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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 5511 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #150 on: June 19, 2018, 08:24:08 pm »
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(I prefer the old version of Grand Witch that hedges against those Mountain Hag attacks as it precisely opens up this form strategic variety)
Perhaps Grand Witch should still interact with Curse gaining from others. It was never my intention to have this interaction, but I should do some playtesting and see what makes sense afterwards. Thanks for the analysis!

Of course none of these interactions will occur in a Kingdom with Cursers and trashers. But if there is no trasher Mountain Hag and Witch Hunter can be good.
I can't say conclusively, but I think there is still room for cool stuff even with trashers and Cursers. Trashers will enable a non-Grand Witch player to trash curses given out, but Mountain Hag's power comes more from putting Curses back into the Supply to be regained for VP, not cursing. This doesn't scale well into 3-player and up games though. :( Cursers don't seem to change much either. Grand Witch players will likely struggle to handle more than 3 curses in their decks, so it's still a viable attack against them. If you are going Grand Witch either cursing or not cursing seems viable.

I like it (and gee, you even managed to make it thematically sensible with Hunted!). As you said it is a Feast that can stay around. I'd make another comparison though: if you make at l east 3 Coins in the turn and want the card to remain in your deck this is like a Woodcutter that you have to use to a buy a $5. Perhaps no the greatest thing in the world, it takes some time until you are able to buy two cards with one of them costing $5 so until then it is just a terminal Silver. During the endgame it also sucks that you cannot use it to buy two Provinces.

But in the middlegame it can shine and like with Wine Merchant you only gotta pay the $3 once so if you manage to play 2 per turn (or one in the previous turn with a Gold revealed and one in the current turn) you save some.

What fascinates me most about the card is that while it is superficially similar to 2 cards from Base that no longer exist in the second edition it is also totally new and anything but Woodcutter or Feast level of boring.

You can bet all the Hunted cards will have similar themes. Some will certainly deserve to be "hunted", but others may not be so deserving of such treatment. Should be fun to play around with.

I liked the cheaper buy-back feature, but hadn't thought of it in terms of Woodcutter, but that makes a lot of sense. It's like having an extra buy, except you have top use it on Charlatan. I like the early game play, but I'm still concerned about late game, Duchy buying frenzies. I don't play with Gold much, so it's hard for me to say if the Gold requirement for multiple plays is steep enough.

Thanks for the enthusiasm though. It certainly makes me wanna playtest this one a bit.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:43:31 pm by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #151 on: June 19, 2018, 09:38:31 pm »
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I've also got a Hunted Event in the works. I like it mechanically, I just have no idea if the numbers are sound. This seems like it could get out of control, but the opportunity cost is high: Must have the Action card already, can't have played the Action card the turn you buy this, at least $5 Coin to keep it in play one other turn, and ~$3 Coin to get the card back. All of this combined might mean this is only a mid/late game Event.



Not sure if the $4 Coin limit is needed. Higher value cards take longer to get and there's always the chance you don't hit $3 unspent to get them back. Losing a few $5 cost cards will hurt much more than a few $3's.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:45:14 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #152 on: June 20, 2018, 06:22:14 am »
+1

This compares unfavourably with Summon. Sure, it is better in some respects: instead of 5 you only have to pay 4 and later 3, respectively in the endgame, when you don't mind to get rid of the Action card, nothing. And due to the overpay you can use the effect for several turns which is probably the strongest aspect of the Event.
But unlike with Summon you don't gain a card and overall it just seems weaker.

It also compares unfavourable with Ghost Town whose on-gain effect is very similar: a one-shot next turn Lost City. The only difference is again the overpay of Manhunt and that you can choose what "card you draw and play" (well, you don't literally do that with Manhunt but it is kind of like that).

So I'd try to buff it via eliminating the cost restriction. I could be wrong though if the overpay effect is very strong.
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faust

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #154 on: June 20, 2018, 08:41:52 am »
+1

Not sure if the $4 Coin limit is needed. Higher value cards take longer to get and there's always the chance you don't hit $3 unspent to get them back. Losing a few $5 cost cards will hurt much more than a few $3's.
Take setting aside Mountebank for example... that virtually guarantees you having $3 unspent, and could very easily decide the game if you hit $7 with Mountebank in play early.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #155 on: June 24, 2018, 03:24:00 am »
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Manhunt - Thanks everyone for the feedback. These are all concerns I share as well. I think the next step is to play test it and hope it all works out. Otherwise, this could be a balancing nightmare!

Card For Feedback - Thought I'd post some wonky ideas that I think are cool, but I fear are broken or are actually boring to play. Maybe they're fine; maybe they'll never be fine. Any thoughts? Changes you'd make? Thanks!

