, why did he do it that way.
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2018, 03:27:21 am »
0

OK. I just wanted to say/ask four things:

  • I am very flattered Herr Vaccarino selbst folgt diesem Thema.
  • I think I understand where my housemate and I first got mistaken on playing Treasures cards. It was our first game, when we played First Game, and we had Merchant. "The first time you play a Silver this turn, +1 Coin." At that time, not yet knowing cards like Counterfeit existed, we got it into our heads that you don't play all your Treasure cards at once. Our mistake, but we've got it now.
  • Now that we have Seaside, we're just checking so we're sure we're doing this right: If you, say, play a Throne Room on an Embargo, first you get +2 Coins. Then you trash the Embargo. Then you put an Embargo token on a Supply pile. Then you get another +2 Coins for a total of +4 Coins. Then you put another Embargo token on the same or a different Supply pile. Whereas if you play a Procession on the Embargo, all of the above, except having finished, you also then gain an Action card costing exactly 3 Coins. Is that correct?
  • The rules book said we were supposed to have 15 Embargo tokens and 25 Coin tokens, but when I counted, we got 20 and 30, respectively. While it is unlikely this will come up, are we not supposed to use the five spares? Just wondering.

Thanks again so much for any clarifications. I will say we are loving this game, and again, we play at least one game almost every day, and we play a lot of games.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 03:30:21 am by BobbyZim »
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markus

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2018, 05:16:37 am »
+2

2) It's correct that you don't play Treasures at once but one after the other.

3) That is correct.

4) Tokens are supposed to be unlimited. Use all that you have and if you run out find some other way to record it.
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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2018, 07:03:32 am »
0

2) It's correct that you don't play Treasures at once but one after the other.

3) That is correct.

4) Tokens are supposed to be unlimited. Use all that you have and if you run out find some other way to record it.

You do play treasures one after the other, but all of your treasures are played in the same window of time, which is before any cards are bought. This occasionally matters for stuff like Horn of Plenty. But you can’t play any more treasures after you buy anything (exc. Villa, Black Market)
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markusin

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2018, 09:01:23 am »
0

2) It's correct that you don't play Treasures at once but one after the other.

3) That is correct.

4) Tokens are supposed to be unlimited. Use all that you have and if you run out find some other way to record it.

You do play treasures one after the other, but all of your treasures are played in the same window of time, which is before any cards are bought. This occasionally matters for stuff like Horn of Plenty. But you can’t play any more treasures after you buy anything (exc. Villa, Black Market)

Since they've already been brought up, you also cannot spend Coin Tokens after you buy anything during the Buy Phase. You have to cash in all the coin tokens you want to spend in the same time window that you play treasures during the Buy Phase, so before anything is bought. This matters especially for Merchant Guild. You also cannot spend Coin Tokens when buying cards from Black Market.
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crj

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2018, 10:05:03 am »
+2

To be clear, the standard turn sequence, often abbreviated to (A)ction, (B)uy, (C)lean-up is actually:
  • Action phase: while you still have actions, play as many Action cards as you like, one by one
  • Buy phase:
    • First: play as many Treasures as you like, one by one
    • Then: while you still have buys, buy as many cards as you like from the Supply
  • Clean-up phase:
    • Discard the cards you have in play, and the cards remaining in your hand (in any order)
    • Draw a new hand of 5 cards

For completeness, the expansions complicate this a little:
  • Action phase:
    • Start-of-turn effects (e.g. those caused by having played a Duration last turn)
    • While you still have actions, play as many Action cards as you like, one by one
  • Buy phase:
    • Start-of-buy-phase effects
    • Play as many Treasures and coin tokens as you like, one by one
    • As many times as you like:
      • Pay off debt, or
      • (providing you still have buys and are not in debt) buy a card from the Supply, or an Event
    • End-of-buy-phase effects
  • Night phase: play as many Night cards as you like, one by one
  • Clean-up phase:
    • Start-of-cleanup-phase effects
    • Discard the cards you have in play - except Durations that are still in force - and the cards remaining in your hand (in any order)
    • Draw a new hand of 5 cards
    • End-of-turn effects
  • Check to see if the game has ended
  • After-your-turn effects
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sudgy

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2018, 12:39:02 pm »
0

or completeness, the expansions complicate this a little:
  • Action phase:
    • Start-of-turn effects (e.g. those caused by having played a Duration last turn)
    • While you still have actions, play as many Action cards as you like, one by one
  • Buy phase:
    • Start-of-buy-phase effects
    • Play as many Treasures and coin tokens as you like, one by one
    • As many times as you like:
      • Pay off debt, or
      • (providing you still have buys and are not in debt) buy a card from the Supply, or an Event
    • End-of-buy-phase effects
  • Night phase: play as many Night cards as you like, one by one
  • Clean-up phase:
    • Start-of-cleanup-phase effects
    • Discard the cards you have in play - except Durations that are still in force - and the cards remaining in your hand (in any order)
    • Draw a new hand of 5 cards
    • End-of-turn effects
  • Check to see if the game has ended
  • After-your-turn effects

Do start of your turn effects happen in your Action phase?  I've always assumed they happen before your Action phase.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Awaclus

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2018, 12:53:35 pm »
+1

or completeness, the expansions complicate this a little:
  • Action phase:
    • Start-of-turn effects (e.g. those caused by having played a Duration last turn)
    • While you still have actions, play as many Action cards as you like, one by one
  • Buy phase:
    • Start-of-buy-phase effects
    • Play as many Treasures and coin tokens as you like, one by one
    • As many times as you like:
      • Pay off debt, or
      • (providing you still have buys and are not in debt) buy a card from the Supply, or an Event
    • End-of-buy-phase effects
  • Night phase: play as many Night cards as you like, one by one
  • Clean-up phase:
    • Start-of-cleanup-phase effects
    • Discard the cards you have in play - except Durations that are still in force - and the cards remaining in your hand (in any order)
    • Draw a new hand of 5 cards
    • End-of-turn effects
  • Check to see if the game has ended
  • After-your-turn effects

Do start of your turn effects happen in your Action phase?  I've always assumed they happen before your Action phase.

Technically they do. There's nothing before the Action phase.
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