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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 4058 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2018, 07:23:36 pm »
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Army:
Here is a recent test I did using Village, Smithy and Market. For brevity I've omitted some unnecessary details. 

Turn 6 - First Army, Turn 7 - Placed Village on Army mat, Turn 8 - Second Army, Turn 10 - Placed Smithy on Army mat, Turn 12 - First Army Play for Village+Smithy; Province, Turn 13 - Placed Market on Army mat, Turn 14 - Province, Turn 15 - Province x2, Turn 16 - Province x2.
Did you try this without using Army? It would be interesting to see if it adds any definite impact; 16 turns seems about average, and the same deck without Army could do the same? Also, if I understand correctly, you don't need to put Village on Army for its actions, as 1 Market by itself makes Army nonterminal ('playing' all the cards won't use actions).
As worded, playing all the cards on the Army mat leaving them there, is confusing with Reserve cards; if they don't go to the Tavern mat, they can't be called.
As there are already good, established baselines for Smithy+Big Money and straight Big Money, I only tried various versions of Army play against one another. This was to try and establish baselines using some of Dominions more straight forward cards. So in this instance without trashing or any kind of reliability, a normal Smith+Big Money would have won. Of coarse games are generally more complicated than this and I think Army can be built faster or slower depending on the Kingdom. Militia for instance seems to destroy any kind of Army play (unintentional card flavor for the win!).

Yes, Market and Smithy alone would create a +4 Cards, +1 Action, +1 Buy, +1 Coin card. Village was more there for other testing purposes.

For Reserve cards I'm using Necromancers language. Reserve cards can be put on the Army mat, but once they are played they remove themselves to the Tavern mat and are no longer playable with Army. So you can do it, but there doesn't really seem to be a point.

A little thing I note with Royal Decree that's probably only rules errata, but you play Treasures from opponents' hands, then buy Mandarin or Bonfire. Even though they are now on your deck or trashed, they still would get returned? Certainly snatching some Heirlooms away could get a bit unpleasant.
Sound your air horns for the wombo combo! This is pretty interesting, but was totally unintentional. I have removed it in (v0.2) I would love to see a balanced card that had some kind of interaction like this.

Moon Shrine - so this version has competition to get the bonus coffers, and it encourages spreading the VP around a bit more. Did you try raising the cost of the first version, or is $3 cost necessary to you? I just feel it would play better, but it's only a feeling.
Yeah, Moon Shrine would have to be about a cost $5 with an unconditional +2 Coffers, which for what I wanted out of the card was too high. Testing against Big Money is about the only thing I can do without computer simulations. It only really gives me a baseline for a card, so I don't quite know how strong Moon Shrine will be on some boards, but this is the best I can do. :)

Crane - this is probably a $5 cost card. It's a more flexible Lab. The setback is a bit questionable since if you make this the last Action you play it'll do nothing, and with multiple Cranes that won't be hard to do. Also, something I learned from a card I tried is that having leftover actions is something of a punishment in itself, your investments in the nonterminal Actions are less effective.
Agreed. I had it at cost $5 for a long time and changed it last minute along with the -1 Card token addition hoping that would offset the lower cost, but it likely will not. It has been changed back to cost $5 as of (v0.2).

Difficult to call with Mimic, I've never played Alchemy. It could have the power to persuade players to buy potions? It first looks like a better Overlord for less cost, but comes at a different time so would play differently, and also can't be the card it was under as the would-be empty pile has now left the Supply. They slow down a 3 pile ending and encourage an engine instead. It feels like it will either be interesting, or make games annoyingly slow.
Yeah this one is different for sure. 3-Piles are pretty much out of the question. Mimic itself is incredibly strong and probably can't be balanced, so I thought sticking them under each Action pile would be interesting. Probably not for everyone, but I think it will play fine. The "This is that card until it leaves play' was omitted for brevity. I believe this merely leaves it open to being gained through cards like Changling and Disciple, which seems like an edge case to me.

Thanks for all your comments and catches. It helps a lot getting thoughtful feedback.
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Thanar

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2018, 12:46:46 am »
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Thanks for making these cards. Is it possible to get hi-res versions of the cards (even in a zip file somewhere)? I find the hi-res files improve the clarity and look when I'm printing them out.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2018, 03:00:57 am »
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If I got this correctly e.g. a village pile becomes empty, one player has the chance to buy that Mimic underneath it and can use it now to make Mimic on play e.g. a double Laboratory when it mimics a Smithy (variant). Assuming that there are no other Potion cards in the Kingdom, as that player cannot use the Potion for anything else until a second pile empties Mimic just becomes an ordinary Lab which is not that impressive. So Mimic is basically BoM with an extra Action, no cost-limit and a high opportunity cost.
My point is that this is not nearly as crazy as it seems at first.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2018, 03:41:13 am »
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Hey, cool cards!

