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Author Topic: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards  (Read 4067 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2018, 06:39:11 pm »
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I can only speak to how I'd like Funeral and Border Wall to play as they are both untested currently.

Funeral (v0.1) - Gazbag summed this one elegently. I imagine during the early game in most cases a player will want to "bury their Copper" under Estates or Shelters. If not, welcome back Coppersmith; you've been missed! Even if this isn't used mid to late game, my hope is that it's a good enough one-shot trasher that people will still pick it up.

Mid to late game, I can't say much that hasn't already been said. Again I can only speculate how this will play. I just hope this entices players to diverge from normal strategies and play with cards that are seldom touched. +1 Card and +1 Action should make any Action fit into any strategy. You just can't rely on the bonus being around forever, unless you get the last Funeral play off.

So the hope is that funeral is very powerful with calculated play and a disaster for those who just buy a bunch of bridges and try to get a cantrip effect on them. Of course playtesting is needed!

Border Wall (v0.3) - Asper is correct that an Attack type shouldn't be too hard to resolve. Beyond that, there isn't much I can say about this card. It's a bit beyond my reasoning ability and may end up being unbalanceable, but I thought it was an interesting enough concept to share and get thoughts on. I'll try and get some playtesting in soon.

Commanders - I get the elegance of implying one passive effect with something there's only one of, a top discard pile card. But how reliable can it be in practice? Basically, I'm raising the thought: why aren't these using their own mat? Since you have multiple Commanders you seem to want to enable switching between different 'command modes' when there is more than one in a kingdom, and a mat would make this simpler, even if it is adding more components.
That Risen King giving a global effect on trash is well discussed. I firstly wonder when you'd choose to trash one and get an advantage out of it for yourself, and secondly if there is more than one in the trash, I think you'd gain a card per copy in the trash?

Commanders - A mat would be elegant, but playing from the discard opens up a lot of interactions with discarding cards and mid-turn gainers. The absence or inclusion of these cards will say a lot about how reliable Commanders will be. I'm also trying to implement various levels of reliability into each Commander. Marshal only hurts your hand when played, but it allows you to put another Commander in your discard, which I think should be quiet powerful. Osho has no reliability built in, but is very cheap. Risen King has some mid-turn gaining abilities and as you mentioned, has a global impact from the trash. And yes, multiple Risen Kings in the trash means multiple cards gained off of trashing. I haven't revealed General yet (the 4th Commander), but it's Commander effect will apply while in play and while in the discard, so it will be very reliable, but very expensive.

Honestly though, you raise some good questions. The Commander concept is all hypothetical at this point, but play-testing will come soon enough. As always, thanks for your thoughtful analysis Aquila! I really like some of your cards and will soon try my hand at returning the analysis favor, but be warned, my card analysis skills are sub par!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 06:46:51 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2018, 02:40:37 am »
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Isn't the majority of mid-turn gainers that can actually get you a 5-cost card like Marshal(into your discard pile) Remodel variants? I can't think of one that isn't, actually.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2018, 03:08:28 am »
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University, Horn of Plenty, arguably Altar (is that more of a Remodel variant or more of a trasher/gainer?) and more recently Vampire.

About the issue of the strength of Commanders, I am pretty sure that Marshal would be overpowered if it worked all the time.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2018, 03:30:52 am »
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University, Horn of Plenty, arguably Altar (is that more of a Remodel variant or more of a trasher/gainer?) and more recently Vampire.

About the issue of the strength of Commanders, I am pretty sure that Marshal would be overpowered if it worked all the time.

I count Altar as a Remodel variant, whereas Horn of Plenty and Vampire arguably are "mid-turn". That leaves University. Oh, and Smugglers and Jester, I guess.

I think it's save to say that the vast majority of gainers that allow some kind of reliable interaction with Commanders will first reduce your hand size. Whatever that means.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2018, 01:00:29 pm »
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Oops, you are of course right, I totally ignored the mid-turn activate-this-turn aspect.

Commanders are probably best though when you buy them (respectively hand-gain them via Artisan or Wish, play or not play but discard them at the end of the turn) as they are then active for the entire next turn and not just for a part of the current turn.
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Asper

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2018, 01:17:43 pm »
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Oops, you are of course right, I totally ignored the mid-turn activate-this-turn aspect.

Commanders are probably best though when you buy them (respectively hand-gain them via Artisan or Wish, play or not play but discard them at the end of the turn) as they are then active for the entire next turn and not just for a part of the current turn.

