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[Swowl]

So I am catching up now, but just because it somehow seems to be a topic - I don't really get how Mass Claim in a closed set up like this could be beneficial for us. I mean... Skum can just like make up.... whatever they want right? It's not like they are going to "claim VT" or something.

It also then makes them choosing a NK like shooting power role fish in a barrel.

I think Space is towny. Driving the game well at this point. 

I think Awaclus' theory on random claim is bad, but not necessarily skummy (mainly because I  don't see how skum in this game would ever think they have a chance at pushing a claim through).

Not really a super lot more to comment on at this point. Probably due to the holiday weekend in the states.

[Awaclus]

That's the question you still haven't answered.

What information do you think I have that makes it most beneficial for me to have a 50/50 random chance?

[Awaclus]

So I am catching up now, but just because it somehow seems to be a topic - I don't really get how Mass Claim in a closed set up like this could be beneficial for us. I mean... Skum can just like make up.... whatever they want right? It's not like they are going to "claim VT" or something.

No, they can't claim whatever they want. They have to claim something that will be indistinguishable from their actual role as far as town can tell, which can get quite tricky especially because their actual role can suddenly change to something unpredictable.

[Eevee]

The more I think about this, the more I feel like it might be really fun. I'm in for Awaclus's plan.

I think I need you to show your working on that one. Maybe start by explaining what your understanding of Awaclus's plan is, then say why it's not a terrible idea...

An early massclaim would make for a different kind of day 1, certainly create a lot of action. Very tough to say what the odds of it helping/hurting us are, but you could easily see it just auto-losing the game for us.. so probably not such a fun idea after all.

Certainly would make more sense in some other game than this. The statistic about the number of scum is a hopeful one indeed!

[SpaceAnemone]

No, they can't claim whatever they want. They have to claim something that will be indistinguishable from their actual role as far as town can tell, which can get quite tricky especially because their actual role can suddenly change to something unpredictable.

You make it sound like a scum player can expect to wake up with a totally unexpected role at the start of the day! That's not it at all. The way I understand it, their roles only change if they perform the NK. Now, given that massclaim means that scums know exactly what all the townie roles are (except if we lie, which I don't think is something you're suggesting), they would just need to pick one of their group to wake up with a known role they can plan in advance.

I realise I'm getting perilously close to offering advice to the scumteam, but I feel we're still in pretty obvious territory here. And advice for town: until we have useful PR-derived game information that we can all share and act upon, I think going into any significant detail about our roles isn't a good idea. Of course, I have no idea what other roles are out there, so maybe some of you do have reasons to want to share.. I'm not stopping you, but I'm not going to make my own role easy or convenient for scum to take.

[Swowl]

So I am catching up now, but just because it somehow seems to be a topic - I don't really get how Mass Claim in a closed set up like this could be beneficial for us. I mean... Skum can just like make up.... whatever they want right? It's not like they are going to "claim VT" or something.

No, they can't claim whatever they want. They have to claim something that will be indistinguishable from their actual role as far as town can tell, which can get quite tricky especially because their actual role can suddenly change to something unpredictable.

right which kind of brings me to my second point which is - to do a mass claim successfully in this set up wouldn't we need to agree to mass claim like... every day? Or at least every day that follows a NK?

[Swowl]

So I am catching up now, but just because it somehow seems to be a topic - I don't really get how Mass Claim in a closed set up like this could be beneficial for us. I mean... Skum can just like make up.... whatever they want right? It's not like they are going to "claim VT" or something.

No, they can't claim whatever they want. They have to claim something that will be indistinguishable from their actual role as far as town can tell, which can get quite tricky especially because their actual role can suddenly change to something unpredictable.

which, I believe is ridiculous.

right which kind of brings me to my second point which is - to do a mass claim successfully in this set up wouldn't we need to agree to mass claim like... every day? Or at least every day that follows a NK?

[EFHW]

Why the vote on Awaclus, EFHW?

Cluttering the thread.  IDPTG is equally guilty, but Awaclus knows better.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad seems towny. His contemplation reads genuine to me.

Also, I'm back!

Welcome back. I have a town read on you since you find me towny

[Hydrad]

Awaclus seems normal. But that goes for both town and scum.

[gkrieg13]

I don’t support a mass claim.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

That's the question you still haven't answered.

What information do you think I have that makes it most beneficial for me to have a 50/50 random chance?

You asking what information I think you have does not tell me how I know that you're not scum.

Although enough people have stated they're against claiming that I'm pretty done with that conversation.

[faust]

Vote Count 1.2

Robz888 (2): Robz888, gkrieg13
Eevee (2): SpaceAnemone, LaLight
gkrieg13 (1): Hydrad
Awaclus (2): Jimmmmm, EFHW
mcmcsalot (1): iguanaiguana
LaLight (1): Eevee
Hydrad (2): IDontPlayThisGame, mcmcsalot

Not Voting (3): Awaclus, DatSwan, Galzria

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 ends May 31, 2018, 06:00:00 am

[LaLight]

I am against mass claiming for now. Scum will know who to kill to get a cool role.

