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Author Topic: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?  (Read 1282 times)

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MattLee

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Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« on: May 17, 2018, 12:11:31 am »
+1

I'm buying my brother Dominion for his birthday. I can buy him the 2nd edition or for about the same price I can buy him the 1st edition and give him the update pack (I have an extra one i'll never use). So the decision is kind of whether or not to give him the old cards for free. The extra variety would be nice but are they so bad that it would be better to not give them to a new player at all?
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dz

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2018, 12:28:59 am »
+1

Well if you're gonna be spending irl money anyway, you might as well just buy 2E for him. He's not gonna be missing much if he can't play with 6 cards that aren't even that stellar.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2018, 01:06:28 am »
+3

I'm buying my brother Dominion for his birthday. I can buy him the 2nd edition or for about the same price I can buy him the 1st edition and give him the update pack (I have an extra one i'll never use). So the decision is kind of whether or not to give him the old cards for free. The extra variety would be nice but are they so bad that it would be better to not give them to a new player at all?

It might be worth it for the 2nd edition rules and maybe a few of the cards, like Moneylender and Throne Room, that were changed slightly.
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teamlyle

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2018, 01:22:39 am »
+3

The wording is so much clearer in 2nd edition, much more beginner friendly. Also, it might not matter if new players play with things like Woodcutter, but it might take them a while to realize that Thief sucks if they start playing with it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2018, 01:25:23 am »
+11

I'm buying my brother Dominion for his birthday. I can buy him the 2nd edition or for about the same price I can buy him the 1st edition and give him the update pack (I have an extra one i'll never use). So the decision is kind of whether or not to give him the old cards for free. The extra variety would be nice but are they so bad that it would be better to not give them to a new player at all?
I recommend 2E!

Note that you also get more readable cards (bigger font, better layout, better wordings), and better versions of the base cards, e.g. instead of



you get


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crj

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2018, 10:04:53 am »
+5

I'd like to sound a controversial note of dissent and say I find the second edition Base and Intrigue problematic precisely because they are worse for new players in a few respects.

The new art on the base treasures/victories is good, as is the gender-neutrality. However, it feels to me as though beginners need simple, elemental cards rather than deep or strong ones. Woodcutter, for example, is an ideal card for beginners even if it then rapidly falls out of favour. Similarly, I remember having great fun with Thief when I started out; Bandit may be less wordy, but it's much more convoluted in practice. and if you don't already know that stealing Copper is bad, well, it's good to learn that rather than have the short-cut of a "fixed" card handed you on a plate.

Similarly, I'm uncomfortable with some of the "simplified" wording. "Trash a Copper from your hand for +$3." is only clearer than "Trash a Copper card from your hand. If you do, +$3." if that specialised use of "for" is spelled out somewhere and, so far as I can tell, it isn't.
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weesh

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2018, 11:25:15 am »
0

is it just my imagination, or do the card borders in the update back look visually different from the cards in the base set?
they stick out to me for some reason, and I'd rather have just the 2nd edition if I could have a do-over.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 11:44:45 am »
+4

Woodcutter, for example, is an ideal card for beginners even if it then rapidly falls out of favour. Similarly, I remember having great fun with Thief when I started out; Bandit may be less wordy, but it's much more convoluted in practice. and if you don't already know that stealing Copper is bad, well, it's good to learn that rather than have the short-cut of a "fixed" card handed you on a plate.

You can make an argument that the base set benefited from having a sixth vanilla card like Woodcutter. I don't agree, but it's a matter of opinion. My opinion is that the seven new cards are all sufficiently simple, and that having more interesting cards is important for new players as well. Bruno Faidutti (another game designer whose games I enjoy) complained back in 2010 that Dominion was too simple. That the cards were not interesting enough, and felt like just shuffling numbers around between Actions, Buys, Coins, etc. And as a tangent, I think Temporum's base set suffers a bit from over-simplicity as well. But again, this is all a matter of taste.

The argument that Thief is important for teaching players a lesson about the game is pure, unadulterated nonsense. Imagine that Dominion had first been published with Bandit instead of Thief. Would you honestly be complaining that some piece of the game was missing? No, of course not.

Now maybe that's a bad argument I just made. Of course you can't miss something that was never there, but that doesn't mean having Thief instead of Bandit wouldn't have improved the game. Well I put it to you that the game does a fine job of teaching you "Coppers are usually bad" without needing a terribly weak card to do it. Moneylender teaches it. Chapel teaches it. Buying Coppers teaches it. Thief isn't special in this regard. And why have a terrible card solely for the purpose of teaching a redundant lesson.

