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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 3583 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #175 on: July 02, 2018, 03:36:53 pm »
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Thanks everyone for the replies and insights! A lot of good ideas have been thrown around. Briefly, here are my thoughts so far.

Adventurers - I've only tested this at cost $3 coin and it was insanely fast at Province rushing, so I don't think there is a question about it being good or not. Of course cost $5 coin is much different than cost $3 coin, but I'm sure it would still retain a lot of it's power.

However, I agree with everyone in that I just don't think drawing Treasure cards alone is very fun. So my next test will be essentially the same card, but with no Treasure card condition and probably make it cost $2-$4. My hope is for a draw card that starts slow, is incredibly good mid-game and then stops functioning if used too much.

Great Forest - I didn't overlook that this can straight up be a cheaper Duchy, I guess I just didn't see it as a big deal. My rational is that the opportunity cost even for a cantrip Duchy is really high in the early game and playing Great Forest late game is quite risky in that you can give your opponents a lot of free coin. With all those downsides I felt cost $3 coin seemed correct, but I'll be the first to admit this logic is likely not sound.

As much as I enjoy the giving out free coin concept, I feel player's will agonize too much over whether it's appropriate or not to play a Great Forest. So I think I'm gonna scrap that portion and go with Asper's suggestion that it make Duchies cost less. This really gets at the heart of what I wanted out of this card anyway: to create interesting 3VP card play. Also Duchy gaining is generally a more defined time period in a Dominion game, so that should go along way in helping player's determine when to play Great Forest.

So now that Great Forest no longer gives out Coin that name really doesn't fit. I really like Asper's suggestion of Town Hall. I'd love to use that, but with permission of course.

Burial Gift - Not much I can say other than this likely won't stick around. I think it's interesting mechanically, but probably just doesn't play well in most games. I'll have to think on it more!

Thanks again for the great feedback from everyone. Although I'm not directly commenting on what people had to say, just know I took everything said under consideration. A lot of cool ideas that I think can be used in other cards.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #176 on: July 02, 2018, 03:52:03 pm »
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I think the main thing is that it's a much better opening buy than Moat and imo enough better to cost $3. But it would be a terrible card either way so who cares right?

How is it a good opening buy?

Guarantees at least +$2 so good for hitting $5 and cycles at least 2 cards so you'll shuffle your turn 3 buy in a turn sooner.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #177 on: July 02, 2018, 03:56:20 pm »
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I think the main thing is that it's a much better opening buy than Moat and imo enough better to cost $3. But it would be a terrible card either way so who cares right?

How is it a good opening buy?

Guarantees at least +$2 so good for hitting $5 and cycles at least 2 cards so you'll shuffle your turn 3 buy in a turn sooner.

Yeah but how often do you open Duchess? I mean you do it sometimes, but it's rare, at least for me.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #178 on: July 02, 2018, 04:23:57 pm »
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I think the main thing is that it's a much better opening buy than Moat and imo enough better to cost $3. But it would be a terrible card either way so who cares right?

How is it a good opening buy?

Guarantees at least +$2 so good for hitting $5 and cycles at least 2 cards so you'll shuffle your turn 3 buy in a turn sooner.

Yeah but how often do you open Duchess? I mean you do it sometimes, but it's rare, at least for me.

Fairly often on 5/2 I'd say, well pretty much always if it's alongside a non-terminal $5 and sometimes if it's with a terminal. It's probably the most common time I get Duchess tbh, adding economy to your deck early is great!. I think Adventurer is significantly better than Duchess if we're ignoring costs too.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 04:26:19 pm by Gazbag »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #179 on: July 02, 2018, 04:53:31 pm »
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Ehm, you argued for a price of $3 at which it competes with Silver during the opening.
I'd argue that Adventurer at a price of $3 is virtually always worse than Silver. Sure, you cycle through 2 extra cards but at the price of adding a card to your deck that is bad in nearly all Kingdoms and that will thus have to be trashed in nearly all Kingdoms.