I lean scum on EFHW for voting for Awaclus, I don't think he's scum. And whether he's cluttering the thread or not, if he's town we shouldn't vote him. Also, @SA, how exactly do we know 31% of people are scums? Maybe here's only one scum and the setup is still balanced? Looks like a scumslip to me

[Hydrad]

Setup Info

This game has exactly 2 factions, mafia and town. The mafia consists of 4 players.

[Awaclus]

No, they can't claim whatever they want. They have to claim something that will be indistinguishable from their actual role as far as town can tell, which can get quite tricky especially because their actual role can suddenly change to something unpredictable.

You make it sound like a scum player can expect to wake up with a totally unexpected role at the start of the day! That's not it at all. The way I understand it, their roles only change if they perform the NK. Now, given that massclaim means that scums know exactly what all the townie roles are (except if we lie, which I don't think is something you're suggesting), they would just need to pick one of their group to wake up with a known role they can plan in advance.

That's assuming scum gets to claim last, which might not be the case, and they can't just pick one of their group because they don't have daytalk so they can't coordinate that. And I'm not suggesting that town shouldn't lie under any circumstances, people have fakeclaimed as town before and it has worked out.

right which kind of brings me to my second point which is - to do a mass claim successfully in this set up wouldn't we need to agree to mass claim like... every day? Or at least every day that follows a NK?

No, why? If we redo the massclaim after a NK, scum will just claim the same roles again because claiming a different role would be outing yourself as scum.

[Awaclus]

You asking what information I think you have does not tell me how I know that you're not scum.

It's not supposed to do that, it's supposed to demonstrate to everyone else that your argument is wrong and ridiculous.

[LaLight]

god why is it like every time I read the setup it lacks some info that is added later so I always don't know something about it

[Eevee]

SA feels more assertive and leader-y than I remember (it's appreciated!). While someone being "different" is always cause for some alertness, this feels towny to me, because it's useful and generally high quality posting.

The Awaclus vote doesn't really make sense to me. Is it because you think Awaclus is scum and cluttering the thread to distract us, or more of a emotional or policy vote? It sounds like the latter. I think scum often does these votes where they have a plausible explanation they can hide behind, even if it's not really related to alignment.

Fwiw, I thought Awaclus was scummier before he started "cluttering the thread". I'm not any sort of authority in reading Awaclus though, you guys have played more with him than I have.

[LaLight]

  I'm not any sort of authority in reading Awaclus though, you guys have played more with him than I have.

No one is actually.

[mcmcsalot]

For Massclaim:
Awaclus
Eevee for a hot sec


Against Massclaim:
IDP
Space
Mcmc
Datswan
Gkrieg
Lalaight

End of conversation about massclaiming.

I get what you are saying awaclus where a 50/50 is better than anything potentially influenced by scum because scum has more info. But I think you are not taking into account the "more" info they have is just a few roles, we have our info and there are more town then scum so a mutually agreed upon thing is more beneficial to town then a random thing.

Also the whole proposed claim by awaclus is null because his style creates a frustratingly awful meta to read.


Eevee did you really think through the claim and think it was good or just fun?

[Eevee]

Just fun.

[Awaclus]

I get what you are saying awaclus where a 50/50 is better than anything potentially influenced by scum because scum has more info. But I think you are not taking into account the "more" info they have is just a few roles, we have our info and there are more town then scum so a mutually agreed upon thing is more beneficial to town then a random thing.

Each townie has so little info that it's practically just a 50/50 anyway, and scum's influence makes it worse. A mutually agreed upon thing can't possibly be better than a random thing.

[Eevee]

I get what you are saying awaclus where a 50/50 is better than anything potentially influenced by scum because scum has more info. But I think you are not taking into account the "more" info they have is just a few roles, we have our info and there are more town then scum so a mutually agreed upon thing is more beneficial to town then a random thing.

Each townie has so little info that it's practically just a 50/50 anyway, and scum's influence makes it worse. A mutually agreed upon thing can't possibly be better than a random thing.

But currently we've massclaimed a grand total of 0 times. Clearly at least our collective thinking is that it isn't a 50-50 shot, or we'd be doing it day 1 at least sometimes.

Worth noting: This is essentially just a discussion of the timing of our mass claim. Surely we'd do it when we reach lylo the latest. Shouldn't the eqution be the benefits of doing it now vs the benefits of doing it later?

[Awaclus]

But currently we've massclaimed a grand total of 0 times. Clearly at least our collective thinking is that it isn't a 50-50 shot, or we'd be doing it day 1 at least sometimes.

Yeah, but that's based on playing WIFOM against the mod, which I think is a bad idea.