       

Note - Regarding Worshippers, the idea of semi-countering cost reduction cards by putting a minimum on the Actions gained came from a discussion on Holunder9's page.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 03:41:43 am by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2018, 05:45:29 am »
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Manhunt - Thanks everyone for the feedback. These are all concerns I share as well. I think the next step is to play test it and hope it all works out. Otherwise, this could be a balancing nightmare!

Card For Feedback - Thought I'd post some wonky ideas that I think are cool, but I fear are broken or are actually boring to play. Maybe they're fine; maybe they'll never be fine. Any thoughts? Changes you'd make? Thanks!

       

Note - Regarding Worshippers, the idea of semi-countering cost reduction cards by putting a minimum on the Actions gained came from a discussion on Holunder9's page.
DXV once tried a Duration Throne Room:

Quote
There was a now-and-later Throne Room variant. Play an Action, play it again next turn. It was both confusing and weak.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=117.0

Smuggler's Cove is different though. Playing the card next turn twice is a bit weaker but in all other respects it is stronger: it is non-terminal and it is a Disciple instead of a Throne Room.
I am pretty sure that Disciple variants cannot be done as ordinary Kingdom cards as they would be far too good. But if one wanted to price Smuggler's Cove it is in my opinion at least a $5.

Work Horse is interesting and a bit like Farming Market: you want the other players to play the card first, move the Estates on the Duchy and Province pile such that you get the full 6 Coins when you play Work Horse.
I am not sure that a game in which you have to buy a lot of Estates will always be fun (it is obviously bonkers with Shepherd) but it provides some cool and indirect interaction in a novel way which is always great.

Worshippers looks sound but it might be too cheap. A Hireling variant that provides an extra Buy would probably be balanced at $4 which is a very similar price as 6D. Worshippers is better in 3 respects: extra gaining option, gained to hand, non-terminal.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2018, 12:55:27 pm »
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Smuggler's Cove: Way, way too cheap. Otherwise, it seems good, though I might put a price cap on the cards you can gain, maybe $5, because it might be broken otherwise as Holunder said.

Work Horse: So, obviously this breaks the fundamental rule that cards have to stay in their own supply pile. Mostly it might not be a problem. The main confusion that has to be addressed is if a Victory pile with zero cards in it but whose cards are still on the board counts as an empty pile.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #158 on: June 24, 2018, 01:15:29 pm »
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I think the idea of Smugglers Cove is that people can counter it by gaining the card from under it, which is why it's so cheap?
I don't really love that idea myself - it's kind of getting into single target attack territory but i think that's the thought behind it being cheap.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #159 on: June 25, 2018, 02:54:07 pm »
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Smuggler's Cove(v0.1) - Yes, this is priced quite low because although the benefit next turn is very good, player's can steal your cards before that happens. This is meant to introduce a sort of bluffing game into Dominion. You set aside an Action face down and your opponents can steal it, but they don't know what it is. It could be a low level Action or a high level one.

I really like this concept, but practically it probably doesn't work. Firstly, it needs cheap Actions to bluff with. I could make this a Looter type, but buying Ruins just to bluff with them seems like a losing strategy. Secondly, the rewards and punishments it dishes out for pulling off a Smuggler's Cove and/or stealing a card seem too high. I'd want this card to be fun, but with such high stakes each decision would probably be agonizing.

So perhaps this could work with some adjustments.   

Work Horse(v0.1) - This should already deal with empty Victory card piles as worded. This concept may be fine as is. It certainly changes to greening dynamic a lot, which I like. Basically forces overbuilding, because of the Province blocking, but I fear being forced to buy Estates and Duchies later in the game might not be fun.

I also need to make sure that getting the first +$6 Coin play isn't too much of an advantage.

Worshippers(v0.1) - I like this one for it's ability to accelerate engine building. I feel it has to be priced low though to keep it fun and competitive after Actions have been bought. I fear this one could be brutal if you keep failing to hit $5 with a few Worshippers in play. I guess a player should have a $4 Coin Action as a backup.

The +1 Buy on an Action buy is very useful early and mid-game, but I think it is quite weak once you start greening. This is my justification for pricing it lower than a permanent, non-conditional +1 Buy.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 03:02:26 pm by Kudasai »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #160 on: June 25, 2018, 08:27:57 pm »
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Work Horse(v0.1) - This should already deal with empty Victory card piles as worded.