It is like arguing that Baron is brilliant after the first shuffle (which is correct) while ignoring that it may suck later.

However, I agree with everyone in that I just don't think drawing Treasure cards alone is very fun. So my next test will be essentially the same card, but with no Treasure card condition and probably make it cost $2-$4. My hope is for a draw card that starts slow, is incredibly good mid-game and then stops functioning if used too much.
You might want to keep Gazbag's point in mind: you can only play the card a limited number of times. Not being able to draw your $4 villages after having played Adventurer 2.0 5 times seems broken.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #180 on: July 02, 2018, 05:37:14 pm »
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This is getting a bit too into the theory-crafting nonsense that I try to avoid, but Holunder you're just underrating the effect of Adventurer, it wasn't Scout! Like it was absolute trash at $6 but at a cheaper price it's actually a reasonable tool to use to reach those higher prices. I don't understand why you think it sucks later either, it'll start drawing Silvers or better later if you aren't playing badly. Like I'm not arguing it's actually a powerhouse or anything but it seems much better than Navigator or Chancellor(rip) or whatever in many situations where they're good.
I'll just add that Asper/Cookielord's Lumbermen is basically what I'd do to fix Adventurer, aside from the below the line bit, would have to play with that to know whether I like that  :P. Anyway I think that's enough on why I think Adventurer is fine at $3, I'll stop with that and focus on Kudasai's cards.

I think that being able to add or remove a token from Adventurers (or whatever then non-restricted to treasures version is called) would add a lot of play to the card.
The thing with Great Forest is that you can just not play it, so it doesn't have any downsides next to Duchy (apart from interactions with action type, but I think that makes it better more often than not anyway?). Also I don't get the Forest giving out Coin thing, I assumed it was a Great Hall reference?
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #181 on: July 02, 2018, 05:53:49 pm »
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This is getting a bit too into the theory-crafting nonsense that I try to avoid, but Holunder you're just underrating the effect of Adventurer, it wasn't Scout! Like it was absolute trash at $6 but at a cheaper price it's actually a reasonable tool to use to reach those higher prices. I don't understand why you think it sucks later either, it'll start drawing Silvers or better later if you aren't playing badly. Like I'm not arguing it's actually a powerhouse or anything but it seems much better than Navigator or Chancellor(rip) or whatever in many situations where they're good.
I'll just add that Asper/Cookielord's Lumbermen is basically what I'd do to fix Adventurer, aside from the below the line bit, would have to play with that to know whether I like that  :P. Anyway I think that's enough on why I think Adventurer is fine at $3
I already went deeply into it and will just provide the short version: Adventurer is IMO on average worse than +2 Cards because in the situation in which it works, Copper trashers, villages and Treasures in your deck you mostly a) don't want a terminal payload card without extra Buys as you already have Treasures that do the same job or b) play an engine in which you want to use your terminals to draw Actions instead of Treasures.

For $3 you can get cards like Gear or Oracle which also draw Actions and can do the petty sifting tricks (how much green/purple is in the average deck?) that Adventurer can do as well or even better.
I also think that Navigator is significantly better. It is a pretty horrible card but it has its place. If you play Scrying Pool or Herald or Tactician virtual coins is what you want. Despite all the comparisons of Adventurer with cards that provide virtual coins this is simply not what Adventurer actually does.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #182 on: July 03, 2018, 12:23:56 pm »
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I think that being able to add or remove a token from Adventurers (or whatever then non-restricted to treasures version is called) would add a lot of play to the card.
The thing with Great Forest is that you can just not play it, so it doesn't have any downsides next to Duchy (apart from interactions with action type, but I think that makes it better more often than not anyway?). Also I don't get the Forest giving out Coin thing, I assumed it was a Great Hall reference?

