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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 12173 times)

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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #225 on: October 14, 2018, 06:02:42 am »
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I read Revolutionist as variation on +2 Cards and +2 Coins.
You probably only want to call it when you draw one card, which happens often enough. 1 Card is usually worth less than 1 Coin (Lab being better than Peddler) so Revolutionist is on the one hand slightly weaker than +2 Cards and +2 Coins but you can make up for this via calling more than one Revolutionist. Plus the card is a Reserve and thus able to create huge turns. On the other hand it is trickier to handle than Wine Merchant and Revolutionist is likelier to miss shuffles.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #226 on: October 14, 2018, 06:34:15 am »
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Why is Frontier a Victory card? I feel these are two cards rather than one.

About Pontoon Bridge, I remain opposed to cards punishing players for having leftover buys. Not that I can't imagine Donald X ever doing one of those, given how LastFootnote seems to like the idea.

My issue with it is, wasting buys is something you already don't want to happen, because it wastes potential of your deck. So punishing you for it creates no interesting decisions, like a tradeoff would, but just makes you want something you already want more.

It would probably work just straight giving you 1 debt.

Fragasnap

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #227 on: October 14, 2018, 09:13:24 am »
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My issue with it is, wasting buys is something you already don't want to happen, because it wastes potential of your deck. So punishing you for it creates no interesting decisions, like a tradeoff would, but just makes you want something you already want more.
Relevant Donald X. quote
Punishing buys is okay and there's some of that, e.g. Embargo. Contraband and Delusion try out limiting buys. And Peddler gives you the positive side, where a card costs more for your Remodels.

Regardless, Dominion is not a game of raw Buy\Coin efficiency the way many resource engine games are (which is part of what makes me like it so much).  $7 is often better spent on a Smithy than a Gold while $9 and 3 Buys isn't always better to break into three buys.  The fact that $5 cards are non-trivially comparable to $4 cards keeps the decisions interesting.

Certainly there are cards that can bring to mind +Buy efficiency. Herbalist and Messenger are pretty awful if you aren't going to use the +Buy they give, but really that's more about +Card\+Action efficiency than +Buy efficiency.  There are plenty of cards that are played in multiple that happen to have +Buys like Wharf, Worker's Village, and Villa as well as those trashers which give +Buys in Forager and Trade RouteSquire literally gives +2 Buys, and you can almost never use all of them whenever you need one of them.

Surplus +Buys are often circumstantial, and punishing a player for extras creates a game-state wherein the player must consider extra buys instead of discarding them.  Different game-states are at the heart of Dominion.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #228 on: October 14, 2018, 12:11:14 pm »
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My issue with it is, wasting buys is something you already don't want to happen, because it wastes potential of your deck. So punishing you for it creates no interesting decisions, like a tradeoff would, but just makes you want something you already want more.
Relevant Donald X. quote
Punishing buys is okay and there's some of that, e.g. Embargo. Contraband and Delusion try out limiting buys. And Peddler gives you the positive side, where a card costs more for your Remodels.
That is not a relevant quote. Donald X talks about cards that make buying worse, not about cards that make NOT buying worse.

Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #229 on: October 17, 2018, 06:55:36 pm »
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I read Revolutionist as variation on +2 Cards and +2 Coins.
You probably only want to call it when you draw one card, which happens often enough. 1 Card is usually worth less than 1 Coin (Lab being better than Peddler) so Revolutionist is on the one hand slightly weaker than +2 Cards and +2 Coins but you can make up for this via calling more than one Revolutionist. Plus the card is a Reserve and thus able to create huge turns. On the other hand it is trickier to handle than Wine Merchant and Revolutionist is likelier to miss shuffles.

This makes me more confident that I got the price correct, but it was my intention for players to only be able to call one Revolutionist per draw instruction. I'll have to take a harder look at the wording and make sure it prevents multiple calls.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #230 on: October 17, 2018, 06:59:22 pm »
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Why is Frontier a Victory card? I feel these are two cards rather than one.