Army: The opportunity cost here is huge, but the effect gets insane when you start playing multiple Armies per turn. My worry is that getting to the point where your deck is all Armies and your turns are just playing Armies doesn't seem particularly interesting.

Heir: It isn't very difficult to build a deck that consistently makes $9 per turn, and that's also something that you often want to do anyway, at which point these are just way too good. It seems quite similar to Grand Market in that you have to build up payload before they do anything, except these are easier to gain and give a bigger payoff than GM and it's arguably easier to hit $9 that to hit $6 with no Copper (that depends on the board I guess). I think this could give +$2 and cost $6 and it'd still be quite strong.

Royal Decree: This reminds of Fortune, nowhere near as crazy as Fortune but these do stack really well so they have that going for them. Looking at the player to your left will reduce the effect of multiple opponents and this should probably use wording similar to Necromancer and Army (playing the cards but leaving them in opponent's hand) to avoid nasty interactions with Bonfire/mandarin etc. I'm not sure this really needs the on-gain bonus though? All it really does is make this pay off some of it's debt immediately and it seems strong enough without it. Also I'm npt sure $3+8D is really different enough from 11D to be worth the weird cost?

Moon Shrine: My first reaction was that the +2 Coffers is too good on a non-terminal $3 next to Silver. Although the Vp part is probably more of a drawback than a bonus given that the opponent will have the 1st chance to buy the card with a token given that this is a Night, and this isn't as good as Silver at hitting $5 on the 1st shuffle because you need to draw this turn 3 to be able to make use of the Coppers before you shuffle on turn 5. I guess play testing showed that it was in fact too good though, although I don't think playing things vs big money is particularly useful. Edit: Much to the chagrin of the dominion discord community it's +1 Coffers not +1 Coffer.

Slumlord: Cool card, might end up being too strong though, even just playing something as weak as a Pearl Diver after this is basically giving you a Lost City effect. Perhaps having to draw your cards in the correct order will keep it in check but it seems much easier to do than herald or Diplomat (similar $4 conditional Lost City type things). That isn't even taking into account playing stronger actions with it.

Stadium: This should perhaps tell you to remove the tokens when you discard it from play? My concern with this is that it's basically a guarantee that you can make +$1 with this. That baseline of +$1 is already a Caravan Guard, and the upside of potentially being able to make +$2 or more once you've built up a bit seems much better than the Caravan Guard reaction.

Lost Temple: I think without the using up a Buy part this would be a strong card, but in line with Steward. With the playing it twice thing this becomes pretty crazy I think, it's basically Chapel that becomes a cantrip later, because if you're trashing 4 then you weren't using that Buy anyway. If there are abundant extra Buys then this can basically become a Lost City later too, yikes. I think that's enough to push this up into $5 territory? If you couldn't choose the same option twice then I think it might be okay at $4 though.

Industrious Village: Hmm a lot of conditional Lost Cities here, also I've noticed a lot of these cards that involve jumping through some sort of hoop are rewarding you for doing things that Dominion rewards in general - e.g. Heir rewarding you for building big, Stadium for adding expensive cards to your deck/trashing starting cards and now this for trashing your Coppers and buying lots of Actions. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, just thought it was interesting to point out.

Old Witch: Now as opposed to rewarding you for what you're doing anyway we're punishing people for doing something you didn't want to do anyway  :P. It's perhaps worth noting that this doesn't actually hurt the opponent's deck until they choose to buy a Victory and let the Curses in, that makes this quite weak imo. Well I prefer weak Cursing attacks where it isn't obvious when to go for them to Mountebank-esque things so that isn't really a problem in my book.

Crane: This has to be at least a $5 right? And probably a $6 really, the top part is strictly better than Lab and even lets you use all unused Actions you have so I can't really see the drawback coming into play very often. And really this is just looking at it on its own, taking into account how well this plays with other sources of +Action and it seems clear that $4 is way too low of a cost?

Mimic: Well the setup here is weird, makes games almost impossible to 3 pile for one. I guess that there would have to be 72 Mimics to account for a 6 player game with Young Witch+Ruins (12 action supply piles!). I'm not sure whether the on-play of this actually works within the rules, Band of Misfits things are always a bit of a danger zone. I think it needs an "this is that card until it leaves play" too to match Band/Overlord. Being able to be any Action is probably dangerous too, might want to put a limit on that. Potion cost is a clever way to make it difficult for the player uncovering these to buy them all up before other players have a chance.

Blockade: I personally don't think I'd enjoy playing with this, having to make this decision once at the start of the game seems like it could take a while to think through, doing it 3 times will slow the start of the game to a halt. I don't much care for the gameplay either, with the choices being hidden it'll be impossible to play around and just come down to the shuffles whether you get the points for it. If you got the points for gaining one of your choices at least you could play towards it. But if you enjoy that kind of thing then go for it!