Similarly, I'm uncomfortable with some of the "simplified" wording. "Trash a Copper from your hand for +$3." is only clearer than "Trash a Copper card from your hand. If you do, +$3." if that specialised use of "for" is spelled out somewhere and, so far as I can tell, it isn't.

"If you do" isn't spelled out in the rules anywhere either. Both "if you do" and "for" are spelled out in English, and I have a hard time believing that "for" is causing much confusion.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2018, 12:03:21 pm »
+2

Well I put it to you that the game does a fine job of teaching you "Coppers are usually bad" without needing a terribly weak card to do it. Moneylender teaches it. Chapel teaches it. Buying Coppers teaches it. Thief isn't special in this regard. And why have a terrible card solely for the purpose of teaching a redundant lesson.

To this particular piece, I feel like you're responding to the opposite of what CRJ was saying. The complaint was that second edition is TOO good at teaching that Coppers are bad, by spelling out right on the attack that it won't trash Coppers. If I read you right, you're response is pointing out that second edition does a good job of teaching it. CRJ was saying he liked how first edition did NOT teach it.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 12:16:56 pm »
+3

To this particular piece, I feel like you're responding to the opposite of what CRJ was saying. The complaint was that second edition is TOO good at teaching that Coppers are bad, by spelling out right on the attack that it won't trash Coppers. If I read you right, you're response is pointing out that second edition does a good job of teaching it. CRJ was saying he liked how first edition did NOT teach it.

Ah, I see. Well I guess crj and I will just have to agree to disagree on that. I don't feel the base game would be better if it had, for example, a weak card that gained an Estate when you played it. Man, this card gives you a point each time you play it! Awesome! Eventually you'd learn that it's terrible, but I assume you'd think "wow the designer sure messed up" rather than "oh I see, it's here to teach me a valuable lesson".

That's not a perfect analogue to the Thief situation, but man. I think it's totally fine if the game hints that Coppers are bad. Anybody who thinks hard enough about Moneylender is going to realize that it's a terminal Silver that removes a Copper from your deck. Why would I even buy this over Silver if Coppers are good? Admittedly it does trick people who don't think hard enough about it. "+$3! It's like a cheap Gold, but I'm sacrificing a Copper." Certainly that's how I viewed it when I first played Dominion.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 12:18:26 pm by LastFootnote »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 12:20:54 pm »
0

That's not a perfect analogue to the Thief situation, but man. I think it's totally fine if the game hints that Coppers are bad. Anybody who thinks hard enough about Moneylender is going to realize that it's a terminal Silver that removes a Copper from your deck. Why would I even buy this over Silver if Coppers are good?

That's an interesting thing I hadn't thought of. Indeed I haven't generally heard new players think of Moneylender as a worse-Silver because you lose a Copper. And yet... new players DO often buy a Copper with an extra buy! (As well as force opponents to discard Copper with Spy, etc).

It's almost like the opposite of the Endowment effect... players want to buy more Coppers, yes they aren't concerned about losing a Copper to Moneylender.

If I had to guess, I would say that new players don't think of the "math" of losing a Copper from your hand, and so they think of Moneylender as more like a Gold than a Silver, because it gives +.
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crj

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 12:31:03 pm »
0

Gosh. I'm pretty astonished to see the designer of, say, Mascarade describing base Dominion as too simple. Besides, I'm definitely in the camp of playing games which are only as complicated as they need to be, rather than games which are only as simple as they need to be. I'll play Istanbul rather than Agricola, for example or, closer to home, Kingdom Builder rather than Terra Mystica. I'll even play Trans America rather than Ticket to Ride. I like deep and subtle gameplay, but that's no reason for the rules not to fit on the back of a postage stamp.

Meanwhile, often at a games event I'll be mustering up a group to play Dominion. We'll be discussing which expansions to play, then someone who's played never before, perhaps once or twice, will join us. Immediately, I will scale back which cards we use. Many of the cards in recent sets are way too daunting for beginners.


For reference I know someone - and they're a serious gamer who's been an industry professional for decades - who adored base Dominion, then felt Intrigue drifted away from the spirit of the game as something where the play of the cards was near-automatic, and the challenge was in choosing what cards to get for your deck. They hated the on-play decisions.

I can see where they're coming from. Conditionals and decision points are the main sources of complexity in a game like Dominion. Life is simpler when you can just read down the card and do everything.

