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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 7029 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #200 on: August 05, 2018, 05:59:30 pm »
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Barbarian Village's other effect is fine, but like most effects that try to make another card do something else it creates a whole lot of rules questions. For instance, how does this interact with Inheritance? C0okieL0rd solved this by giving each player a special Action card on setup and putting the Estate token on it, something that doesn't work here. Most official cards would do something like this by saying "discard any number of Estates, if you did...". This is what I'd recommend:

I've never quite understood the reasons behind why Inheritance sets a card aside versus putting the token directly onto the Supply pile like the other Adventurer tokens. Is it to prevent inherited Estates from gaining the bonuses from other tokens? If that's the case, Barbarian Village should be okay as it simply adds instructions and is not copying a card.

If your Estates are both inherited and under the effect of Barbarian Village, you'd just get both effects and in any order you choose. I see this acting the same as having two or more Adventurer tokens on a card.

Thanks for the card change ideas. I'm certainly considering them, but wanna think on Barbarian Villages current form a little bit longer before jumping into any of that.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #201 on: August 05, 2018, 06:11:02 pm »
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Barbarian Village's other effect is fine, but like most effects that try to make another card do something else it creates a whole lot of rules questions. For instance, how does this interact with Inheritance? C0okieL0rd solved this by giving each player a special Action card on setup and putting the Estate token on it, something that doesn't work here. Most official cards would do something like this by saying "discard any number of Estates, if you did...". This is what I'd recommend:

I've never quite understood the reasons behind why Inheritance sets a card aside versus putting the token directly onto the Supply pile like the other Adventurer tokens. Is it to prevent inherited Estates from gaining the bonuses from other tokens? If that's the case, Barbarian Village should be okay as it simply adds instructions and is not copying a card.

If your Estates are both inherited and under the effect of Barbarian Village, you'd just get both effects and in any order you choose. I see this acting the same as having two or more Adventurer tokens on a card.

Thanks for the card change ideas. I'm certainly considering them, but wanna think on Barbarian Villages current form a little bit longer before jumping into any of that.

It's because of knights and split piles I believe.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #202 on: August 23, 2018, 06:56:10 pm »
+2

Dinking around with an "underpay" mechanic. Really an overpay mechanic that penalizes you for taking the card for cheaper. Any thoughts? Ideas for other good cards?

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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #203 on: August 23, 2018, 07:56:33 pm »
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I did something like that a while ago. I think the card was called Aqueduct or Town Hall or so... I forgot why I discarded it, though  :-[
Anyhow, I like your wording.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #204 on: August 23, 2018, 08:22:51 pm »
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Dinking around with an "underpay" mechanic. Really an overpay mechanic that penalizes you for taking the card for cheaper. Any thoughts? Ideas for other good cards?


$7 for a Peddler&Lab seems pretty expensive. On the other hand, if you only pay $5 and are able to trash the Curse after the next shuffle, this is on the first play a Peddler and on each subsequent play a Peddler&Lab. So if you interpret it as a $5 Peddler+ it sounds pretty decent.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #205 on: August 23, 2018, 10:52:36 pm »
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I would call it cost and word it like this:
"During your buy phase, you may gain a curse. If you do, the next Steam Engine you buy this turn costs less."
That way, it doesn't get to be a really good deal when the curses run out.

GendoIkari

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2018, 01:31:02 am »
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Dinking around with an "underpay" mechanic. Really an overpay mechanic that penalizes you for taking the card for cheaper. Any thoughts? Ideas for other good cards?



I like the mechanic; but might be way too good when you can gain it without buying it.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #207 on: August 24, 2018, 02:00:12 am »
+1

Found my old card:   ;D



There was a lot of interesting feedback back then you might want to refer to.  :)

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #208 on: October 01, 2018, 11:54:35 am »
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I like the changes to the Traveller line, especially as all cards are now potentially useful which is also a feature of all official Travellers (yes, even Page could be decent with Vineyard).
You do now have: conditional payload, sifter, splitter, terminal draw that Ambassadors and VP.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #209 on: October 02, 2018, 12:04:47 am »
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I like the changes to the Traveller line, especially as all cards are now potentially useful which is also a feature of all official Travellers (yes, even Page could be decent with Vineyard).
You do now have: conditional payload, sifter, splitter, terminal draw that Ambassadors and VP.

I appreciate the vote of confidence! It's funny you bring up Page as that was ultimately what led me to make the current changes to the line. I always thought Page was a useless card; just a stepping stone to the next level in the line. I could see the value of Peasant later in the game with giving a +1 Buy, but if cards like Page could exist, surely I could make an equally useless card in Orphan. In fact I thought it would be funny to make it the most useless card possible. I think I succeeded by the way!

