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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 59874 times)

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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2018, 11:29:26 am »
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Isle doesn't excite me and the decisions is trivial. If you cannot trash your Estates you get Isle, if you can trash your Estates you don't mind, if there is trash-for-benefit Isle is bonkers (remodel into a Province, salvage for a huge amount of Coins, etc.).
I don't think the decision will ever likely be whether to exchange for Isle or not, but whether you exchange an Estate or Copper.
I missed that. Now the decisions is indeed not trivial.
Let's assume that you go for Isle Alt-VP with 4 Isles (this is a conservative benchmark, in a non-mirror it will be more). Then that extra Estate is worth 4VPs at the end of the game. So this is roughly equivalent to the option of exchanging a starting Copper for a Distant Lands (it is a bit worse than that as you might set aside "another" Estate with your Isle during the opening so you could say it is like exchaning a starting Copper for a Distant Lands in a deck in which terminal space is very scarce).
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2018, 07:44:25 am »
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Risen King looks balanced, especially as you rightly made the trashing on a payload card non-mandatory. It is interesting as this is the first conditional Commander effect; if you don't play a trasher in the second turn it does not do anything.
I like that you intentionally avoided Transmogrify tricks around Victory cards and that it is precisely worded such that trashing attacks don't interact with the Commander effect.

I would consider changing it slightly though and make the Transmogrify effect voluntary, otherwise you could shoot yourself in the foot when you play with Risen King and another trasher that you want to use for Copper/Curse/Ruins trashing in the second turn.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2018, 08:44:17 am »
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Upgrading a regular trash into a mini Remodel is cool. I'm not really sold on the whole commander mechanic but ignoring that it's a cool card. I do agree with Holunder that the gain should be optional, with the current version you could trash a Risen King and basically block all other players from trashing their Coppers.

I'd also give this Market Square wording "when one of your non-victory cards is trashed" I think it has the same functionality because other people never trash your cards.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2018, 11:07:30 am »
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Risen King - Perhaps it's a bit too much, but the cost $0 Coin trash blocking while a Risen King is in the trash was an intentional design element. I'm a big fan of Catapult and was hoping to latch on to the cool decision process a player has to make when choosing to trash an early Estate or Copper. This is the scenario I kept envisioning: Your hand is Risen King, Estate and Copper x3. Do you trash the Estate and hit $5 Coin knowing that at some point Coppers become untrashable or do you trash the Copper now and hit $4 Coin knowing you can always trash Estates later in the game? This kind of perma-blocking maybe too harsh, but I'm hoping this is offset a bit by the gaining potential of having Risen Kings in the trash.

The Commander effect for being in your discard may be trivial for most of the game, but it does allow for some cool, mid-turn gaining of Commanders to the top of your discard.

Gazbag, thanks for the syntax suggestion. I hadn't thought to look at Market Square for wording. It has been updated.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2018, 01:37:27 pm »
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because other people never trash your cards.
They do if there are trashing attacks.

I hadn't thought to look at Market Square for wording. It has been updated.
Not a fan of this decision as it totally defangs Knights and Swindler; the attacks would be nearly always (Swindler hitting a $0 is an exception) beneficial for the attacked player.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2018, 01:41:25 pm »
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I am so very confused now. How does the Commander effect prevent you from trashing Coppers? You just trash them and fail to gain anything. In Dominion you can always choose an option even if you can't fully execute it.


because other people never trash your cards.
They do if there are trashing attacks.

Technically, trashing attacks don't directly trash cards, they force each other player to trash cards.

Also, I think the "when one of your cards is trashed" wording might cause rules confusions, as if it's in the trash it's no longer "your" card. I think all of the official cards say "when you trash a card."
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 01:45:13 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2018, 01:49:08 pm »
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I am so very confused now. How does the Commander effect prevent you from trashing Coppers? You just trash them and fail to gain anything. In Dominion you can always choose an option even if you can't fully execute it.
The Commander effect of Risen King is worded like Transmogrify; gain a card costing up to 1 more than it.
So if you trash Copper you have to gain a card that costs between 0 and 1 which is usually, ignoring cost reduction and Poor House, a Copper or a Curse. Usually you take Copper.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 01:50:58 pm by Holunder9 »
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2018, 01:50:28 pm »
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It's up to more, so if you trash a Copper you'd have to gain something costing up to . So like, another Cooper.

As pointed out trashing attacks make the attacked player trash their cards.

I don't see the rules confusion, the wording is lifted from Market Square. Saying when you trash a card means it works with Luker etc, which isn't a good idea.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2018, 01:58:52 pm »
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Saying when you trash a card means it works with Luker etc, which isn't a good idea.
A wording that castrates trashing attacks is not good either. It is like having a permanent Transmogrify on your Tavern mat so you could just put the Knights back into the box and play with 9 piles.
It has to be some new wording that goes into the direction of the first wording, something like "when you cause one of your cards to be trashed" or something like that to indicate that the Commander effect should not be triggered when another player makes you trash one of your cards.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2018, 02:06:12 pm »
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Saying when you trash a card means it works with Luker etc, which isn't a good idea.
A wording that castrates trashing attacks is not good either. It is like having a permanent Transmogrify on your Tavern mat so you could just put the Knights back into the box and play with 9 piles.
It has to be some new wording that goes into the direction of the first wording, something like "when you cause one of your cards to be trashed" or something like that to indicate that the Commander effect should not be triggered when another player makes you trash one of your cards.