Buying doesn't work, as you will cover them up with the cards in play. Hand-gainers just stay hand-gainers. It's good to gain a card to your hand, but it's not like a hand-gained Commander is any better than another hand-gained card. You gain an additional copy and get to use the card as if you had drawn it. That's something Artisan and Wish do, not something Commanders do.

Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #106 on: June 08, 2018, 01:55:05 pm »
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Oops, you are of course right, I totally ignored the mid-turn activate-this-turn aspect.

Commanders are probably best though when you buy them (respectively hand-gain them via Artisan or Wish, play or not play but discard them at the end of the turn) as they are then active for the entire next turn and not just for a part of the current turn.

Buying doesn't work, as you will cover them up with the cards in play. Hand-gainers just stay hand-gainers. It's good to gain a card to your hand, but it's not like a hand-gained Commander is any better than another hand-gained card. You gain an additional copy and get to use the card as if you had drawn it. That's something Artisan and Wish do, not something Commanders do.
Right, buying doesn't work but hand-gainining does as you can then last discard the hand-gained Commander at the end of the turn such that it becomes active next turn.
This is meant as comparison to gaining a Commander mid-turn via something like University. The advantage is that the Commander is active earlier, this turn, but when you play that University late in your turn the Commander might not do that much anymore and you would prefer a hand-gainer like Artisan as this enables you to set up the Commander for the entire (well, until you shuffle) next turn.

Of course this partially depends on the relative strengths of the active and passive effects of the respective Commander. I am mainly having Marshal here in mind which is semi-dead on play but brilliant in discard whereas Risen King is roughly the other way around.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #107 on: June 08, 2018, 06:59:23 pm »
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Border Wall(v0.3) - To further complicate the Border Wall discussion I've made it a split-pile along with Refugees. 5 Border Walls on top and 5 Refugees on the bottom. This goes against having cheaper split-pile cards on top, but hopefully that's more of a general rule and not a hard rule. I have no idea how this is going to work out, but I think everyone agrees Border Village on it's own needed a nerf. So what better way to nerf a card than to share it with it's anti-card? Oh boy, this could be a disaster!
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2018, 07:05:28 pm »
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Buying doesn't work, as you will cover them up with the cards in play. Hand-gainers just stay hand-gainers. It's good to gain a card to your hand, but it's not like a hand-gained Commander is any better than another hand-gained card. You gain an additional copy and get to use the card as if you had drawn it. That's something Artisan and Wish do, not something Commanders do.

I believe it's possible to get around this with Crypt. Very niche! Other than that, I'm trying to make some cost $4 Commanders so more mid-turn gaining options are available. Also very niche, but the more interactions the better.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:14:14 pm by Kudasai »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2018, 03:29:07 pm »
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Sanctuary/Monk: If there's good trashing and no handsize attacks, then with just 2 Sanctuaries you'll have a guaranteed Province every turn.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2018, 08:14:52 pm »
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Sanctuary/Monk: If there's good trashing and no handsize attacks, then with just 2 Sanctuaries you'll have a guaranteed Province every turn.

Sanctuary/Monk - I think you're thinking of 4 Sanctuary cards in play. 2 Sanctuaries would only give Monks +1 Coin each. Even with 4 Sanctuaries, with each Province you gain you have less and less control over how many Monks you gain on the reshuffle. In my chapel game tests, you're able to nab a few Provinces back to back once thin, but then the strategy grinds to a halt. You're forced to buy Treasure in order to get your reshuffles corrected and that takes 6-7 turns. I'm sure it's possible to make this into a golden deck, but I think it would be harder, more complicated and take longer than it appears.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 09:06:31 pm by Kudasai »
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2018, 09:42:37 pm »
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Sanctuary/Monk sure is a weirdo. I'm pretty sure it sucks though, like almost never worth buying? Monk is basically (action) Copper, or if you for whatever reason buy 3 Sanctuaries is a Silver?  Am I misunderstanding the card or what?

It's also very unclear what is meant by draw instructions, is it just +cards? Things that are effected by the -card token? Does Envoy count? How does it deal with Catacombs? 

I still thing Border Wall looks broken, and Refugees also looks broken? Grand Market for $3 yay! Apart from when it's a million vp for $3! I get that you can't buy them if you have a Border Wall in play, but at $3 they're gainable by pretty much everything and shouldn't be too tough to afford while holding back your Border Walls. I suppose Border Wall is also supposed to get Curses in the trash and mess up Refugees? But if players trash their starting Coppers then that won't really happen. The whole package just seems bonkers to me, which is kind of a problem with split piles where winning the split can just decide games.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2018, 12:18:39 am »
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Sanctuary/Monk - I think you're thinking of 4 Sanctuary cards in play. 2 Sanctuaries would only give Monks +1 Coin each.