Thanks for the input Gazbag. I was just looking at some of your cards and I'm quite impressed. They are generally straight forward and anyone using them should have an easy time knowing what to do with it. My cards.... not so much. I'd like to respond to a few of things (not all though since it is quite late currently).

Army - You nailed this one, but I should state that my playtesting has shown in standard games that you can get about 2-4 cards on your Army mat and 2-4 Army cards by around turn 13 or so. Army is a powerhouse at this point, but the game is generally about over and any more building might cost you the game. So yes, getting 5-6 Army cards and having them beefed out would result in some boring games, but a skilled player should be able to beat an opponent trying to overbuild Army (at least this has been the case in my limited testing; edge cases are sure to exist).

Heir - I can see a point for making this cost $6. It's true that hitting $9 consistently shouldn't be too hard on most boards, but it takes longer when you have to spend a bunch of money on Heirs that won't do anything for awhile. Kind of another overbuild card, but as an underbuild kind of player, I think I can punish an opponent going for too many of these.

Royal Decree - You and Aquila both brought up the Mandarin/Bonfire thing and my first reaction was "That is freakin' awesome. Why didn't I think of that!?" Well, it was of coarse an unintended use of the card and I removed it (v0.2). Probably no way to make that a viable in another card right? The on-gain effect is the core of the card. Everything else about it really revolves around this and not the on-play ability.

Slumlord - Everyone seems to love Slumlord. What does that really say about you people? :) I also really like how it plays, but can see games where it is too strong. Of coarse that's kind of Dominion for you. Some combos are ridiculous, just hopefully fun and somewhat fair at the same time. But hitting Slumlord and Swindler turn 3! Ugh, so sorry world.

Stadium - This is probably my most tested card and I'm confident in saying it's balanced. Caravan Guard is actually weaker than Silver and without the reaction is sub-cost $3. It's the reaction that makes it more useful. So yes, Stadium hits $1 easily early on, but that's not very good for the price. The $3 to $4 range is where the real value is, but don't forget you can completely whiff with this and get $0. EDIT My first version specifically said to remove the tokens, but it seemed unneeded. I think people will in general know to discard them and to help with the people who are unsure I will address it in the expanded rules.

Lost Temple - Like Chapel this card is way under priced for it's power, but on purpose. Also like Chapel, Lost Temple needs other cards to work well. Having +Buys certainly helps turn it into Lost City's, but those are hard to come by in cantrip form. And lastly like Chapel, I wanted every opening hand to have access to it, so $4 seemed fair.

Old Witch - Yeah, the delayed reaction makes this one manageable, but having 10 Curses waiting in the shadows for that first Victory buy is scary. There are ways around this, but I think Old Witch is still something to be feared. You do give up a lot to open with them though, so it seems balanced.

Crane - Always thought this should be $5, but changed it to $4 for some reason. Haven't playtested this one yet, but I think the -1 Card token will definitely sting a bit in a mirror match. Playing as Laboratory is nice, but drawing blind could leave you with that last Action and a -1 Card token. Playing as Smithy saves you from that, but may draw Actions dead. These are at least the decisions I was hoping a player would need to consider with it.

Mimic - 72 Mimic cards and you might never see a single one! Haha. Thanks for doing the math on that! I knew it would be a lot, but never bothered to get a number. Certainly a card that will never be published, but thank heaven for blank cards! I had the "this is that card until it leaves play" text in it at one point, but cut it for the sake of brevity. I don't think it actually needs it. I believe it just changes how it interacts with some gaining cards like Changling and Disciple. For instance if you Disciple an Overlord, you don't gain an Overlord, but the card Overlord was played as. Disciple a Mimic and you actually gain a Mimic, which I'm fine with. They are so hard to buy, I think a few edge cases for gaining them is fine. Of coarse I may be wrong and would love to hear if I am.

Blockade - I completely understand about Blockade. When I first made it I thought, "What the hell did I just make!" I was very nervous about it for a long time, but after a few games, it became quite natural to play with. I generally like to spend 4-5 minutes analyzing the board anyways so this certainly fits right in with my play style. I think most boards are quite predictable so there should be some easy points, but it also opens up opportunities to go for unusual combos where your opponent has not likely placed anything. If you ever want to try it, maybe agree to place everything within the first 5 cards to lessen the fear of giving your opponent 6-10 points. Or maybe this is something I should just put into it?

Well thanks again for the comments. I'll have to get back over to your cards soon and post a few things. Maybe even play test some stuff. Take care!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 08:23:39 pm by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2018, 03:46:02 am »
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If I got this correctly e.g. a village pile becomes empty, one player has the chance to buy that Mimic underneath it and can use it now to make Mimic on play e.g. a double Laboratory when it mimics a Smithy (variant). Assuming that there are no other Potion cards in the Kingdom, as that player cannot use the Potion for anything else until a second pile empties Mimic just becomes an ordinary Lab which is not that impressive. So Mimic is basically BoM with an extra Action, no cost-limit and a high opportunity cost.
My point is that this is not nearly as crazy as it seems at first.

