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GendoIkari

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2018, 01:42:29 pm »
+2

or completeness, the expansions complicate this a little:
  • Action phase:
    • Start-of-turn effects (e.g. those caused by having played a Duration last turn)
    • While you still have actions, play as many Action cards as you like, one by one
  • Buy phase:
    • Start-of-buy-phase effects
    • Play as many Treasures and coin tokens as you like, one by one
    • As many times as you like:
      • Pay off debt, or
      • (providing you still have buys and are not in debt) buy a card from the Supply, or an Event
    • End-of-buy-phase effects
  • Night phase: play as many Night cards as you like, one by one
  • Clean-up phase:
    • Start-of-cleanup-phase effects
    • Discard the cards you have in play - except Durations that are still in force - and the cards remaining in your hand (in any order)
    • Draw a new hand of 5 cards
    • End-of-turn effects
  • Check to see if the game has ended
  • After-your-turn effects

Do start of your turn effects happen in your Action phase?  I've always assumed they happen before your Action phase.

Technically they do. There's nothing before the Action phase.

Yes, this actually matters if you Prince or Summon a Crown (using cost reduction).
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2018, 04:36:36 pm »
0

Hoo, boy. OK. I can see there are going to be even more questions as I get more expansions. So I'm just going to keep this thread in my bookmarks and reread it all through all my future expansions.

But now all of this discussion brings up four new questions, the first two of which come up because I looked at the wiki for Procession, and I was at first confused, but now I think I really have finally got it. The latter two go back to the original subject of the thread title, which is Counterfeit.

  • If you Procession a Duration card, the Duration card is out of play, but its effects remain, but they are not doubled. For example, if I Procession a Wharf, first I draw 2 cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank." Then I draw 2 more cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank" (for a total of +2 Buys, or 3 Buys). Then I trash the Wharf and gain an Action card costing 6 - say, for example, an Artisan - onto my discard pile. I then make between 0 and 3 Buys with whatever Treasure I have, and in Clean-Up, I discard the Procession and the Treasure cards. Then at the start of my next turn, in what I guess you'd call my "zeroeth Action," as it were, because it happens during my Action phase but does not cost me an Action, I draw 2 cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank," for a total of 2 Buys. The Wharf's effects now being gone, it has been completely resolved, and I don't draw 2 more cards and get another +1 Buy, nor do I start the turn after that with +2 Cards and +1 Buy as my "zeroeth Action." Correct?
  • Assuming that first question is correct that remains true even if another player has - between the end of my last turn and the start of the next, taken that Wharf out of the Trash by playing, say a Graverobber. Right?
  • So if I play a Counterfeit, and I play subsequent Treasure cards one-by-one, let's say I play a Counterfeit and then a Gold. Do I announce the Gold is the one I'm playing twice and then immediately trash it to take it out of play, but still have the 6 Coins it confers? (I ask for in the future, when I get Prosperity and may wish to do this with a Counterfeit on a Copper to buy a Grand Market, for instance.)
  • On that note, if I play a Counterfeit on a Spoils, is it just like my above question, except after that, I put the Spoils back on the Spoils pile? Or does it stay in the Trash? (I ask because that matters for something like, say, Forager.)
Thanks so, so, so much again.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 04:38:41 pm by BobbyZim »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2018, 05:13:17 pm »
+1

If you Procession a Duration card, the Duration card is out of play, but its effects remain, but they are not doubled. For example, if I Procession a Wharf, first I draw 2 cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank." Then I draw 2 more cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank" (for a total of +2 Buys, or 3 Buys). Then I trash the Wharf and gain an Action card costing 6 - say, for example, an Artisan - onto my discard pile. I then make between 0 and 3 Buys with whatever Treasure I have, and in Clean-Up, I discard the Procession and the Treasure cards. Then at the start of my next turn, in what I guess you'd call my "zeroeth Action," as it were, because it happens during my Action phase but does not cost me an Action, I draw 2 cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank," for a total of 2 Buys. The Wharf's effects now being gone, it has been completely resolved, and I don't draw 2 more cards and get another +1 Buy, nor do I start the turn after that with +2 Cards and +1 Buy as my "zeroeth Action." Correct?


Not correct. When you Procession Wharf, you play Wharf twice. So you do this:

(First play)
1) Draw 2 cards and get +1 buy
2) Start of next turn draw 2 cards and get +1 buy
(Second play)
3) Draw another 2 cards and get another +1 buy
4) Start of next turn, draw another 2 cards and get another +1 buy.

So at the start of next turn, you will draw a total of 4 cards and get +2 buys. There is no difference in effects between playing 2 separate Wharfs, and playing the same Wharf twice, whether using Procession or Throne Room to do so.

The important thing here is that the Wharf doesn't need to be in play to do anything next turn. You played it twice, so you get all of its effects twice, both this turn and next.

Quote
Assuming that first question is correct that remains true even if another player has - between the end of my last turn and the start of the next, taken that Wharf out of the Trash by playing, say a Graverobber. Right?