I wanted Frontier to still have a function even after a Supply pile was gone. At this point it is essentially just 2VP for $4 and still retains some functionality, albeit much less than being able to gain VP tokens.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #231 on: October 19, 2018, 03:38:10 pm »
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Trying out a few more cards that deal with how much Coin you make in a turn. Unsure of the values, but I wanted to check if the concept and how it plays is clear.

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #232 on: October 19, 2018, 07:51:02 pm »
+2

The wording is super unclear. What counts as a "time" you "make" $5? Playing a single card that gives you $5? Playing the first card that gets you to $5 total and every card thereafter? I suspect it's the latter, as the former will almost never happen. Even then, it's a rather confusing effect that's difficult to word. My best shot is, "The first time you make $5 this turn, +1 Card, and +1 Card every time you play a card this turn."
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 07:56:29 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #233 on: October 20, 2018, 06:55:09 am »
+1

I agree with the Commodore. For instance, what happens when I already have 2$, then play Poor House with 2 Coppers in hand, then play those? Do I draw one card? Two? Three? Four?

Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #234 on: October 20, 2018, 02:16:13 pm »
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Commodore Chuckles - Although I think the wording I've chosen is sound in terms of execution, it is certainly not an intuitive thing a player will automatically know how to play. I do like your wording suggestion, but I think I'm going to try and go that route incrementally. Hopefully somewhere between what you and I have is a good balance. And yes the latter was the correct way this should play.

Asper - I hadn't thought about Poor House interactions. I first this seemed like a cool card interaction. I could see situations where you already have $5, then play a Poor House for $9 (draw), then get say -$1 to put you at $8 (draw), and so on. Essentially I was viewing "make" as any total coin change over $5, so even going backwards would count. However, this is a big oversight as spending Coin during your Buy phase would also cause you to draw as long as your overall was above $5. This might actually work, but this card is already probably too strong, so that's going to go.

Hopefully this new version is a bit more clear. If not, it at least removes any interactions with Poor House and spending coin.



Thank you both for the comments!

 
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #235 on: October 20, 2018, 02:23:58 pm »
+1

I actually first thought of Storyteller and then realized Poor House did the same. So, when I play Poor House and get to 6$, I draw only once, not twice, right? What happens when I play cards that iteratively give +1$? Vault and Storeroom for instance give "+1$ per card discarded". What about Diadem? Is it once per card?

Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #236 on: October 20, 2018, 03:26:38 pm »
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I actually first thought of Storyteller and then realized Poor House did the same. So, when I play Poor House and get to 6$, I draw only once, not twice, right? What happens when I play cards that iteratively give +1$? Vault and Storeroom for instance give "+1$ per card discarded". What about Diadem? Is it once per card?

The intention was for this to draw after each card is played that puts your total coin at $4 or more. As worded though, it would draw each time your total is increased above that amount, so cards like Vault would be quite good. Big oversight! This newest version should address this.



So now hopefully the draw card check is pretty simple and robust.

(1) Play a card.
(2) Did my total coin change?
(3) If yes and my new total is $4 or more, +1 Card.

Applying this to your questions:

-Poor House will only get +1 Card if upon it's resolution (1) you have above $4 coin and (2) it increased your total $. So you could have $4 prior to playing Poor House, but if it nets you $0 or less, you will not get +1 Card.
-Cards that incrementally increase your total $ only get +1 Card if after you resolve them your total coin is at $4 or more.

Other things worth noting:
-This interacts with all cards - Action, Treasure, and Night cards.
-Treasure cards drawn during your Buy phase can then be played to draw more cards, which can then possibly be played to draw more cards.

Thanks for catching yet another big oversight on my part!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 03:29:26 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #237 on: October 20, 2018, 04:52:25 pm »
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An interesting terminal draw card. Given all the official Smithy variants with something more or less interesting sticked onto +3 Cards this is quite fresh.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #238 on: October 20, 2018, 05:14:02 pm »
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I think you forgot the "or" in "4$ or more". Going with Royal Carriage, it should probably say "finish playing" instead of "resolve". Also, the timing is unclear. For instance, if I play Artificer, do I draw the card before discarding?