Adventurers (Treasure Draw Version) - My first version actually removed a token when you trashed Adventurers. Seemed neat, but isn't always practical. My hope was that for the time you do play Adventurers, it is so good that it more than makes up for the fact that it becomes a dead card after so many plays. The player who best managed their Adventurers plays with what Treasures they have should win. Would work for a Treasure version, but now that I'm going more for an all-purpose draw card, perhaps I should reincorporate a way to remove tokens. Maybe make it a "choose one" type; remove a token, or draw cards costing more than the number of tokens. Using an Action to remove a token seems like an adequate punishment for poor play.

Also, this is going to now need a new name! Any suggestions?

Great Forest - Yes, it is straight up better than Duchy, but I'm okay with that. I really want a card that changes the 3VP gaining dynamic. Most games you grab a Duchy late and only when you can't get a Province. I don't think the lower cost throws the game into chaos (hopefully not!). With Great FOrest there will be more 3VP options, but Provinces will still be the main source of points.

As for the name, yes it was partly a homage to Great Hall. The coin giving was akin to the "Forests Gift" boon, so Great Forest seemed apt. I wasn't in love with the name though. Town Hall seems much better!
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #183 on: July 03, 2018, 12:32:34 pm »
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This seems like a moot point as Adventurers will be changed, but here is the data from one test I did with Big Money.

Adventurers(v0.1) - Cost $3

(1) Silver, (2) Adventurers, (3) Silver, (4) Gold, (5) Gold, (6) Adventurers, (7) Province, (8 ) Gold, (9) Gold, (10) Province, (11) Gold, (12) Duchy, (13) Province, (14) Province, (15) Province, (16) Duchy, (17) Province, (18) Nothing, (19) Province

4 Provinces, 1 Duchy - 14 Turns
8 Provinces, 2 Duchies - 20 Turns
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #184 on: July 03, 2018, 12:57:55 pm »
+2

The thing with Great Forests is, it violates one general principle you can observe in Dominion, but which you'll also find in a lot of other games: Benefits should scale overproportionally relative to your expenses.

Consider Estate, Duchy, Province, Colony and even Dominate. Duchy costs 2 and a half times as much as Estate, but gives three times its points. Province costs less than double compared to Duchy, but gives twice as many points. And so on, each gives disproportionally many points compared to their cost increase.

What's the reason for that? The reason is that we want players to aim high. Even in Dominion, where the number of dead cards alone is a reason to go for a Province instead of two Duchies (or six Estates), the basic VP value still pushes you to go for the more expensive one.

As mentioned, this principle is not unique to Dominion. When I first read about it, it was in an article about fighting games. Nobody wants to learn how to play a complicated character if their relative strength is equal to that one dude who fires Hadoukens by just pressing B. Nobody wants to buy Provinces if there's a card that costs less than half of it and gives half as many points.

Instead, players will buy out the Great Woods, and only then think about what they actually want to do beyond this. If you got almost all of them, great, you already got so many points that 3 Provinces are enough to win (and also you can play them without much risk). Get them equally shared to boost each other and basically start a game where all who went for Forests now can reach Provinces much easier than everyone who didn't. People who try to skip Great Forest to go for Province just lose, making it a non-decision.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #185 on: July 06, 2018, 01:41:53 pm »
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This seems like a moot point as Adventurers will be changed, but here is the data from one test I did with Big Money.

Adventurers(v0.1) - Cost $3

(1) Silver, (2) Adventurers, (3) Silver, (4) Gold, (5) Gold, (6) Adventurers, (7) Province, (8 ) Gold, (9) Gold, (10) Province, (11) Gold, (12) Duchy, (13) Province, (14) Province, (15) Province, (16) Duchy, (17) Province, (18) Nothing, (19) Province

4 Provinces, 1 Duchy - 14 Turns
8 Provinces, 2 Duchies - 20 Turns
I am no simulation expert but I guess that this isn't that much worse or better than BM with 2 other drawing terminals thrown in. So Adventurer looks fine at the first glance.