It has +1 Card and +1 Action before becoming another card, so playing it as Smithy would yield +4 Cards and +1 Actions, which is equal to three Laboratory plays. I think everything you said is still correct though. It's strong, but comes at about mid-game and can be very awkward if it's the only Potion in the Kingdom. I think it's power level is unquestionably strong, but the opportunity cost to get it can be too high at times to even make it worth it. It all depends I guess.

EDIT And yes, you got the setup part perfectly!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 03:54:30 am by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2018, 03:51:43 am »
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Thanks for making these cards. Is it possible to get hi-res versions of the cards (even in a zip file somewhere)? I find the hi-res files improve the clarity and look when I'm printing them out.

You're very welcome. It can be nerve wrecking sharing cards you've worked so hard on so I greatly appreciate the thanks. I'm currently trying to implement a way to expand the card thumbnails, but need to learn some more of how to code on these forums. So it may be a bit, but high-red images will be coming. If you need them sooner I can try and get those to you through email or some photo sharing website.

EDIT You should now be able to click on the images to enlarge them. Not sure if they save to this larger size or not. Let me know.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 04:33:43 am by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2018, 08:21:19 pm »
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Stadium: This should perhaps tell you to remove the tokens when you discard it from play?
My first version had this in the text, but it seemed unneeded. I think people will in general know to discard them and to help with the people who are unsure I'd address it in the expanded rules.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2018, 05:01:02 am »
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Lumber Camp is interesting. I am not sure I totally like it but that's probably only due to the inexistence of offical terminal cards that only draw 1. I think it is sound.

About Canal, it should specify whether you shuffle your deck afterwards or whether you can put the green anywhere in your deck, like Secret Passage.
Like all nonterminal cards that can gain Victory tokens it should be treated very carefully and I am not sure whether the condition is harsh enough. On the other hand we know from Settlers how frequently the discard pile doesn't exist.
Groundskeeper only gains VPs when you make your deck worse and progress towards the end whereas this can be used once you have a moderate amount of green in your deck or from the very start on in games in which you cannot or do not get rid of your Estates. And even though the anti-Lab effect seems nasty it just makes the card roughly be "+1 Action +1 VP" and in the presence of sifters it is no big deal (especially if the card is meant as to be worded like Secret Passage which is my guess). With Shepherd it is obviously bonkers.
In short, it could be OK but I fear it is not.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2018, 07:27:34 am »
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Lumber Camp is interesting. I am not sure I totally like it but that's probably only due to the inexistence of offical terminal cards that only draw 1. I think it is sound.

About Canal, it should specify whether you shuffle your deck afterwards or whether you can put the green anywhere in your deck, like Secret Passage.
Like all nonterminal cards that can gain Victory tokens it should be treated very carefully and I am not sure whether the condition is harsh enough. On the other hand we know from Settlers how frequently the discard pile doesn't exist.
Groundskeeper only gains VPs when you make your deck worse and progress towards the end whereas this can be used once you have a moderate amount of green in your deck or from the very start on in games in which you cannot or do not get rid of your Estates. And even though the anti-Lab effect seems nasty it just makes the card roughly be "+1 Action +1 VP" and in the presence of sifters it is no big deal (especially if the card is meant as to be worded like Secret Passage which is my guess). With Shepherd it is obviously bonkers.
In short, it could be OK but I fear it is not.

Yes, Lumber Camp is pretty meh, but I wanted to try and explore some simple mechanics that haven't been tried before. The simple stuff seems to be the hardest to get right. It's a little too good with standard Village, but other than that it plays how I'd like it to.

Canal can only put Victory cards directly on top of your deck. There is no choice in the placement. I believe the wording on this should be fine. Cards like Mandarin use the same terminology. As for it's power level I'm unsure. I created this before Shepard/Pasture came out so it slipped my mind to test for that combo before posting. I'll have to playtest it to make sure it's not too wild. In any case, I envision bumping the price to $3 on this.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm a big fan of your cards so it's nice to have your input.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2018, 07:51:45 am »
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Thanks man. I must have misread Canal as "into" your deck and as you said, only playtesting will reveal whether the condition is harsh enough or not (I don't think that the price of the card matters much).

Astrolab is cool and the mixed, scaled price might be a way to circumvent the problem that DXV encountered during playtesting a double Lab:

Quote
One of the first Debt cards was +3 Cards +1 Action, for some large amount of Debt that I tweaked some. It was an interesting card to consider. It's two Laboratories in one card; that's different in various small ways from actually having two Labs. In the end it seemed too strong too early.