My suggestion would be: "While this is in play, when your total coins increases to 4$ or more while playing a card, after you finish playing it, +1 Card"

Gubump

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #239 on: October 20, 2018, 08:00:43 pm »
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I actually first thought of Storyteller and then realized Poor House did the same. So, when I play Poor House and get to 6$, I draw only once, not twice, right? What happens when I play cards that iteratively give +1$? Vault and Storeroom for instance give "+1$ per card discarded". What about Diadem? Is it once per card?

The intention was for this to draw after each card is played that puts your total coin at $4 or more. As worded though, it would draw each time your total is increased above that amount, so cards like Vault would be quite good. Big oversight! This newest version should address this.



So now hopefully the draw card check is pretty simple and robust.

(1) Play a card.
(2) Did my total coin change?
(3) If yes and my new total is $4 or more, +1 Card.

Applying this to your questions:

-Poor House will only get +1 Card if upon it's resolution (1) you have above $4 coin and (2) it increased your total $. So you could have $4 prior to playing Poor House, but if it nets you $0 or less, you will not get +1 Card.
-Cards that incrementally increase your total $ only get +1 Card if after you resolve them your total coin is at $4 or more.

Other things worth noting:
-This interacts with all cards - Action, Treasure, and Night cards.
-Treasure cards drawn during your Buy phase can then be played to draw more cards, which can then possibly be played to draw more cards.

Thanks for catching yet another big oversight on my part!

The wording on the card doesn't work as you intend. You intend that if you play a Market when you already have at least $4, you'll draw an extra card because of the Market's +$1. The problem is, when you get additional $ after you have $4 or more, you aren't increasing your total to $4 or more because it already is $4 or more, so as worded, Heir can only trigger once per copy, which is clearly not what you intend.

Here's my recommended wording, which should function exactly how you intend:

While this is in play, after you resolve a card, if it gave $ and you have at least $4, +1 Card.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 08:05:01 pm by Gubump »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #240 on: October 21, 2018, 02:54:27 am »
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I think you forgot the "or" in "4$ or more". Going with Royal Carriage, it should probably say "finish playing" instead of "resolve". Also, the timing is unclear. For instance, if I play Artificer, do I draw the card before discarding?

My suggestion would be: "While this is in play, when your total coins increases to 4$ or more while playing a card, after you finish playing it, +1 Card"

"Resolve" is used briefly in the Dominion 2nd edition manual so I thought it would be okay to use that instead of "Directly after you finish playing". In my mind they meant the same thing, but now the term seems more ambiguous than before. Being shorter I much prefer it, but since the precedent is to use the latter and I'm not questioning what "resolve" actual means I'll change it. Going to be hard to fir that onto my Commander cards. :(

So with this phrasing hopefully it addresses your question about Artificer. You only get +1 card after you play Artificer and you have $4 or more total coin.



I actually first thought of Storyteller and then realized Poor House did the same. So, when I play Poor House and get to 6$, I draw only once, not twice, right? What happens when I play cards that iteratively give +1$? Vault and Storeroom for instance give "+1$ per card discarded". What about Diadem? Is it once per card?

The intention was for this to draw after each card is played that puts your total coin at $4 or more. As worded though, it would draw each time your total is increased above that amount, so cards like Vault would be quite good. Big oversight! This newest version should address this.



So now hopefully the draw card check is pretty simple and robust.

(1) Play a card.
(2) Did my total coin change?
(3) If yes and my new total is $4 or more, +1 Card.

Applying this to your questions:

-Poor House will only get +1 Card if upon it's resolution (1) you have above $4 coin and (2) it increased your total $. So you could have $4 prior to playing Poor House, but if it nets you $0 or less, you will not get +1 Card.
-Cards that incrementally increase your total $ only get +1 Card if after you resolve them your total coin is at $4 or more.