All the new cards in Second Edition Base have conditions or decisions, whereas Spy was the only decision-heavy card to be removed.

To be clear: I do like the new cards. They just don't feel right for new players, or for Base.
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crj

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 12:37:28 pm »
+1

I haven't generally heard new players think of Moneylender as a worse-Silver because you lose a Copper.
Generally, they seem to think "ooh, it's a cheaper Gold, but you have to trash a Copper". Then they realise trashing a Copper is good. Then they notice Moneylender is only really a Silver. Then they notice that it being a terminal action is an issue. Then they start wondering what they're going to do once the Copper is gone.

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kieranmillar

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 12:42:42 pm »
+1

I always assumed the reason Bandit didn't trash coppers wasn't to teach that coppers are bad, but because those 4 player newbie Thief games where someone gets totally bankrupted are exceptionally unfun for that player.

Then again I also assumed that the reason Encampment got set aside was so you couldn't regain or rebuy it before your opponents got the chance so I usually get this sort of thing wrong.
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crj

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2018, 12:50:22 pm »
0

I always assumed the reason Bandit didn't trash coppers wasn't to teach that coppers are bad, but because those 4 player newbie Thief games where someone gets totally bankrupted are exceptionally unfun for that player.
Have you ever actually experienced such a game? Given Thief can only affect your deck, never your hand, it'd be tough for it to empty you out entirely. I guess if there was also Militia, no Moat, no actions that give coin and you didn't fight fire with fire by buying a Thief yourself it would be just about possible to contrive a completely miserable game, but...

Normally, if the other players want to do the job of a Chapel for me without eliminating my action or my spending power for my next turn, that's fine!
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pacatak

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2018, 12:52:34 pm »
+1

i would just give him the 2nd edition. it's cleaner.  he won't have to store a big box and a small box.  Really IMHO the only reason to get the 1st edition is if you are a completest.  If he gets to the point where he loves it enough to be a completest, he can go for all of them.  But probably after he's bought a ton of other expansions
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Polk5440

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2018, 12:54:21 pm »
+5

Similarly, I'm uncomfortable with some of the "simplified" wording. "Trash a Copper from your hand for +$3." is only clearer than "Trash a Copper card from your hand. If you do, +$3." if that specialised use of "for" is spelled out somewhere and, so far as I can tell, it isn't.

"If you do" isn't spelled out in the rules anywhere either. Both "if you do" and "for" are spelled out in English, and I have a hard time believing that "for" is causing much confusion.

That's pretty harsh. I prefer the more explicit older wording, too. "For" as it's used here is absolutely more informal. It's not immediately clear that +$3 is something you get as a consequence of deciding to trash a Copper and not a price you pay in order to trash a Copper.

Edit: I get it's not ambiguous, though, because "+" is defined in the instructions. It just takes more parsing for me than the old wording did to get the interpretation right. Without the "+" the instruction would be ambiguous.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 12:57:47 pm by Polk5440 »
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kieranmillar

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2018, 01:39:35 pm »
+2

I always assumed the reason Bandit didn't trash coppers wasn't to teach that coppers are bad, but because those 4 player newbie Thief games where someone gets totally bankrupted are exceptionally unfun for that player.
Have you ever actually experienced such a game?
Yes. I have seen new players get reduced to being forced to buy coppers in futility because they literally can't do anything else in more than just one game thanks to Thief. Usually because they don't see it coming until it's too late. These were IRL games. Bear in mind that in 4 player you frequently get hit multiple times between your turns.

Obviously wouldn't happen to an experienced player, I know that Thief is a bad card and having opponents trash your coppers is good for you. But this sort of thing is a real turn-off. Thief was just below Sabatouer for card most likely to give people a terrible game, in my experience (Witch and Torturer followed shortly behind, I soon learnt what sort of cards to not bring to the table against players that didnt have experience with deckbuilder games).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2018, 01:52:38 pm »
+1

Similarly, I'm uncomfortable with some of the "simplified" wording. "Trash a Copper from your hand for +$3." is only clearer than "Trash a Copper card from your hand. If you do, +$3." if that specialised use of "for" is spelled out somewhere and, so far as I can tell, it isn't.

"If you do" isn't spelled out in the rules anywhere either. Both "if you do" and "for" are spelled out in English, and I have a hard time believing that "for" is causing much confusion.