Well, it doesn't, because this question is going to be brought up by pretty much everyone playing with it. I don't know what the answer would actually be, and I'm honestly not even 100% sure of what you intended the answer to be, although I'm guessing your intention is that a pile counts as empty even if cards from it are elsewhere on the board. Ambassador can prevent a game from ending by returning a card to the supply (and the wording is "supply", not "its pile") so I think a genuine case could be made that as long as a pile's cards are still in the supply, the pile does not count as empty even if there are no cards in the pile itself.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2018, 02:36:10 am »
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Well, it doesn't, because this question is going to be brought up by pretty much everyone playing with it. I don't know what the answer would actually be, and I'm honestly not even 100% sure of what you intended the answer to be, although I'm guessing your intention is that a pile counts as empty even if cards from it are elsewhere on the board. Ambassador can prevent a game from ending by returning a card to the supply (and the wording is "supply", not "its pile") so I think a genuine case could be made that as long as a pile's cards are still in the supply, the pile does not count as empty even if there are no cards in the pile itself.

Sorry. I misunderstood your original post to be about calculating the minus Coin portion.

I don't believe there are rules to dictate this, but this is how I would intend for the card to be played and interact in these situations:
(1) I would consider any Victory card moved to another pile no longer a part of that pile. So if there was an Estate on the Province pile and the Estate pile was empty along with two other piles, the game would end.
(2) Returning an Estate to the Supply would put it onto the Estate pile and not any Victory Supply piles that have an Estate on them. This is reaching a bit, but official card interactions have been redefined before with the addition of new content/mechanics (Possession would be a great example of this). I would just do the same with Ambassador in the expanded rules for Work Horse. Now this is merely how I'd like it to play, but technically Ambassador could return an Estate to either pile in this case. Perhaps it should be left this way. It's an interesting interaction and it's only one combo that will likely never come up.

Thanks for your question and sorry for not responding accordingly the first time!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 02:39:37 am by Kudasai »
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trivialknot

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2018, 03:20:18 pm »
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I definitely don't understand what Hunted does at cleanup.  It says,
1. If you have at least $3 unspent,
2. you may discard any cards on this.
3. Then you may remove a token from this.
4. If you don't, return this and all cards on it to their piles.

It's ambiguous whether 3 is contingent on 1, or if it's not contingent on anything.  I don't know whether the "if you don't" on step 4 is referring to step 3.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #163 on: June 26, 2018, 04:07:55 pm »
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I definitely don't understand what Hunted does at cleanup.  It says,
1. If you have at least $3 unspent,
2. you may discard any cards on this.
3. Then you may remove a token from this.
4. If you don't, return this and all cards on it to their piles.

It's ambiguous whether 3 is contingent on 1, or if it's not contingent on anything.  I don't know whether the "if you don't" on step 4 is referring to step 3.

Step 4 is referring to step 3 and no other steps. This is a wordy one and I need to make it more simple somehow.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2018, 02:03:11 pm »
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Cards For Feedback - Some more ideas I'm on the fence about, although I feel much better about these versus the last batch I posted (Smuggler's Cove, Work Horse, and Worshippers). Thanks for looking!

       

[EDIT] Changed Adventurers cost from $4 to $5.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 02:22:18 pm by Kudasai »
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2018, 02:20:23 pm »
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Great Forest is better than Duchy for $3?
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2018, 03:02:18 pm »
+1

Great Forest is better than Duchy for $3?

Well, not strictly better... EDIT: Sorry, my bad. It actually is practically strictly better except for e.g. Duke.

It should probably cost more and give other players a bonus unrelated to or even competing with a Great Forest strategy. Like

Unconditional +1 Buy.
Unconditional +1 Action.
Copper produces 2 during their turn.
Duchies are cheaper.
Turn non-Action Victory cards into something better (eg Copper or Necropolis).

And so on. You could also give out coin tokens or States to avoid having to add the Duration type, or take VP tokens on gain to avoid the Victory type (and make tfb more attractive). Example

Quote
Town Hall, 6,Action
+1Card
+1Action
If this is the first time you played a Town Hall this turn, each other player takes a coin token.
---
When you gain this, take 4Vp.

Although I don't really mind the type combination of the original. You can have a real VP card once in a while, too. It doesn't all have to be combos.

silvern

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2018, 03:49:20 pm »
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Great Forest is just crazy, crazy strong.

Burial gift seems weak; plus, the wording needs work (does trashing an action make it suddenly worth more? At that point it should have already produced all its money, so that can't be....)

I like adventurers.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2018, 04:18:49 pm »
+1

It might be fine at just 2VP or just increase the cost to $6, although I think it might just have a problem where it almost always gets emptied because it's a cantrip and it incentivises your opponents to go for it. I think self-countering cards are a bad idea in general honestly, they're either super oppressive like Ambassador/Knights or just get emptied every game if they're cantrips or whatever. Oh yeah I guess that's what you're getting at too with those suggestions?