D'oh! Missed the "2" on the card, sorry.

Sanctuary/Monk - Even with 4 Sanctuaries, with each Province you gain you have less and less control over how many Monks you gain on the reshuffle.

How so? You get the Monks at the start of Clean-up. At that point the Provinces you gained this turn will still be in your discard, so they won't interfere. This really seems to me like a Mandarin/HoP thing where you can top deck the same 5 cards over and over, unless I missed something else.

It's also very unclear what is meant by draw instructions, is it just +cards? Things that are effected by the -card token? Does Envoy count? How does it deal with Catacombs?

I'm pretty sure it works the same as -Card, yes. It specifies "draw" instructions, but when a card tells you to "put X in your hand" that's not the same as "drawing" it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 12:27:04 am by Commodore Chuckles »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2018, 02:45:37 am »
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Sanctuary(v0.1)/Monk(v0.1):
Draw Instructions: Yes, the "draw instructions" refers to anything the -1 Card token handles. So some "draw" cards like Advisor and Envoy are excluded. Catacombs is a tricky one as I'm inclined to say the first part is a reveal clause, which is not draw, but the second part is clearly draw. I'm sure Catacombs with the -1 Card token has been addressed somewhere. Good question Gazbag!

Golden Deck: Keep in mind you need a minimum of 6 cards in your deck for your Sanctuary cards to provide Monks. 5 or less cards and your deck will have 0 cards every time, which does not satisfy the 1 to 4 card requirement. So for the Golden deck strategy let's say you do have 6 cards and you have 5 Sanctuary cards out (Monks = $3 Coin). The play order will go as follows: 1 Card, 4 Monks = $12 = Province; No Monks = $?; 2 Cards, 3 Monks = $9 = Province; No Monks = $?; 3 Cards, 2 Monks = $6 = Not Province. You can see that as you add non-Cantrip cards (i.e. Provinces) you draw less and less Monks for less and less money. This is due to the fact that your overall deck size is increasing. So not a viable, straight-forward strategy, but maybe with some clever cantrip play and/or not using all of your Monk cards could work.

So What's The Point: Well I designed Sanctuary/Monk with a very specific goal in mind. To address a problem I'm sure every Dominion player has encountered and cursed the game as a result. Perhaps it didn't need fixing, but I wanted to give it a shot. So what is this problem? Well, I want to see if someone can figure it out. Not to be difficult, but this is a great opportunity to see how people interpret this. If no one can see what it's true purpose is, perhaps it's a bad concept. Besides this, opening a Silver and 3 Sanctuaries guarantees $8-$10 coin on turn 5. That may be helpful at times, right?

Border Wall(v0.3)/Refugees(v0.1): This has been quite a tough one to test, but so far it seems fair. Both cards have great potential, but keep each other in check in various ways. Perhaps this is a flawed concept, but I think it's worth looking into a bit more. I will of course keep everyone updated! I will likely drop the Refugee Treasure clause to +$1 and discard a card. +$2 is likely a bit much, even though it is conditional.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 03:08:07 am by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2018, 04:45:28 am »
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I like the idea of a split pile with cheaper cards underneath and an antisynergy between the two halves. But I am not so excited about Refugees.

As Gazbag has pointed out, Refugees can be a cantrip Victory token gainer which is something one should generally avoid. But it is not unconditional and getting a majority of Victory cards into the trash requires a huge effort. But after you have jumped through all the the hoops and achieved that hard goal (Rebuild is the only card that comes to mind that could achieve this easily, otherwise you gotta buy Estates and trash them like crazy) the other players could just free ride and buy Refugees. Or you first buy Refugees, buy and trash Estates but then the game is already over.
So my point is that the Victory token option rarely matters. But if it does or could matter it doesn't work well.

About the other option, as already indicated it is simply the standard case and I don't think that the idea of conditioning a card upon a majority of types in the trash really works. With junking and good trashing you could have 30 Curses/Ruins and 21 Coppers in the trash in a 3P game but in a 2P game it is 14 Coppers vs 10 Curses/Ruins.

I think that Refugees is OK if you change it from a Market + Oasis into a Market Square + Oasis:
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+1 Coin

Discard a card.