I like the general idea of Treaty, i.e it being a one-shot Event, I like the trade-off between an option you want immediately and an option you want later in the game and above all I like that the card is political / anti-kingmaking / prevents runaway leaders in a 3P game. But I fear that the second option will preemptively shut down engine play in most Kingdoms. Even if there is a second village you have to buy them evenly, anticipating that one of them will be perma-Enchantress-ed.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2018, 09:14:30 am »
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Maybe Mimic could instead be something like this:

Mimicry, Event, Potion cost
If there is at least one empty supply pile, gain a Mimic from its pile.

Mimic can be reduced to about 10 copies, may lose the setup and just has to say "this is not in the supply". Also it can lose the "non-Mimic". Oh, and you can give it a wacky non-Potion cost, e. g. 6*.

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2018, 10:04:05 am »
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I really like Astrolab. One concern is that the card is explosive enough that once you get it in your deck the debt is trivial to pay off, but I think here the punishment is severe enough that that won't happen.

Treaty is way, way too brutal. It's extremely likely to shut the other guy down completely. You have to get a Province first, but this makes it worse, in a way. The first person to get a Province will be able to hobble his opponent to such an extent that it will be difficult for him to even get his own Province if he doesn't already have one. It's Tournament on steroids with a liter bottle of caffeine.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 10:05:49 am by Commodore Chuckles »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2018, 12:01:51 am »
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Thanks man. I must have misread Canal as "into" your deck and as you said, only playtesting will reveal whether the condition is harsh enough or not (I don't think that the price of the card matters much).

Astrolab is cool and the mixed, scaled price might be a way to circumvent the problem that DXV encountered during playtesting a double Lab:

Quote
One of the first Debt cards was +3 Cards +1 Action, for some large amount of Debt that I tweaked some. It was an interesting card to consider. It's two Laboratories in one card; that's different in various small ways from actually having two Labs. In the end it seemed too strong too early.

I like the general idea of Treaty, i.e it being a one-shot Event, I like the trade-off between an option you want immediately and an option you want later in the game and above all I like that the card is political / anti-kingmaking / prevents runaway leaders in a 3P game. But I fear that the second option will preemptively shut down engine play in most Kingdoms. Even if there is a second village you have to buy them evenly, anticipating that one of them will be perma-Enchantress-ed.

Canal - You're likely right about the price increase not mattering, but I'd feel better about 5/2 split players not being able to open Canal and say a $5 power trasher. I can see the $3 cost making it a little more difficult to 3 pile as well.

Treaty - Definitely comes down to the board on this one. Single village boards are probably the most vulnerable to being blocked and will force alternative strategies. Can't overlook the power of the extra $5 cost card early on either. That at times may provide enough deck acceleration that the block will come too late to have a real effect. At least these are the decisions I'm hoping players will have to make. In the games I've play-tested, a few had the only villages blocked, but the decks were diverse enough that it hurt, but it wasn't crippling.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2018, 12:05:46 am »
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Maybe Mimic could instead be something like this:

Mimicry, Event, Potion cost
If there is at least one empty supply pile, gain a Mimic from its pile.

Mimic can be reduced to about 10 copies, may lose the setup and just has to say "this is not in the supply". Also it can lose the "non-Mimic". Oh, and you can give it a wacky non-Potion cost, e. g. 6*.

This is a great suggestion! Will definitely make the card print simple and more clear. I do want to keep the price and mechanics the same, but I think these all can be ported over. Hooray for more Potion cost Events!
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2018, 12:23:14 am »
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I really like Astrolab. One concern is that the card is explosive enough that once you get it in your deck the debt is trivial to pay off, but I think here the punishment is severe enough that that won't happen.

Treaty is way, way too brutal. It's extremely likely to shut the other guy down completely. You have to get a Province first, but this makes it worse, in a way. The first person to get a Province will be able to hobble his opponent to such an extent that it will be difficult for him to even get his own Province if he doesn't already have one. It's Tournament on steroids with a liter bottle of caffeine.

Thanks for the input Commodore!

Astrolab - Could be too explosive, but a few, basic baseline test should figure this out. I'll keep you posted.

Treaty - My play-testing of this has shown the block is powerful, but can be managed with diverse enough decks. If diversity isn't an option, taking the extra $5 cost early should give you quite an advantage over an opponent who is going for the block. Enough to get a few Provinces before your opponent gets even one? That probably also depends on the board. You probably don't want to be the first person to buy a Province, but you should be prepared to grab one as soon as another player does. It's a tough balance to maintain, but I think it makes for interesting games. I'm not saying Treaty is not potentially overpowered, I'm just saying my test so far have shown it's balanced. I'll keep you posted if further testing proves otherwise. :)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 12:25:03 am by Kudasai »
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Aquila

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2018, 11:07:04 am »
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I'll try to take a different slant on what others have said:

Lumber Camp - it's a simple card with a bonus that can affect when you play it in your turn. Easy to conclude it's fair and balanced as is, but could it cost $3 if Woodcutter was uninteresting at the price?