I think the interaction with trashing attacks is a benefit, Dominion is all about card interactions. It's not worth making up some tortured wording over certainly. If this is in the kingdom maybe you think twice before buying Knights... yay?
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2018, 02:38:04 pm »
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Huh? There is nothing "tortured" (it is two extra words dude, not a wall of messy text) about my suggested wording, it is just new.
Words are just a way to implement a desired mechanic and should serve that mechanic, not the other way around.
I fail to see the point of designing a card that makes an entire category of other cards worthless in particular Kingdom for no particular reason and especially not if you can easily prevent that dubious destructive interaction from occuring.

Also note that this is not just a card interaction between two random cards. Risen King is one of the few Dominion cards with a global effect which has to be carefully balanced. The only two problems of a permanent Transmogrify that come to mind are green and trashing attacks.

You could do Risen King without the exemption of Victory cards but I am pretty sure that it will lead to some unfun broken games. Trashing attacks are not so horrible, it doesn't lead to a broken game but just to a Kingdom with quasi one pile less. Not fun in my mind.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2018, 03:39:30 pm »
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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I mean there are only a handful of trashing attacks in the game anyway and they're generally among the least popular cards, so I really don't think there's a problem here at all. I assume Lighthouse and Guardian are your least favourite cards because they also shut down trashing attacks completely  :P. Are powerful trashers awful because they make junkers much less relevant? It's all part of the game dude, it's a feature not a bug.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2018, 04:14:16 pm »
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Note that DXV did not do Reactions that backfire.
Now Risen King isn't a Reaction-Attack but something similar: a nullification of the attack with a cherry on top for the defender, e.g. Lighthouse plus Horse Traders: While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, it doesn't affect you and you draw a card. This is nearly as bad as a Reaction-Attack would be and shouldn't be done.

I am pretty sure that this is, in your words, a bug and not a feature. Or to be more precise, it is a design artifact, an incidental thing that Kudasai did not intend. So why shouldn't he improve his card?
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2018, 05:42:29 pm »
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No it's fine, it's more like Market Square or Fortress vs trashing attacks. There's a big difference between shutting down all attacks and making a small subset of attacks worse. LastFootnote actually just made a great post on the subject in that Favourite/Least favourite Events topic.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2018, 06:18:49 pm »
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No it is not. LFN doesn't argue anywhere for what you do: shutting down attacks and gifting the attacked player something. Not to mention that Advance doesn't defend against Looters, you still draw the junk and have to spend a Buy to get rid of it. Even Sacrifice doesn't shut down Looters, a conditional Village for $4 is nothing to write home about.

No offical card does shutdown. Just take a look at Enchantress. The card would be a bad design if it said +2 Coins instead of the cantrip.
Or, to use a ludicrous self-shutdown example, why not do a Curser that reads "in this game, all Curses gain the Action type and can be played for +2 Cards +1 Action". Somehow I guess that this very card will never be bought.


The main issue about Market Square and Fortress is that they are CARDS, i.e. the benefit for the attacked player is conditional upon having a Market Square in hand respectively having to trash a Fortress. Getting these benefits requires good play and adding those cards to your deck.

Risen King on the other hand features a GLOBAL EFFECT. If A trashed Risen King and B plays with Knights C does not have to do anything to welcome those Knight attacks. It is as if the Kingdom randomly featured a general rule that said "when somebody plays an Attack card it does not affect anybody and each other player gets +1VP".

All I suggest is to get rid of this ridiculous general rule that the card INCIDENTALLY implies while keeping the rest of the card intact.

Now if the card change came at a cost, too much text, too much complexity or whatever I would be the first to admit that trashing attacks occur rarely and that the quantitative effect of the attack that benefits the defender is fairly negligible.
But it doesn't so I fail to see why you argue against mending something which violates basic design principles. I learned on this board how important it is to follow basic guidelines and prevent bad interactions, even if they occur infrequently.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2018, 07:52:44 pm »
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I simply disagree with you, I don't think it goes against basic design principles at all. I actually might go as far as to say that your suggestion is the thing going against design principles honestly, interactions like this are good for the game and shouldn't be stifled. All of these silly examples you give are irrelevant. If Fortress is the kingdom and if this thing are in the kingdom you're not going to go for a trashing attack, apart from the situations where you do of course, the end result is the same though so the mechanism at which this result is achieved isn't particularly relevant. You're also hand-waving away the setup cost of gaining and trashing a $5 cost card, which also will probably give a hefty benefit to your opponent for being in the trash, which I would argue is a much higher opportunity cost than say buying some Fortresses. You obviously disagree with me and that's fine, maybe we can draw a line on it here and see what Kudasai decides on.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2018, 09:36:40 pm »
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Risen King(v0.2) - I actually can't recall how I intended for this to interact with Trashing Attacks. I imagine it was an oversight, thinking that when attacked it was the player trashing your cards and not you yourself. Not the case! I think by adding "during your turn" it should clear everything up.