But as you said, Page in fact does have some good uses! Even removing interactions with Vineyard and Peddler, playing a bunch of Pages will boast the attack of your Warriors. So with that realization I knew Orphan needed something more. It's still bad in most situations, but it now has good early game interactions with Landmarks, VP token gainers and of course VP tokens from Grand Witch.

The previous version of the line specifically lacked drawing power, because I was afraid it would make it too strong, but that was just poor thinking. I believe the expectation has been set that Traveler lines should provide, in one way or another, a solid foundation for an engine. Making players jump though the hoops only to have them realize the line isn't working without draw isn't fair to the player.

So I think the line may be a bit too strong for my liking, but I wouldn't say it's any stronger than the other two Traveler lines. It certainly plays a lot different and that is a big plus in my book.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:08:29 am by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #210 on: October 02, 2018, 12:50:32 am »
+1

Found my old card:   ;D



There was a lot of interesting feedback back then you might want to refer to.  :)

Thanks for sharing a link straight to where that conversation took place. I was weary of having to search through 48 pages of text to find it! After reading through it, I'm still unsure if an "underpay" mechanic could work. I don't think cost balancing would be too much of an issue. The big concern, as you and others have pointed out are gainer cards. Adding a debt cost could solve this though. It just makes cost balancing a bit more tricky.

I would call it cost and word it like this:
"During your buy phase, you may gain a curse. If you do, the next Steam Engine you buy this turn costs less."
That way, it doesn't get to be a really good deal when the curses run out.

Interesting idea! Would need additional buys to work though. Maybe the solution is to make Steam Engine itself give buys. That might mean the first Steam Engine has to be paid at full price on some boards. Really the easy solution is to just ignore the problem. How Steam Engine interacts with Cursers seems like a fair part of the game. If a player chooses to go for Cursers, it could go in their favor or it could give their opponent an advantage.

I'm also banking on the fact that so few $5 cost gainers exist that the problem will rarely come up. I'll have to test this all out though.

Thanks to everyone for the input and sorry for the slow response.

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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #211 on: October 02, 2018, 07:15:11 pm »
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I would call it cost and word it like this:
"During your buy phase, you may gain a curse. If you do, the next Steam Engine you buy this turn costs less."
That way, it doesn't get to be a really good deal when the curses run out.

Interesting idea! Would need additional buys to work though. Maybe the solution is to make Steam Engine itself give buys. That might mean the first Steam Engine has to be paid at full price on some boards. Really the easy solution is to just ignore the problem. How Steam Engine interacts with Cursers seems like a fair part of the game. If a player chooses to go for Cursers, it could go in their favor or it could give their opponent an advantage.

I'm also banking on the fact that so few $5 cost gainers exist that the problem will rarely come up. I'll have to test this all out though.
I was intending it to be like peddler's cost thing, so if it's your buy phase you could gain a curse and then buy a Steam Engine for regardless if you have more than one buy or if you have a Steam Engine in play already.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #212 on: October 04, 2018, 11:40:00 am »
+1

Quote
I'm also banking on the fact that so few $5 cost gainers exist that the problem will rarely come up. I'll have to test this all out though.
University, Smugglers, Artificer, Altar, Artisan, Vampire and, most importantly, all Remodelers.
LibraryAdventurer's wording gets rid of all these "strictly better than Lab" problems with gainers.

I think that you could then get away with reducing the cost by $1 though. Getting $2 for a Curse is not the sweetest deal in the world, most of the times you gotta draw into that Curse before you can trash it and then you still had to pay $4 for a Peddler that only becomes better after you shuffle again.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #213 on: October 04, 2018, 12:38:24 pm »
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Quote
I'm also banking on the fact that so few $5 cost gainers exist that the problem will rarely come up. I'll have to test this all out though.
University, Smugglers, Artificer, Altar, Artisan, Vampire and, most importantly, all Remodelers.

Those ARE few. Enough to make it a feature, but certainly not enough to make it a problem.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #214 on: October 04, 2018, 01:58:26 pm »
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I am counting 12 Remodelers: Remodel, Replace, Upgrade, Expand, Remake, Develop, Procession, Butcher, Transmogrify, Dismantle, Governor and Zombie Mason. Plus 6 direct 5-gainers. 18 cards out of 297 (all expansion except Renaissance plus Promos). This is conservatively ignoring cost reduction - Workshop variation combos.