Right, it doesn't matter at all what happens to the actual physical card after you play it. Makes no difference if it is in the trash, in play, or in your opponent's library or in their play area.

Quote
So if I play a Counterfeit, and I play subsequent Treasure cards one-by-one, let's say I play a Counterfeit and then a Gold. Do I announce the Gold is the one I'm playing twice and then immediately trash it to take it out of play, but still have the 6 Coins it confers? (I ask for in the future, when I get Prosperity and may wish to do this with a Counterfeit on a Copper to buy a Grand Market, for instance.)

To be technical, you don't just "announce" Gold in any way, you simply play it, twice, then trash it. Each time you play the Gold, you will get +, so it will give you a total of +, in addition to the from Counterfeit. Just like with the action cards and Procession, it doesn't matter what happens to the Treasure cards after they are played. They give you when you play them, and you still have that whether the Treasure stays in play, or gets trashed, or gets moved to the top of your deck with Mandarin.

Quote
On that note, if I play a Counterfeit on a Spoils, is it just like my above question, except after that, I put the Spoils back on the Spoils pile? Or does it stay in the Trash? (I ask because that matters for something like, say, Forager.)


Spoils will not ever go to the trash in this case. You always do everything in the order it is written..
1. Play Counterfeit, which tells you to play a treasure twice.
2. Play Spoils. Get , and return Spoils to the Spoils pile.
3. Play Spoils. Get , and try but fail to return the Spoils to the Spoils pile, because it has already been moved there.
4. Try and fail to trash the Spoils, because it has been moved, so the Counterfeit cannot "find" it to trash it. This is called the Lose-Track rule.

The last question implies that you are missing the important fact that you must do everything written on the cards in order. So when Counterfeit tells you to play a Treasure card, you play that Treasure card, doing everything it says fully, before you ever get back to Counterfeit's "trash that Treasure". Spoil's "Return this to the Spoils pile" happens first.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 05:17:15 pm by GendoIkari »
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2018, 05:32:44 pm »
0

  • Oh, OK. So it does double the next action, even if the Procession is out of play.
  • OK. Got that.  :) I'm learning!
  • Wait... do you ever "announce" anything? Because it was my understanding for, say, Pawn or Courtier (if on the latter, I get two or more choices), when I play the card, I have to say which ones I'm doing first before doing anything. Otherwise, I could on, say, Pawn, first take the +1 Card, in which I get a Gold, and whereas I was going to take the +1 Coin, change my mind and instead take the +1 Buy to play the Gold and get a Poor House and an Estate.
  • Got it. OK.

Thank you all again so very much for helping the stupid newbie. I hope I'm not annoying you with my questions.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 05:34:09 pm by BobbyZim »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2018, 08:07:04 pm »
+1

For number 3, you generally do narrorate things as you do them, such as I play Village, draw a card. Silver, Silver, Cooper, buy a Witch. Your turn.

But the difference between Pawn and Counterfiet is that with Pawn, stating your choices out loud is the only way to let your opponent know what you have chosen. With Counterfiet, your choice becomes known because you actually play something else.

In other words, you dont need to say I play Counterfiet, choosing Gold. Instead, you would put Counterfiet on the table, then put Gold on the table, announcing each card as it goes on the table. So yes, you do announce things; all I meant was that you actually play the Gold, you dont simply name Gold.
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crj

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2018, 09:42:13 pm »
0

Yes, this actually matters if you Prince or Summon a Crown (using cost reduction).
I think Crown is currently the only card that cares? But there are more ways than that to get one played at start-of-turn. (Ghost, playing it indirectly via a throne, Vassal, Herald, one of the above, etc.)
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crj

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2018, 09:50:22 pm »
+2

Spoils will not ever go to the trash in this case.
Just for the sake of clarity, Spoils can end up in the trash. Just not like that. (-8

For example, you might end up trashing one if attacked with Bandit.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2018, 06:22:52 am »
+1

Yes, this actually matters if you Prince or Summon a Crown (using cost reduction).
I think Crown is currently the only card that cares? But there are more ways than that to get one played at start-of-turn. (Ghost, playing it indirectly via a throne, Vassal, Herald, one of the above, etc.)
Werewolf is the other card that cares.
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Gazbag

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2018, 08:48:47 am »
+3

Yes, this actually matters if you Prince or Summon a Crown (using cost reduction).
I think Crown is currently the only card that cares? But there are more ways than that to get one played at start-of-turn. (Ghost, playing it indirectly via a throne, Vassal, Herald, one of the above, etc.)
Werewolf is the other card that cares.
Werewolf just cares about whether or not it's Night, so if start of turn wasn't the Action phase it'd still give +3 Cards.
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Chappy7

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2018, 11:11:41 am »
0

For number 3, you generally do narrorate things as you do them, such as I play Village, draw a card. Silver, Silver, Cooper, buy a Witch. Your turn.