That's pretty harsh. I prefer the more explicit older wording, too. "For" as it's used here is absolutely more informal. It's not immediately clear that +$3 is something you get as a consequence of deciding to trash a Copper and not a price you pay in order to trash a Copper.

Edit: I get it's not ambiguous, though, because "+" is defined in the instructions. It just takes more parsing for me than the old wording did to get the interpretation right. Without the "+" the instruction would be ambiguous.

I think if Moneylender didn't have "you may", you'd have a good point. In general—though there may be exceptions!—similar abilities that aren't optional still have "if you do/did". Trading Post, for example. But how are you possibly rationalizing the interpretation that you can choose not to trash a Copper with Moneylender and still get +$3? "You may trash a Copper for +$3." If you didn't trash a Copper, you must have opted out of this ability! Hence, no +$3. It seems really cut and dried to me.

EDIT: Oh, OK. I misunderstood you. You're saying people could be misinterpreting "+$3" as "$3". Well, that's valid and I don't think we realized that possible misinterpretation when Donald X. was deciding this stuff. Hopefully in practice people aren't confused very often. Sorry for misreading your post!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:57:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2018, 02:10:45 pm »
+2

EDIT: Oh, OK. I misunderstood you. You're saying people could be misinterpreting "+$3" as "$3". Well, that's valid and I don't think we realized that possible misinterpretation when Donald X. was deciding this stuff. Hopefully in practice people aren't confused very often. Sorry for misreading your post!

Right, imagine an ability that allows you to buy a card, like Black Market, and also gives you money if you do.

Old wording:

You may buy a card. If you did, +.

New wording:

You may buy a card for +.

Of course, I would imagine that if such a card existed, Donald would have used the old wording to avoid the confusion; but the new wording sure makes it sound like you can either buy a card for the cost of , or that you can buy a card for more than the normal price.
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JW

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2018, 02:22:00 pm »
+2

I love the 2e Base Set. That said, Sentry is a well-designed card, but when I'm playing with beginners I'd use Junk Dealer instead. Sentry can be a lot of decisions for a new player to consider, and being nonterminal exacerbates the issue.

It would be better if Donald could turn back time and put Junk Dealer in Base and Sentry in Dark Ages (where it would have a nice combo with Mystic, similar to the combo with Vassal in Base).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2018, 02:34:20 pm »
0

I love the 2e Base Set. That said, Sentry is a well-designed card, but when I'm playing with beginners I'd use Junk Dealer instead. Sentry can be a lot of decisions for a new player to consider, and being nonterminal exacerbates the issue.

It would be better if Donald could turn back time and put Junk Dealer in Base and Sentry in Dark Ages (where it would have a nice combo with Mystic, similar to the combo with Vassal in Base).

In retrospect, I do wish we'd tried Sentry with: "Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. You may trash one. You may discard one. Put the rest back in any order." Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2018, 02:45:38 pm »
+1

I love the 2e Base Set. That said, Sentry is a well-designed card, but when I'm playing with beginners I'd use Junk Dealer instead. Sentry can be a lot of decisions for a new player to consider, and being nonterminal exacerbates the issue.

It would be better if Donald could turn back time and put Junk Dealer in Base and Sentry in Dark Ages (where it would have a nice combo with Mystic, similar to the combo with Vassal in Base).

In retrospect, I do wish we'd tried Sentry with: "Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. You may trash one. You may discard one. Put the rest back in any order." Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

That's a lot of power to lose for the sake of simplicity. Maybe for $4?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2018, 02:58:18 pm »
0

In retrospect, I do wish we'd tried Sentry with: "Reveal the top 2 cards of your deck. You may trash one. You may discard one. Put the rest back in any order." Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

That's a lot of power to lose for the sake of simplicity. Maybe for $4?

Is it really so much power? I think being able to trash 2 cards is problematically powerful for a cantrip $5, so removing that seems great to me. It removes the games where one player gets super-lucky with their early Sentry and just cruises to victory. And then you have the late game where you'd like to discard both cards. But unless they're both Provinces, sometimes you can just discard one and trash the other. You might not have drawn it again before the game ended anyway. Maybe that is too much weaker, though. I don't know, I think it could afford to be weaker and still sit comfortably at $5. A $4 cantrip that trashes from your deck sounds nuts to me.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, the idea isn't just simplicity. It's that Sentry is sometimes crazy strong.
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Re: Would you give a new player 1st edition cards?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2018, 03:03:24 pm »
0

LFN's suggested Sentry would be a much more fun card.
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