Canal - it can feel a bit boring to weaken your deck power for one extra point, and sometimes it won't even do anything. So yes it's a cheap cantrip you can pick up with a spare buy but will you want to, will it feel nice to? I get the sense this is a niche card, one that depends a lot on others for it to become worthwhile. But, in such cases (like overdraw, Inheriting Canals or something else, sifting), you get the same thing as with Gamble, an infinite source of VP that unlike Monument or Plunder doesn't compel players to bring the game closer to its end, so games can drag on.

Astrolab - test this out with Vault. Without handsize reduction Vault can guarantee you $6 without any Treasure in play, and later Astrolab will increase handsize for Vault to yield more $ from. You'd want this to be a very powerful combo, but not an imbalanced one.

Treaty - I'm thinking about a player's thought process with this one, right at the beginning of the game. Everyone could feel scared about buying any more than 1 copy of an Action card, or going for any payload Action, or really devising any definite strategy at all; because doesn't every game strategy hinge around a single card? By the time a Province is bought deck strategies are established. So surely everyone's going to be willing inside themselves, "please, everybody just take a $5".
So if you took that bit off, so everyone gets to open with an extra $5, is it really interesting?
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2018, 01:14:31 pm »
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I agree that Treaty is really awful and that Canal breaks the common rule that VP cards need to progress the game. I feel Gamble runs into the same trouble, though probably a golden deck using it isn't all that great. Welp, if that card is some unfriendly attack like Ghost Ship (or instead, Monument), maybe it's good enough.

I do like Lost Temple, though. If you really want to trash four cards, you won't be needing that buy, either way. Sweet.

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2018, 02:23:53 pm »
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I think the problem with Treaty isn't necessarily how balanced the options are but that the 2nd option leads to unfun games when it's good, basically for the reasons Commodore Chuckles pointed out. You know, here's a cool deck to build that relies on a key card to work (a village being the most obvious case) oh wait no Treaty is here, guess we're rushing Provinces and playing big money instead.  Another big issue is that it's basically a targeted attack in 3+ player games and that's no good. I'd prefer it if it gave you a bigger friendly effect if you wait till you get a Province, like placing your +Card token or gaining 3 $5s or even gaining a special powerful card .

Astrolab is cool, but isn't the word astrolabe? What's the thinking behind the cost? Is it just so that it can't be gained with cards like University? I guess you'd need to test this a lot to get the right price down, seems like a reasonable starting point.

Lumber Camp is also cool, it's terminal +1 Card but only when you have spare actions so it never really faces the usual problems associated with terminal +1 card. I also enjoy cards that make you sequence your actions differently, usually you'd save your Woodcutters till the end of the turn but this rewards you for playing them mid-turn. I like this one... I have a soft spot for Woodcutters for some reason.

Canal I think I agree with others here, worse than not progressing the game, this is more likely to slow games as it's making you topdeck dead cards. If you're set on testing it before you decide on it though I'd flag Mill as another potential problem card with this, it can seed your discard with victories and is a victory that you aren't sad to topdeck itself too!
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2018, 01:38:10 am »
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I think the problem with Treaty isn't necessarily how balanced the options are but that the 2nd option leads to unfun games when it's good, basically for the reasons Commodore Chuckles pointed out. You know, here's a cool deck to build that relies on a key card to work (a village being the most obvious case) oh wait no Treaty is here, guess we're rushing Provinces and playing big money instead.  Another big issue is that it's basically a targeted attack in 3+ player games and that's no good. I'd prefer it if it gave you a bigger friendly effect if you wait till you get a Province, like placing your +Card token or gaining 3 $5s or even gaining a special powerful card .

Astrolab is cool, but isn't the word astrolabe? What's the thinking behind the cost? Is it just so that it can't be gained with cards like University? I guess you'd need to test this a lot to get the right price down, seems like a reasonable starting point.

Lumber Camp is also cool, it's terminal +1 Card but only when you have spare actions so it never really faces the usual problems associated with terminal +1 card. I also enjoy cards that make you sequence your actions differently, usually you'd save your Woodcutters till the end of the turn but this rewards you for playing them mid-turn. I like this one... I have a soft spot for Woodcutters for some reason.

Canal I think I agree with others here, worse than not progressing the game, this is more likely to slow games as it's making you topdeck dead cards. If you're set on testing it before you decide on it though I'd flag Mill as another potential problem card with this, it can seed your discard with victories and is a victory that you aren't sad to topdeck itself too!