The main issue though is that an Action card should not just be good with money (Smithy is nice for money and nice for engines) but also good in an engine and here is where Adventurers will mostly fail. Now of course there are Actions which are biased towards money decks like Embassy but not totally.
Of course if you are fine with a narrow card an Adventurer version is OK but if you like a card to be flexible, allow unforseen combos and all the other stuff that makes Dominion, at least to me, so interesting, it is not.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #186 on: July 06, 2018, 05:20:40 pm »
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I believe Smithy BM takes 14.8 turns on average for 4 Provs, if I'm understanding the simulator right lol.
It's probably worth mentioning that as this can't draw actions dead it should play much better with the rest of the kingdom and blow Smithy BM out of the water in a real game of Dominion. Also worth mentioning that Smithy BM is a terrible strategy.

To touch upon the Great Forest thing again, you can have more options for 3vp without it being strictly better than Duchy. At the moment there's no decision here, you just get the Great Forest because it's cheaper and better when it's in your deck. If it had a similar level to Duchy then there'd be a meaningful decision on which you buy, more like Distant Lands vs Duchy. I know Distant Lands is 4vp but that's just a number really, it's more that you have to buy them at a different point in the game as Duchy and there's skill in knowing when it's too late for Distant Lands over Duchy or whether your deck has the terminal space and whatnot. Great Forest has none of this which makes it boring, boring and powerful isn't a great combination in my book.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #187 on: July 07, 2018, 03:14:50 pm »
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The main issue though is that an Action card should not just be good with money (Smithy is nice for money and nice for engines) but also good in an engine and here is where Adventurers will mostly fail. Now of course there are Actions which are biased towards money decks like Embassy but not totally.
Of course if you are fine with a narrow card an Adventurer version is OK but if you like a card to be flexible, allow unforseen combos and all the other stuff that makes Dominion, at least to me, so interesting, it is not.

I agree wholeheartedly! For Adventurers I got caught up in how I could make the original Adventurer concept work without really thinking about if it would be fun. I've applied the "token advancing" mechanic towards what I feel is a more gratifying and fun way - Chaplain. Hard to say if this is balanced. I could see a good argument for it costing $6 Coin at least. I just don't want it to be so inaccessible early on that some players may end up getting it 2-3 turns faster by simple luck. Anyways, here's Chaplain!



To address Asper's and Gazbag's comments on Great Forest. I'm sure you're both quite right about the 3VP game space. I can't argue this definitively, but I don't think a plain Duchy at say cost $4 Coin (maybe even $3) breaks the game as long as the player is only incentivized to buy it early. I think if it's early enough in the game the opportunity cost balances out the reduced price. So in my mind, if I wanna make a card that mixes up the 3VP space I need to address the cheap, late-game gaining issue. Perhaps Distant lands already does this well enough like Gazbag said. Maybe this should be an Event that gains Duchies for cheap. Why are Victory cards so hard to make! Anyways I do appreciate the insight!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #188 on: July 07, 2018, 10:15:18 pm »
+2

Chaplain feels like it would run out of utility fast. I mean sure it's incredible for the first 3 plays, but after that, phew. I'd bump it to +3 Cards.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #189 on: July 08, 2018, 09:33:01 am »
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Chaplain is hard to judge. For the first 3 plays it is better than Laboratory (unless you draw a hand without an Estate and a $2), for the next 3-6 plays it is worse (depends on whether you have $6s or Provinces in your deck/hand) and then it is identical to it.
So if the junk trashing compensates for the trashing of good cards it is similar in strength to Lab.
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Shvegait

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #190 on: July 08, 2018, 06:39:59 pm »
+1

Chaplain feels like it would run out of utility fast. I mean sure it's incredible for the first 3 plays, but after that, phew. I'd bump it to +3 Cards.