How about its just a cantrip that gives your opponents +1 Card when you play it? So it's either a stop card for you if you don't play it, like a regular victory card, or like -1 stop card to your opponent sort of if you decide to play it. Maybe that isn't the most interesting way to take it but I don't think the bonus to other players needs to be contingent upon them following with their own Great Forests.

I guess I can say something on the others, Burial Ground has odd wording, I think the ... is superfluous and the you at the start of the last sentence should be capitalised. Either way this seems too easy to turn into a Gold? You can choose what order you play treasures in so unless you're chaining a million actions you should be able to slot this into your Coppers to make the numbers match. The Action trash being after you get the $ is also strange, although I think in practise either way it'd be relegated to just trashing trashers that you're finished with.

Adventurers is just complicated Adventurer? I don't know, personally I don't miss Adventurer. But I guess it's fine?
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2018, 07:51:49 am »
+1

I guess the simple problem of Great Forest that you oversaw is that you do not have to play the card so it is cheaper than Duchy.
About the actual mechanic, that's plain brilliant. Suppose A has 6 Great Forests and B has 2. Now if A has all in play and B plays all of his he will get 12 Coins and the other way around! So when you have few copies you can exploit the others having more copies.
If you change the VP value to 1 or 2 and also consider playing around with the cost (perhaps this is better at $4?) this could lead to a, pardon the pun, great card.

I don't like Adventurers as it is far too weak. You have to play it 3 times until it becomes better than Adventurer and starts skipping Coppers.
LFN has pointed out that Adventurer is so bad that it could cost $2 and Asper has a version that does at least provide an extra Buy.

As Gazbag has pointed out, in the opening you can always include one copy of Burial Gift in any deck (without Venture or Adventurers) as it is a Gold. Like opening Skulk without getting some semi-junk. If you play an engine you might later have to trash it but the economic spike you got from it will likely compensate for that.
I also doubt that you would often want to trash an Action just to make the other Burial Gift that you have in your hand produce 2 more Coins. Ruins, some Cursers when the Curse pile is empty, some trashers when you are thin enough, near the end of the game.
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silvern

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2018, 01:58:54 pm »
+1

The way adventurers is worded now, I believe means you start skipping coppers after just 1 play, not 3
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #171 on: July 02, 2018, 12:58:22 pm »
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I don't know about Adventurer at $2, it's comparable to a terminal Silver with the potential for quite a bit of upside so seems more in line with $3-4? I mean it doesn't really make much difference between 2, 3 and 4 in this case anyway.

One thing about Adventurers is that the Coin token is mandatory and there doesn't seem to be a way to remove them, which puts a cap on how many times you can play Adventurers which seems a little unnecessary to me.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #172 on: July 02, 2018, 02:24:06 pm »
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I don't know about Adventurer at $2, it's comparable to a terminal Silver with the potential for quite a bit of upside so seems more in line with $3-4? I mean it doesn't really make much difference between 2, 3 and 4 in this case anyway.
I agree that the price doesn't matter much.

But let's nonethless play the price game: Adventurer is worse than +2 Cards if you play an engine and better than +2 Cards as you can skip green and purple. As Moat exists +2 Cards would be weak at a price of $2 so the only question is whether the upsides or the downsides matter more.

I am pretty sure that most of the time the downsides overweigh: just like with Poor House you have to get rid of your Coppers and gain some villages and in addition to Poor House you need to add some Treasures to your deck to make Adventurer a decent payload card.
The last thing is the big issue; why would you want to waste terminal space if you need a few Silvers or Golds in your deck to enable this conditional terminal payload card. It is not like Gold vs Wine Merchant but some Golds vs some Golds and Adventurer.

Also, if there is in addition to copper trashing and splitters terminal draw in the Kingdom this points more towards draw engine than Adventurer.

So Adventurer is competing with nearly every other type of card and mostly losing. The only thing that can save it IMO is something like what Asper did: +1 Buy which might make it less than totally bad in Kingdoms without extra Buys.

On a sidenote, while Miser is often viewed as friendly Pirate Ship I think that one can also view it as an Adventurer fix: instead of 4 different cards you only need 2 now (no need for Copper trashers and Treasures).
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #173 on: July 02, 2018, 02:48:56 pm »
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I think the main thing is that it's a much better opening buy than Moat and imo enough better to cost $3. But it would be a terrible card either way so who cares right?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #174 on: July 02, 2018, 03:21:53 pm »
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I think the main thing is that it's a much better opening buy than Moat and imo enough better to cost $3. But it would be a terrible card either way so who cares right?

How is it a good opening buy?
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