Treaty - It's as the old saying goes, "A good agreement is one with which both parties are equally dissatisfied." I actually did tinker around with a positive type effect that used this mechanic, but because I am a glutton for Dominion punishment I opted for this. My biggest fear was that this would lead to BM type games, but none of my play-testing panned out that way. I think Dominion in it's current state (post Nocturne) is in the best state possible for diverse card play and there are generally 2-4 cards you can come to rely on in a Kingdom. The targeted attack was the best thing I could think of when playing with 3-6 players. I'm open to other suggestions, but I think this works fine. I guess you just don't want to be in the lead when it comes time to make a Treaty, or at least appear to not be in the lead. This card really does change the game a bit, but I strongly believe it's in a good way. It's easy to focus on the blocking mechanic, but I think starting out with an extra 5 cost turn 1 is going to be about as powerful most times. The fun is trying to figure out when to go which, and is your opponent going to punish you for it.

Astrolab - Astrolabe is a sort of instrument; astrolab is a word I made up that sounds like a bigger, badder laboratory. :) I won't go into to much detail about the pricing choice, but I had to settle on an above fair price to pay for it and make sure it was possible to achieve that in every game. I concluded (hopefully correctly) that 5 Coin and 5 Debt would be a steal for this, which can be achieved with only two Golds in play. Of coarse you're likely not playing other Treasures in your hand in this scenario so there is a hidden opportunity cost. A Platinum would really do the trick also, but really my hope is that people will seek out Coin from Actions if possible.

Canal - Really only intended for this to help with early game trashing and work in some niche scenarios, not to be a power source of VP tokens. But there seems to be a few niche applications that make it a bit too strong. Other than that I think it's pretty fair. The VP token isn't guaranteed and most Kingdoms it doesn't work with overdraw. I still find it interesting, but perhaps I should go back to a cost 5 Coin version where you could also topdeck a Treasure for a Coin.

Lumber Camp - I too have a soft spot for Woodcutters. (Tears)
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2018, 01:52:28 am »
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Getting an extra $5 in the opening is definitely very strong. But what if none of the $5s are cards you want to open with (junkers, trashers) and the Kingdom presents a nice opportunity for an engine but with just one village? Then I am pretty sure that the threat of Treaty will be to shut down that village one day and all players will play BM.
Also note that if the other guy plays money he will also get a Province relatively early so he can hit you with Treaty soon enough (not that getting hit late by Treaty would not also totally shut down an engine).

Did you test Treaty in 2P games? Because here the problem is more pronounced: engines are easier to build (you get more pieces) and hurting your opponent is always as good as helping yourself whereas in multiplayer you just hurt the leader and struggle for position.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2018, 01:59:17 am »
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I'll try to take a different slant on what others have said:

Lumber Camp - it's a simple card with a bonus that can affect when you play it in your turn. Easy to conclude it's fair and balanced as is, but could it cost $3 if Woodcutter was uninteresting at the price?

Canal - it can feel a bit boring to weaken your deck power for one extra point, and sometimes it won't even do anything. So yes it's a cheap cantrip you can pick up with a spare buy but will you want to, will it feel nice to? I get the sense this is a niche card, one that depends a lot on others for it to become worthwhile. But, in such cases (like overdraw, Inheriting Canals or something else, sifting), you get the same thing as with Gamble, an infinite source of VP that unlike Monument or Plunder doesn't compel players to bring the game closer to its end, so games can drag on.

Astrolab - test this out with Vault. Without handsize reduction Vault can guarantee you $6 without any Treasure in play, and later Astrolab will increase handsize for Vault to yield more $ from. You'd want this to be a very powerful combo, but not an imbalanced one.

Treaty - I'm thinking about a player's thought process with this one, right at the beginning of the game. Everyone could feel scared about buying any more than 1 copy of an Action card, or going for any payload Action, or really devising any definite strategy at all; because doesn't every game strategy hinge around a single card? By the time a Province is bought deck strategies are established. So surely everyone's going to be willing inside themselves, "please, everybody just take a $5".
So if you took that bit off, so everyone gets to open with an extra $5, is it really interesting?

Lumber Camp - I considered a $3 Coin, but I recall reading that Woodcutter was priced fairly at $3 Coin, it just got cut purely for being bland. Although this is sometimes identical to Woodcutter, on some boards it is clearly superior. I think $3 would be just a bit too low for it's potential power.

Canal - As more and more combos come to light I think this needs a price bump and some added effect to justify it. Beyond these few interactions, I think Canal is fine for what it does, but it does need some attention.

Astrolab - Great combo catch! I hadn't thought of this one. I also expect this to be powerful. Even if it's a combo that ruins a game, those already exist and pop up from time to time. I'll have to see what playtesting shows. Thanks again for the suggestion.