Chances that none of these 18 cards are in the Kingdom are 52,98% (279/297 * 278/296 * ...).
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #215 on: October 04, 2018, 04:41:37 pm »
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I am counting 12 Remodelers: Remodel, Replace, Upgrade, Expand, Remake, Develop, Procession, Butcher, Transmogrify, Dismantle, Governor and Zombie Mason. Plus 6 direct 5-gainers. 18 cards out of 297 (all expansion except Renaissance plus Promos). This is conservatively ignoring cost reduction - Workshop variation combos.

Chances that none of these 18 cards are in the Kingdom are 52,98% (279/297 * 278/296 * ...).

Funny, because I end up with a probability of 87,9%. Which is, uh, a lot more? Anyhow, where's the problem if a card is good with Remode variants? I never heard about Hunting Grounds being banned for it.

Erick648

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #216 on: October 04, 2018, 05:23:29 pm »
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Quote
I'm also banking on the fact that so few $5 cost gainers exist that the problem will rarely come up. I'll have to test this all out though.
University, Smugglers, Artificer, Altar, Artisan, Vampire and, most importantly, all Remodelers.
LibraryAdventurer's wording gets rid of all these "strictly better than Lab" problems with gainers.

I think that you could then get away with reducing the cost by $1 though. Getting $2 for a Curse is not the sweetest deal in the world, most of the times you gotta draw into that Curse before you can trash it and then you still had to pay $4 for a Peddler that only becomes better after you shuffle again.
Why not make it cost $4+1Debt or $3+2Debt? That would make it cheaper, and eliminate most of the potential for using gainers (you could still Butcher an Engineer or something, but that would be rare enough to not be problematic, IMO).  It might look odd (especially if you go for $4+1Debt), but I do feel there's something thematic to "Steam Engine" having Debt in its cost.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #217 on: October 04, 2018, 05:39:39 pm »
+1

I don't really see how this kind of interaction isn't a good thing. Noticing things like this makes you feel clever and is part of the fun of the game, to me at least. It's not like getting an extra $1 on your Lab is particularly broken anyway?
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #218 on: October 05, 2018, 05:51:54 am »
+1

I am counting 12 Remodelers: Remodel, Replace, Upgrade, Expand, Remake, Develop, Procession, Butcher, Transmogrify, Dismantle, Governor and Zombie Mason. Plus 6 direct 5-gainers. 18 cards out of 297 (all expansion except Renaissance plus Promos). This is conservatively ignoring cost reduction - Workshop variation combos.

Chances that none of these 18 cards are in the Kingdom are 52,98% (279/297 * 278/296 * ...).

Funny, because I end up with a probability of 87,9%. Which is, uh, a lot more? Anyhow, where's the problem if a card is good with Remode variants? I never heard about Hunting Grounds being banned for it.
You might wanna check your maths, I did it several times and the probability is definitely 52,98% and thus the issues with gaining Steam Engine directly exist in about half of all Kingdoms.

I think that the best version for the card is LA's Peddler-like suggestion with a price of $6 such that you somtimes just buy it when you hit $6 and want an engine piece and the "Curse for $2" thingy is still in there.
No issues with gainers for a too cheap price ($5) relatively to Lab and no issues when the Curse pile is empty.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #219 on: October 05, 2018, 10:13:55 am »
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I am counting 12 Remodelers: Remodel, Replace, Upgrade, Expand, Remake, Develop, Procession, Butcher, Transmogrify, Dismantle, Governor and Zombie Mason. Plus 6 direct 5-gainers. 18 cards out of 297 (all expansion except Renaissance plus Promos). This is conservatively ignoring cost reduction - Workshop variation combos.

Chances that none of these 18 cards are in the Kingdom are 52,98% (279/297 * 278/296 * ...).

Funny, because I end up with a probability of 87,9%. Which is, uh, a lot more? Anyhow, where's the problem if a card is good with Remode variants? I never heard about Hunting Grounds being banned for it.
You might wanna check your maths, I did it several times and the probability is definitely 52,98% and thus the issues with gaining Steam Engine directly exist in about half of all Kingdoms.

I think that the best version for the card is LA's Peddler-like suggestion with a price of $6 such that you somtimes just buy it when you hit $6 and want an engine piece and the "Curse for $2" thingy is still in there.
No issues with gainers for a too cheap price ($5) relatively to Lab and no issues when the Curse pile is empty.

Huh, I don't really know how I arrived there before... It's still 56% of course, as you only draw 9 other cards, but whatever.

Anyhow, it's not an issue. Remodels don't give you cards for free. To gain a card costing up to 5$ with them, you have to work for it, and if that work pays off a bit better because you cleverly saw an interaction, that's good. I'm fully with Gazbag on this one.

Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #220 on: October 05, 2018, 04:09:38 pm »
+1

Steam Engine(v0.2) - As always thank you everyone for the lively debate and input! This was a rough concept to start so some changes were bound to be needed. Where to start!? How about with the new version.



Price - Gazbag asked about the price of Steam Engine and I'd put it about roughly $7.5 coin. I'm using Grand Market's actual price (~$7.5) as a bench mark as they are very similar in power. So getting it for $7 was probably too good of a deal. $7 coin and 1 debt is not that much more, but it's something. This also makes the cheaper option more in line with what Peddler is worth (~$4.5 coin), since that is in some ways what you are getting when you gain Steam Engine with a Curse card.

Gainers - I don't thing remodel variants would have been a big deal, but $5 cost (and up) gainers would have been a bit too strong. Adding the debt cost eliminates the latter completely (happy) and makes the former very unlikely (sad). Thanks for the suggestion Erick648.

Curses - I do like LibraryAdventurers suggestion (now that I actually am reading your post correctly; sorry!), but as of now I don't think see getting these for cheap after the Curses run out as a big deal. I could eat my words later after some testing, but for now I'm going to keep this part as is. If testing shows an issue, I will use your wording for sure!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 04:11:12 pm by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #221 on: October 12, 2018, 03:57:52 pm »
0

Do you think cards like these could ever work?

       

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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #222 on: October 12, 2018, 04:06:44 pm »
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At first glance I like both of them.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #223 on: October 12, 2018, 05:00:23 pm »
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Frontier doesn't gain VP tokens unconditionally but it nonetheless looks too good unless there is junking or decent pile control.

Let's do some simple maths with Pontoon Bridge. I write how much Buys you use, the + is the Coin equivalent you get out of it whereas the - is the Debt you take at the end of the turn. A simple way to think about it is to first ignore this Capital-like element and just take a look at the net yields.

 1 Bridge -  1 Buy - +1 -1 = 0
               2 Buys - +2

2 Bridges -  1 Buy - +2 - 4 = -2
               2 Buys - +4 - 2 = +2
               3 Buys - +6

3 Bridges -  1 Buy - +3 - 9 = -6
               2 Buys - +6 - 6 =  0
               3 Buys - +9 - 3 = +6
               4 Buys - +12

4 Bridges -  1 Buy - +4 - 16 = -12
               2 Buys - +8 - 12 =  -4
               3 Buys - +12 - 8 =  +4
               4 Buys - +16 - 4 = +12
               5 Buys - +20


Needless to say, this simple countring also ignores all the usual Highways tricks with gainers. But it shows that this card is perhaps not as crazily overpowered as I initially considered a Highway variant with extra Buys to necessarily be.
It could nonetheless be too strong for $4 (I'd first test it at $5) but punishing unused Buys is definitely a great mechanic that avoids the mindless monocard strategies that usually appear with cost reducers.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #224 on: October 13, 2018, 03:32:45 am »
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Frontier doesn't gain VP tokens unconditionally but it nonetheless looks too good unless there is junking or decent pile control.

Let's do some simple maths with Pontoon Bridge. I write how much Buys you use, the + is the Coin equivalent you get out of it whereas the - is the Debt you take at the end of the turn. A simple way to think about it is to first ignore this Capital-like element and just take a look at the net yields.

 1 Bridge -  1 Buy - +1 -1 = 0
               2 Buys - +2

2 Bridges -  1 Buy - +2 - 4 = -2
               2 Buys - +4 - 2 = +2
               3 Buys - +6

3 Bridges -  1 Buy - +3 - 9 = -6
               2 Buys - +6 - 6 =  0
               3 Buys - +9 - 3 = +6
               4 Buys - +12

4 Bridges -  1 Buy - +4 - 16 = -12
               2 Buys - +8 - 12 =  -4
               3 Buys - +12 - 8 =  +4
               4 Buys - +16 - 4 = +12
               5 Buys - +20


Needless to say, this simple countring also ignores all the usual Highways tricks with gainers. But it shows that this card is perhaps not as crazily overpowered as I initially considered a Highway variant with extra Buys to necessarily be.
It could nonetheless be too strong for $4 (I'd first test it at $5) but punishing unused Buys is definitely a great mechanic that avoids the mindless monocard strategies that usually appear with cost reducers.

Thanks for the math breakdown. I always appreciate your commitment to making other people's fan cards the best they can be. It's good to know this could be possible. There are of course many other factors to consider, but I'm sure at some price it will work. I'll test at $4 first, but I imagine this could be wildly swingy depending on how you draw these up. A cost of $5 would be a steep price, but would prevent that from happening.

Also, I'm not too big on the name and lack of associated artwork. Very open to name recommendations!
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