Chaplain is hard to judge. For the first 3 plays it is better than Laboratory (unless you draw a hand without an Estate and a $2), for the next 3-6 plays it is worse (depends on whether you have $6s or Provinces in your deck/hand) and then it is identical to it.
So if the junk trashing compensates for the trashing of good cards it is similar in strength to Lab.

Going along with this, when you do get to that point in the game, the card as written would become unwieldy, as you can wind up with an obscene number of tokens on your Chaplain mat, and have to reveal your hand for no reason every time (See, I don't have any $25s. Look, now I don't have any $26s, etc.). If you gave this +3 Cards, it would be such a strong unignorable draw card that I'd expect you'd see this happen in every single game! (if there's an engine, at least)

To balance that, if you did decide to try +3 Cards, I would make the adding a token to the Chaplain mat contingent on actually trashing a card. Then you can't easily bypass the Province (and other good card) trashing by just waiting until you have 9 tokens on the mat.

I was going to say that revealing your hand nearly every time on a spammable card might bog the game down too much, but then I realized Hunting Party already does that... Still, something to consider.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #191 on: July 08, 2018, 08:07:07 pm »
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Chaplain feels like it would run out of utility fast. I mean sure it's incredible for the first 3 plays, but after that, phew. I'd bump it to +3 Cards.

My original thought was to have this at +3 Cards and +1 Action, but thought the end result (an unconditional double lab) would be too much of a reward. Thinking more on how many hoops you have to jump through and how late in the game this would come I think this could work. I wonder though if +3 Cards and +1 Actions will make the mid-game trashing even worse. You draw more cards, but now there's more of a chance you'll hit your good cards.

Chaplain is hard to judge. For the first 3 plays it is better than Laboratory (unless you draw a hand without an Estate and a $2), for the next 3-6 plays it is worse (depends on whether you have $6s or Provinces in your deck/hand) and then it is identical to it. So if the junk trashing compensates for the trashing of good cards it is similar in strength to Lab.

I'd like the end reward to better than a simple lab, so I take your analysis as another reason to try the +3 Cards and +1 Action version out.

Going along with this, when you do get to that point in the game, the card as written would become unwieldy, as you can wind up with an obscene number of tokens on your Chaplain mat, and have to reveal your hand for no reason every time (See, I don't have any $25s. Look, now I don't have any $26s, etc.). If you gave this +3 Cards, it would be such a strong unignorable draw card that I'd expect you'd see this happen in every single game! (if there's an engine, at least)

To balance that, if you did decide to try +3 Cards, I would make the adding a token to the Chaplain mat contingent on actually trashing a card. Then you can't easily bypass the Province (and other good card) trashing by just waiting until you have 9 tokens on the mat.

I was going to say that revealing your hand nearly every time on a spammable card might bog the game down too much, but then I realized Hunting Party already does that... Still, something to consider.

Yeah the unlimited number of tokens you can gain is technically a problem, but I'd just hope player's would agree it's sensible to stop keeping track after the most expensive card on the board has been surpassed. It's not a solution that sits well with me, but it could prove wordy and mostly unnecessary to add text to the card that addresses this.

I see foregoing the purchase of expensive cards until your Chaplains have surpassed that trashing point as just being one strategy for playing the card. I do think players that buy their power cards ($5 and up) and build a deck around protecting those cards will be rewarded over those who just play Chaplains and then build. At least I hope! Testing will have to be done.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 08:09:02 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #192 on: July 09, 2018, 02:15:17 am »
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I do think players that buy their power cards ($5 and up) and build a deck around protecting those cards will be rewarded over those who just play Chaplains and then build. At least I hope! Testing will have to be done.
I doubt that this will happen often as "draw before payload" is a decent rule of thumb (of course it is not that simple as Coin generating cards enable you to buy 5s more easily but it is nonetheless a good guideline).
So why should you buy a Gold or a Goons if they get perchance trashed by Chaplain?

I wouldn't go into the unconditional double Laboratory territory as this is just too good for 5 or 6.
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