Treaty - Sure, everyone wants everyone else to take the $5 card, but it's the not knowing what your opponent will do that I think makes it interesting and opens up opportunities to play mind games with your opponents that can have actual results on the game. I think everyone has been very focused on the attack portion, but I think most boards are diverse enough to support 2-4 strategies. I really think anyone who just goes BM is still going to loss to a good player with an Action based strategy (with or without having a Treaty token on them). All playtesting thus far has supported my statements, but you can never play test enough!
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2018, 02:11:32 am »
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Getting an extra $5 in the opening is definitely very strong. But what if none of the $5s are cards you want to open with (junkers, trashers) and the Kingdom presents a nice opportunity for an engine but with just one village? Then I am pretty sure that the threat of Treaty will be to shut down that village one day and all players will play BM.
Also note that if the other guy plays money he will also get a Province relatively early so he can hit you with Treaty soon enough (not that getting hit late by Treaty would not also totally shut down an engine).

Did you test Treaty in 2P games? Because here the problem is more pronounced: engines are easier to build (you get more pieces) and hurting your opponent is always as good as helping yourself whereas in multiplayer you just hurt the leader and struggle for position.

I've only tested in 2P games. I also am fearful that this will lead to BM like games, but so far the Kingdoms have been diverse enough that even when losing the only village, engines were still more attractive. I will one day do some baseline test to see how single village engines with the $5 boast fair against big money. If BM is too strong, perhaps the early boast can be upped to two cards of some in-determined coin value. I've also thought about a Setup clause that adds a few extra Kingdom cards to add even more diversity. Just ideas for now though. Perhaps this needs some tweaking, but I think the core mechanics are fine. Any thoughts on that?
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2018, 02:12:07 am »
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The thing with Treaty is simply, it's a directed attack, being hit by it will lose you the game (believe it or not), and the only way to ensure you won't be hit by it is to be a threat yourself first so nobody attacks you. But as you are the biggest threat, why not simply attack and annihilite your opponents. I really feel "Nuclear warhead" is a more fitting name.

The only way to have a decently fun game with Treaty is if nobody ever uses it (to attack). If you use it early to build faster, then it sucks to be you, cause you just gave up your only way of keeping others from eradicating you. Well, what does that say about the card?

You could very well try to make players go for diverse strategies without having to resort to a mechanic where you can attack exactly one other player and everybody just wishes the Event didn't exist. Do a Landmark that rewards you for having many different cards. Or rather, use Museum, which already exists. If you must, do anti-Museum which gives you - 1Vp per card you have the most copies of. That too isn't much fun, and also fairly redundant, but at least it doesn't make Dominion degenerate into a game about balance of terror.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2018, 02:20:48 am »
+1

I really think anyone who just goes BM is still going to loss to a good player with an Action based strategy (with or without having a Treaty token on them). All playtesting thus far has supported my statements, but you can never play test enough!
Sorry but I don't get how this is supposed to technically work unless there are 2 splitters in the Kingdom. If I have a hand with 2 villages and 2 Smithies I can play them to get a hand of 9 cards and the chance to play further Actions. If I get shut down by Treaty I can increase my hand to 7 (with one of the cards being dead) without the chance to play further Actions.

No matter how brilliant a player you are, unless there are Throne Room variants, Lost Arts, Summoning or another village in the Kingdom the engine gets shut down. And even with 2 splitters available it is questionable whether the engine has any chance given that you have to gain twice as many!

Of course there are other things under the skies besides draw engines. A bunch of Minions or Hunting Parties or Peddlers is also nice. But such a deck also gets shut down! So the best you can hope for is a Prosperity Kingdom in which you somehow get a lot of Grand Markets and a lot of Peddlers, your Grand Markets get castrated so the Peddlers survive.
Somehow I am pretty sure that such decks will not win games.

Don't get my wrong, I like everything about Treaty: the political nature, the trade-off betweens something good for you now or something bad for the other folks later. And I would love it to work but in its current form it cannot so one or both options have to be tweaked.

If you must, do anti-Museum which gives you - 1Vp per card you have the most copies of. That too isn't much fun, and also fairly redundant, but at least it doesn't make Dominion degenerate into a game about balance of terror.
I know you intended this as Landmark or Event but I think that it would be a decent way to change the second option. Instead of enchanting all the villages of the engine player they score -1VP. Or if playtesting shows that the snowball effect of the $5 is too good, -2VP per card from the selected pile.
It would just punish engine play and not totally shut it down.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2018, 02:32:52 am »
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I know you intended this as Landmark or Event but I think that it would be a decent way to change the second option. Instead of enchanting all the villages of the engine player they score -1VP. Or if playtesting shows that the snowball effect of the $5 is too good, -2VP per card from the selected pile.
It would just punish engine play and not totally shut it down.

I'm still holding out hope that the Enchantress block will work, but this is a great suggestion. It really stays true to what I was hoping to accomplish with this. I've gotta say I knew Treaty would be contentious, but the feedback has been a bit jarring. People have had plenty to say wrong about it, but not a lot of potential fixes have been thrown around. So thanks a lot! I'm excited to have a backup plan if the first idea doesn't pan out. I'll keep you posted how testing goes, but it might be some time before I can sit down for that.
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