Safe to say that if this were an ordinary Kingdom card it would have to cost $4 (as it is stronger than Oasis but weaker than Market) but as it is available later and as it is harder to get in the presence of Border Wall it can get away with costing $3. If I were you I'd try something else besides a mixture of offical cards though. I also think that your set could get away with more terminals, you only have 3 so far.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2018, 02:59:20 pm »
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Border Wall(v0.3)/Refugees(v0.2) - Refugees (v0.2) now produces $1 Coin instead of $2. Gazbag and Holunder9, you both bring up good and accurate points, but I simply see these as strengths and weaknesses that need to be considered on a board by board basis, not reasons to not have the cards. My limited baseline testing has shown no matter how Border Wall/Refugees are played solo (as an early game Curser or a late game VP gainer) they are about as good as Big Money. I believe their real strength will come from the other Kingdom cards that tip them to one end or the other of their playable spectrum.

There is a lot more testing to do to ensure this complicated interaction is fair and balanced, but at this initial point I'm happy with how these cards play with each other. The next step will be to see how it plays in various Kingdoms. As always thank you both for the feedback!
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #116 on: June 10, 2018, 03:50:40 pm »
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I also think that your set could get away with more terminals, you only have 3 so far.

Fair point! These are not meant to be a cohesive set by any means, but you are correct, I should put more terminal cards on here. I'm just a bit more unsure about them, but I'll start posting more.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2018, 04:05:43 pm »
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I also think that your set could get away with more terminals, you only have 3 so far.

Fair point! These are not meant to be a cohesive set by any means, but you are correct, I should put more terminal cards on here. I'm just a bit more unsure about them, but I'll start posting more.
Well, there is a clear historic trend towards less terminals, especially with the release of the second edition of the base set, so I understand the "fear of terminality". It did after all nearly break the first edition of the base game (I know this is blasphemy but please don't call the inquisitors) which led to far too many money games.
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Gazbag

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2018, 01:30:23 pm »
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I assume Sanctuary is an attempt to stop opening buys from missing the reshuffle?

Also it's worth pointing out that testing your cards vs big money isn't particularly useful. E.g. Scrying Pool is an incredibly strong card, but Scrying Pool big money is probably worse than pure big money. That's an extreme example obviously, but just because a card doesn't crush big money by itself doesn't prove that it's of an acceptable power-level. The only real use is making sure your card doesn't lead to an obscenely fast Province rush by itself, which isn't the worry with Border Wall.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2018, 02:24:44 pm »
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I cannot judge Smelter because I am not good with cards like Develop and Dismantle but it looks decent.

I like Trade Ship but like all build-up cards you gotta be very careful about the power level. Take Miser, it has to be weak because it would otherwise become too good in too many games.
So what's the potential problem of Trade Ship? If there are decent trashers around you can gain 4 Estates and now have a Province gainer in your deck. Add a village and another Trade Ship and you make as much as any decent engine, 2 Provinces per turn.
I am not claiming that it is broken but any direct, i.e. non-Remodel, Province gainer potentially is which is why I would test it without the 2 tokens for a Victory card.

General is simple and brilliant. I have no idea about how balanced this is but I just love it on first sight.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2018, 02:33:31 pm »
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I assume Sanctuary is an attempt to stop opening buys from missing the reshuffle?

Also it's worth pointing out that testing your cards vs big money isn't particularly useful. E.g. Scrying Pool is an incredibly strong card, but Scrying Pool big money is probably worse than pure big money. That's an extreme example obviously, but just because a card doesn't crush big money by itself doesn't prove that it's of an acceptable power-level. The only real use is making sure your card doesn't lead to an obscenely fast Province rush by itself, which isn't the worry with Border Wall.

Yes, Sanctuary/Monk is meant to be a reshuffle stabilizer. Maybe something like this isn't needed, but I like the concept. Your cards will now never miss the reshuffle, but it comes at the cost of slowing your reshuffles down. Other than that it can be used for pretty good payload.

In my opinion, testing against Big Money (not using the card with Big Money) is only meant to establish a basic baseline for a card. Big Money is just a baseline for the game correct? To me, playing against the game baseline seems like the logical first step. Of course you don't just stop there though. I would then play it with other cards I thought would either support it or counter it to see what it's potential is. If that all seems fair, I'd look at similar cards (if available) to try and make sure the pricing was correct. Then it would come down to actually playing with it and making sure it was actually fun.

Do you have a method you've found works best for you?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 02:36:43 pm by Kudasai »
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2018, 02:40:26 pm »
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I cannot judge Smelter because I am not good with cards like Develop and Dismantle but it looks decent.