Other things worth noting:
-This interacts with all cards - Action, Treasure, and Night cards.
-Treasure cards drawn during your Buy phase can then be played to draw more cards, which can then possibly be played to draw more cards.

Thanks for catching yet another big oversight on my part!

The wording on the card doesn't work as you intend. You intend that if you play a Market when you already have at least $4, you'll draw an extra card because of the Market's +$1. The problem is, when you get additional $ after you have $4 or more, you aren't increasing your total to $4 or more because it already is $4 or more, so as worded, Heir can only trigger once per copy, which is clearly not what you intend.

Here's my recommended wording, which should function exactly how you intend:

While this is in play, after you resolve a card, if it gave $ and you have at least $4, +1 Card.

I really like your wording, but the way I have it currently should in fact work since it is referencing any changes the last card played did to your total coin and not what your current total coin is.
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Gubump

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #241 on: October 21, 2018, 01:48:01 pm »
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I really like your wording, but the way I have it currently should in fact work since it is referencing any changes the last card played did to your total coin and not what your current total coin is.

Example play 1: You have $3. You play a Copper. It increased your total to $4 or more, so you draw a card.
Example play 2: You have $5. You play a Copper. It did not increase your total to $4 or more, because you already had $4 or more even before playing it, so you do not draw a card.

Example play 2 does not work the way you want it to, as worded, since you cannot change your total $ to something it already is.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 01:53:08 pm by Gubump »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #242 on: October 21, 2018, 07:11:17 pm »
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I really like your wording, but the way I have it currently should in fact work since it is referencing any changes the last card played did to your total coin and not what your current total coin is.

Example play 1: You have $3. You play a Copper. It increased your total to $4 or more, so you draw a card.
Example play 2: You have $5. You play a Copper. It did not increase your total to $4 or more, because you already had $4 or more even before playing it, so you do not draw a card.

Example play 2 does not work the way you want it to, as worded, since you cannot change your total $ to something it already is.

I see your point. Thanks for the heads up and your patience! I'll have to make changes later as I'm currently away from my computer.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #243 on: October 22, 2018, 04:14:51 am »
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Honestly I think that wording can be understood both ways. You are increasing from 4$ or more to 4$ or more. But yeah, it should not be open to interpretation.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #244 on: October 22, 2018, 08:38:10 am »
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I really like your wording, but the way I have it currently should in fact work since it is referencing any changes the last card played did to your total coin and not what your current total coin is.

Example play 1: You have $3. You play a Copper. It increased your total to $4 or more, so you draw a card.
Example play 2: You have $5. You play a Copper. It did not increase your total to $4 or more, because you already had $4 or more even before playing it, so you do not draw a card.

Example play 2 does not work the way you want it to, as worded, since you cannot change your total $ to something it already is.
But for Example 2 you could read it as you increased your total to $6, which is $4 or more, so +1 card.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #245 on: October 22, 2018, 08:42:36 am »
+1

Is Heiress new or has it been there for a while? It's nice that it doesn't leave any room for confusion like Heir does, but obviously doing the same thing for Heir wouldn't make it work. Also, I just saw Slumlord now, and man do I like that card!
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #246 on: October 24, 2018, 04:02:47 am »
+1

Is Heiress new or has it been there for a while? It's nice that it doesn't leave any room for confusion like Heir does, but obviously doing the same thing for Heir wouldn't make it work. Also, I just saw Slumlord now, and man do I like that card!

Thanks and sorry for the delayed response! I do enjoy Slumlord and think the card ordering mechanic has a lot of design space in it. Cards can care about all sorts of things after it and before it. Maybe it even cares about the previous 2 cards!? I was quite happy to see you exploring some of the potential here. Big fan, but I'll keep my comments on your cards to your forum!