But the difference between Pawn and Counterfiet is that with Pawn, stating your choices out loud is the only way to let your opponent know what you have chosen. With Counterfiet, your choice becomes known because you actually play something else.

In other words, you dont need to say I play Counterfiet, choosing Gold. Instead, you would put Counterfiet on the table, then put Gold on the table, announcing each card as it goes on the table. So yes, you do announce things; all I meant was that you actually play the Gold, you dont simply name Gold.

Announcing it might still be right.  What if I play Counterfeit, then choose to not counterfeit anything, then continue playing treasures. (Lord Rattington taught me that awesome strategy) In that case it seems like you'd need to announce that you aren't choosing anything, or you'd need to announce the cases when you do choose a treasure to play twice. 
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markusin

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2018, 12:14:22 pm »
0

For number 3, you generally do narrorate things as you do them, such as I play Village, draw a card. Silver, Silver, Cooper, buy a Witch. Your turn.

But the difference between Pawn and Counterfiet is that with Pawn, stating your choices out loud is the only way to let your opponent know what you have chosen. With Counterfiet, your choice becomes known because you actually play something else.

In other words, you dont need to say I play Counterfiet, choosing Gold. Instead, you would put Counterfiet on the table, then put Gold on the table, announcing each card as it goes on the table. So yes, you do announce things; all I meant was that you actually play the Gold, you dont simply name Gold.

Announcing it might still be right.  What if I play Counterfeit, then choose to not counterfeit anything, then continue playing treasures. (Lord Rattington taught me that awesome strategy) In that case it seems like you'd need to announce that you aren't choosing anything, or you'd need to announce the cases when you do choose a treasure to play twice.

Yeah especially when it comes to playing or not playing Spoils with Counterfeit. You can't say "oh he trashed the Spoils so obviously he played it with Counterfeit" because the Spoils doesn't get trashed either way. Maybe this matters for Storyteller + Villa or Black Market, who knows.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2018, 12:21:34 pm »
+1

For number 3, you generally do narrorate things as you do them, such as I play Village, draw a card. Silver, Silver, Cooper, buy a Witch. Your turn.

But the difference between Pawn and Counterfiet is that with Pawn, stating your choices out loud is the only way to let your opponent know what you have chosen. With Counterfiet, your choice becomes known because you actually play something else.

In other words, you dont need to say I play Counterfiet, choosing Gold. Instead, you would put Counterfiet on the table, then put Gold on the table, announcing each card as it goes on the table. So yes, you do announce things; all I meant was that you actually play the Gold, you dont simply name Gold.

Announcing it might still be right.  What if I play Counterfeit, then choose to not counterfeit anything, then continue playing treasures. (Lord Rattington taught me that awesome strategy) In that case it seems like you'd need to announce that you aren't choosing anything, or you'd need to announce the cases when you do choose a treasure to play twice.

Yeah especially when it comes to playing or not playing Spoils with Counterfeit. You can't say "oh he trashed the Spoils so obviously he played it with Counterfeit" because the Spoils doesn't get trashed either way. Maybe this matters for Storyteller + Villa or Black Market, who knows.

To further clarify, my point was only meant that you actually play the gold when Counterfeit tells you to play a treasure twice, as opposed to the question I was replying to: "Do I announce the Gold is the one I'm playing twice and then immediately trash it to take it out of play". That question sounded to me like it was implying that either he thought you would just play all treasures at once, and then state "Of these Treasures, Gold is the one that's being doubled". Or that you would move Gold directly to the Trash without literally playing it twice.
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2018, 12:29:24 am »
0

Imagine that you represent actions by using beads or tokens. (You could even actually do this for a few games if it helps.) The game gives you one action "token" at the start of your turn. In the action phase, you are allowed to play an action card at the cost of giving up one of your action "tokens." Some action cards say "+1 Action" or "+2 Actions"; when you play those, you take that many action "tokens" back. If you have any action "tokens" left after playing an action card, you may play another one, again handing in one of your action "tokens." When you run out of action "tokens," or when you decide you're done playing action cards, you move on to the buy phase.  At the end of the turn (or at least before the beginning of your next turn), you lose any action "tokens" you didn't spend.

This was such a good idea, I gave it its own thread.

Thank you so much, chipper.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2018, 11:03:32 am »
+1

Thank you so much, chipper.

No problem. I'm glad I helped!
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BobbyZim

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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2018, 02:27:06 pm »
0

Since I'm here, quick question on Seaside:

If I Embargo the Curses pile, does that mean anybody buying a Curse (which I've found with Ambassador and other circumstances may be something a player wants to do) gets two Curses if they buy it as opposed to gaining it some other means?
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Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2018, 02:32:44 pm »
+1

Since I'm here, quick question on Seaside:

If I Embargo the Curses pile, does that mean anybody buying a Curse (which I've found with Ambassador and other circumstances may be something a player wants to do) gets two Curses if they buy it as opposed to gaining it some other means?

Yes.
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