I like Trade Ship but like all build-up cards you gotta be very careful about the power level. Take Miser, it has to be weak because it would otherwise become too good in too many games.
So what's the potential problem of Trade Ship? If there are decent trashers around you can gain 4 Estates and now have a Province gainer in your deck. Add a village and another Trade Ship and you make as much as any decent engine, 2 Provinces per turn.
I am not claiming that it is broken but any direct, i.e. non-Remodel, Province gainer potentially is which is why I would test it without the 2 tokens for a Victory card.

General is simple and brilliant. I have no idea about how balanced this is but I just love it on first sight.

Trade Ship(v0.1) - Trade Ship can only gain cards costing exactly the amount on your Trade Ship mat. So if you do have 2 tokens and gain an Estate, it bumps it up to 4 tokens no longer allowing Estates to be gained. Same applies for Duchies and Provinces; you can only gain 1 per game. The wording on this alludes to the card playing differently, but this is how Dominion has always handled these types of cards (i.e. Artificer). It's flawed, but I'm just going with the official print. Maybe they will fix this one day.

General(v0.1) - I am also very excited about this one. Can't wait to try it!

And would you look at that... three terminal Actions in a row! I didn't think I had it in me!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 02:43:29 pm by Kudasai »
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2018, 03:00:13 am »
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I cannot judge Smelter because I am not good with cards like Develop and Dismantle but it looks decent.

I like Trade Ship but like all build-up cards you gotta be very careful about the power level. Take Miser, it has to be weak because it would otherwise become too good in too many games.
So what's the potential problem of Trade Ship? If there are decent trashers around you can gain 4 Estates and now have a Province gainer in your deck. Add a village and another Trade Ship and you make as much as any decent engine, 2 Provinces per turn.
I am not claiming that it is broken but any direct, i.e. non-Remodel, Province gainer potentially is which is why I would test it without the 2 tokens for a Victory card.

General is simple and brilliant. I have no idea about how balanced this is but I just love it on first sight.

Trade Ship(v0.1) - Trade Ship can only gain cards costing exactly the amount on your Trade Ship mat. So if you do have 2 tokens and gain an Estate, it bumps it up to 4 tokens no longer allowing Estates to be gained. Same applies for Duchies and Provinces; you can only gain 1 per game. The wording on this alludes to the card playing differently, but this is how Dominion has always handled these types of cards (i.e. Artificer). It's flawed, but I'm just going with the official print. Maybe they will fix this one day.

General(v0.1) - I am also very excited about this one. Can't wait to try it!

And would you look at that... three terminal Actions in a row! I didn't think I had it in me!
Sorry man, I read over Trade Ship too quickly. The card is of course totally fine. It takes some time to bump this up to something better than Workshop and after you have gained enough $5s you'll probably try do play such that the last three players of Trade Ship are something like: gain a Duchy, play it for another token, gain a Province.
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Holunder9

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2018, 11:15:02 am »
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Seawall is interesting. It is to Junk Dealer as Hireling is to Laboratory until you decide to stop to use it. I fear though that it is a bit worse than Junk Dealer. Unless there are handsize attack you might have to stop relatively early with thinning lest this destroys a good hand. Obviously it is brilliant with junkers as you can then use it relatively long.

I really like it, one of the best Hireling variants / permanent Durations I have seen.
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Kudasai

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Re: Kudasai's Random Dominion Cards
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2018, 01:57:43 pm »
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Seawall is interesting. It is to Junk Dealer as Hireling is to Laboratory until you decide to stop to use it. I fear though that it is a bit worse than Junk Dealer. Unless there are handsize attack you might have to stop relatively early with thinning lest this destroys a good hand. Obviously it is brilliant with junkers as you can then use it relatively long.

I really like it, one of the best Hireling variants / permanent Durations I have seen.

Yeah, I really like this one conceptually and thematically, but there are still some big, looming questions about how it will play. Junk Dealer and Donate were the main inspirations behind Sea Wall, but hopefully it plays differently enough to justify a new card. I think it's better than Junk Dealer early on, but the risk of playing it into mid-game becomes exponentially worse than Junk Dealer. Donate is better early game, but Sea Wall can take your trashing a little further into the game to deal with junk attacks and such.

I hadn't thought of how hand size attacks interact with this. Very cool catch!

[Edit] I'm also on the fence about the on buy clause. I was thinking of a way to reward player 2 advantage, but this might scale out of control with 3 or more players. 1st player could then buy a 2nd Sea Wall for very cheap, but the question then becomes would you ever want a 2nd one at any price. I guess the risk of having 2 versus 1 is not much greater.

The cost reduction may also mess with opening hands in an unforeseen way.

Any thoughts on this are greatly appreciated!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:12:27 pm by Kudasai »
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