So Heiress has been on here, but as Heir. When I recently added a second card that cares about total $, I decided to do a switch on the names. I may even add a third and call it something along the lines of someone who is trying to steal the inheritance. This will likely be a card that cares about players getting an exact total $. Not sure yet how this will work though. :)
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #247 on: October 28, 2018, 02:56:21 am »
+1

I've been thinking about cards that scale with a player's total card size. Sort of like Gardens, but for Action cards. It seems simple enough, but given the lack of any such official cards (ignoring Philosopher's Stone) maybe it just doesn't work. Does anyone know if this has been tried? Officially by Donald X. or by any fancard sets?

Here is my go at it. Used Gardens as a rough baseline for these values. At 30 total cards, this is just a bit better than Forum (cost $5 Coin).

« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 01:47:28 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #248 on: October 28, 2018, 03:16:17 am »
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This is a very cool idea with some minor issues:

I think this could get away with only discarding one card. The current version becomes only strong once you are above 30 cards (unless you are in a dire need of an extra Buy). If you are between 20 and 29 it is: +1 Action +2 Cards discard 2 cards aka a mini-Warehouse aka the first-turn effect of Dungeon (I'd go so far and claim that Dungeon would be stronger if it were a cantrip on the first turn) and thus pretty weak.
On the other hand, if it discarded only one card it would be stronger than Fugitive at a price of $4 in decks with 20 or more cards
So one meta design question that arises is, do you want this to only be good in Gardens/junking/no-trashing games or a generally decent sifter?

Also, the card only works if you are allowed you to count the cards in your discard pile so you should consider whether you want some explicit rule change on the card or think that this is implied anyway and prefer less text on the card (like PS the card could say: Count your deck and discard pile. +1 Card per ...)
Due to the counting it is also slow to resolve which isn't per se bad but something you have to keep in mind in case the folks you play with dislike longer games.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #249 on: October 28, 2018, 03:40:26 am »
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This is a very cool idea with some minor issues:

I think this could get away with only discarding one card. The current version becomes only strong once you are above 30 cards (unless you are in a dire need of an extra Buy). If you are between 20 and 29 it is: +1 Action +2 Cards discard 2 cards aka a mini-Warehouse aka the first-turn effect of Dungeon (I'd go so far and claim that Dungeon would be stronger if it were a cantrip on the first turn) and thus pretty weak.
On the other hand, if it discarded only one card it would be stronger than Fugitive at a price of $4 in decks with 20 or more cards
So one meta design question that arises is, do you want this to only be good in Gardens/junking/no-trashing games or a generally decent sifter?

Also, the card only works if you are allowed you to count the cards in your discard pile so you should consider whether you want some explicit rule change on the card or think that this is implied anyway and prefer less text on the card (like PS the card could say: Count your deck and discard pile. +1 Card per ...)
Due to the counting it is also slow to resolve which isn't per se bad but something you have to keep in mind in case the folks you play with dislike longer games.

Yes, counting does indeed need to be included. Thanks for the catch!

Yes again, I'd want this to be overpriced and underpowered below 30 total cards given how strong it can become at 30+ cards. At this point you are getting a $5 cost card for $4. At 40+ it even becomes a Laboratory with built in sifting.

I have it discarding 2 cards so a player will have a harder time pile driving the Craftsman. If a player got their hands on 10 of these, every 10 total cards would increase their total draw power by 10 cards!

So I certainly want this to reward players who decide to run with bigger decks, but I still think this can be useful in engines. 30 cards is definitely on the cusp of what an engine can handle, especially given a decent amount of these cards will need to be Treasures lest you create a 3-pile opportunity for your opponent. I'd hope making this determination is board dependent and changes from game to game.

I can see the counting being annoying for some, but at least its price won't fluctuate wildly from turn to turn like Philosopher's Stone given that it counts all cards and not just the cards in your deck and discard pile. Wouldn't at all be hard or unreasonable to keep track of your total card count with a piece of paper.



[EDIT: 10/28/2018, 10:48AM PST] Changed the wording so it is hopefully more clear that you count all your cards everywhere. Deck, discard pile, set aside, on a mat, etc.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 01:49:22 pm by Kudasai »
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