You both argue really good points and I'm not sure if Risen King is fine without the fix or not, but in this instance I think erring on the side of caution is best. Thanks for the lively discussion and can't wait to see what you think of the next Commander - General!
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2018, 02:36:22 am »
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Risen King(v0.2) - I actually can't recall how I intended for this to interact with Trashing Attacks. I imagine it was an oversight, thinking that when attacked it was the player trashing your cards and not you yourself. Not the case! I think by adding "during your turn" it should clear everything up.
I like your "during your turn" wording, that's much clearer better than my "when you cause" suggestion.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2018, 07:25:38 pm »
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Funeral - I usually wait until people have commented on a card before I give my own input, but I just wanted to acknowledge that Funeral may be unready for presentation. I'm merely posting it today in honor of the little, baby crow that didn't make it through the night. It may have grown up to be a curse to all (as crows sometimes do), but to us it was the sweetest little crow and it will be missed. So Funeral is for it. If fixes are needed, they will come soon!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:50:08 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2018, 01:33:53 am »
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Funeral looks sound. I like that it becomes slightly better after the first play. The below-the line-text should read "when you trash" instead of "when you play".
Border Wall isn't particularly exciting but the liability is in my opinion better than that of Poacher.
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faust

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2018, 01:58:48 am »
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Border Wall seems broken with Goons/Merchant Guild. The "while in play" attack may be awkward with Moat as you have to remember which players have revealed, and they may no longer have the Moat in hand by the time the effect takes place, so there's no easy way to check.
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Aquila

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2018, 07:48:34 am »
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Commanders - I get the elegance of implying one passive effect with something there's only one of, a top discard pile card. But how reliable can it be in practice? Basically, I'm raising the thought: why aren't these using their own mat? Since you have multiple Commanders you seem to want to enable switching between different 'command modes' when there is more than one in a kingdom, and a mat would make this simpler, even if it is adding more components.
That Risen King giving a global effect on trash is well discussed. I firstly wonder when you'd choose to trash one and get an advantage out of it for yourself, and secondly if there is more than one in the trash, I think you'd gain a card per copy in the trash?

And the global effect theme doesn't stop there. Funeral takes a lot of setup that affects everybody. Who's going to be the one to get a Bridge on the mat? It's bound to be asked. Suppose somebody goes for it, adding Funeral and Bridge to their deck; everyone else rushes Bridges ignoring everything else, and then...what does he do now? He would even have to lose his Bridge and so fall behind. Or nobody does it because they're all depending on others, a bit like Bishop trashing. Perhaps if everyone's trashing Coppers someone could choose not to and make their Coppers Silvers, and this is the best use for it?

Border Wall shares a similarity with Lost Temple in that you use a Buy to do more, launch a junking Attack. Could be fun, though I'm confident this is a Peddler+ so costs at least $5.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #97 on: June 07, 2018, 08:19:00 am »
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Border Wall seems broken with Goons/Merchant Guild. The "while in play" attack may be awkward with Moat as you have to remember which players have revealed, and they may no longer have the Moat in hand by the time the effect takes place, so there's no easy way to check.

Actually as Border Wall is not an attack, players can't reveal a Moat. Even an attack version wouldn't introduce any issues that weren't there already with e.g. Swamp Hag, though.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #98 on: June 07, 2018, 12:09:36 pm »
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Hmmm I'm pretty sure Border Wall was different when I looked last night... This version seems kind of busted right? Like it's uncommon to not reach on the turn you play this (until you start getting junked I guess) and even then giving out a Curse seems stronger than most s anyway so it's not really like there's a drawback there. If you have multiple buys you can give out a Curse and buy something. I don't know this seems like a bonus more often than a drawback?

So the base effect of Funeral ignoring the mat thing is +2 Cards, trash up to 2 cards, trash this. Which seems like a reasonable enough for a . I'm not sure how well the mat will work, I think the main effect it will have is making you not want to leave a Copper on there early on to give your opponent like +- for free early on. You you'd want to set aside Copper first then Estate (or 2 Estates ideally). Like trashing one of your cards to maybe make your remaining copies better if your opponent doesn't just cover it up on their turn but also making opponent's copies better too seems not worth it?

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2018, 12:36:36 pm »
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Border Wall (v0.2) - Just a quick addition, Faust was commenting on a previous version (v0.1), which had an Attack type. Sorry for the quick switch.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 06:10:16 pm by Kudasai »
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