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Author Topic: Inheritance interaction  (Read 3332 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2018, 04:37:08 pm »
+2

I think if Inheritance had never worked on Durations and Reserve cards - and had been in Empires - no-one would have said, this sucks, I need to be able to turn Estates into Durations.
I mean, true, but if you hadn't created Dominion, probably noone would have said, this sucks, I need a balanced, fun game that opens up a whole new genre of games. Still, in the end I imagine publishing Dominion has increased the overall fun.
I contrasted Inheritance-that-doesn't-work-on-Durations with Inheritance. You contrast Dominion with nothing.
What I put in for these placeholders doesn't really matter. The point is that the argument is not logically sound.
What you are saying just seems like nonsense to me. Of course what you compare matters. Something awesome and something 99% awesome are almost the same. Something awesome and nothing at all are much different.
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2018, 04:38:11 pm »
+2

I think if Inheritance had never worked on Durations and Reserve cards - and had been in Empires - no-one would have said, this sucks, I need to be able to turn Estates into Durations.

I think you underestimate our ability to complain about things.
This experiment has also been played out. There are tons of things that didn't happen that you guys never complain about.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2018, 04:51:59 pm »
0

I think if Inheritance had never worked on Durations and Reserve cards - and had been in Empires - no-one would have said, this sucks, I need to be able to turn Estates into Durations.

I think you underestimate our ability to complain about things.
This experiment has also been played out. There are tons of things that didn't happen that you guys never complain about.

Time to re-read the secret histories.
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Robz888

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2018, 05:14:18 pm »
+1

This was quite a thread.
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Jeebus

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2018, 01:10:33 pm »
0

I just want to clarify that there are actually 8 TR variants: Throne Room, King’s Court, Counterfeit, Procession, Disciple, Royal Carriage, Crown and Ghost. (Counterfeit can be played by Storyteller and play Crown, so is relevant.)

Of course Donald made the point that the TR variants are not really the problem.

Trivialknot actually deserves a lot of credit for this post, where he identified that the problem is with any card being moved after having been played. And this is also the first scenario presented which is impossible to resolve IRL, because the player him/herself can't know the answer to what the card actually is. (In the other examples it was possible to keep track of the Estates in your hand.)

It seems like the only workable changes would be:

1) Actually change the three offending cards (Inheritance, BoM, Overlord).

2) Always use last-known-info as suggested by ChipperMDW. (Although I don't like the idea of reverting BoM to choose-before-play, because that created a lot problems compared to how cleanly it works now.) The problem is that it changes the Procession+BoM-as-Fortress explanation in the original Dark Ages rulebook, and probably other "known" interactions, which could be unexpected for many players online whenever it would change there.

3) Introducing a rule like I think Majiponi suggested, that whenever there is doubt about which copy of a card you're playing, you get to choose which. But what if you only have one copy among your cards, so that from a computer perspective there is no choice, but from the players' perspective how many copies you have is not open information (and a player might or might not have kept track)? Maybe that's why Donald said it wouldn't work.

sudgy

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2018, 01:53:48 pm »
0

2) Always use last-known-info as suggested by ChipperMDW. (Although I don't like the idea of reverting BoM to choose-before-play, because that created a lot problems compared to how cleanly it works now.) The problem is that it changes the Procession+BoM-as-Fortress explanation in the original Dark Ages rulebook, and probably other "known" interactions, which could be unexpected for many players online whenever it would change there.

What about (as someone suggested earlier) keeping it as the actual card for as long as possible, and only reverting to the originally-played card when it's impossible to track it?  This keeps all current interactions as-is, and the only time that this would pop up is when people try to engineer it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Jeebus

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2018, 02:17:47 pm »
0

What about (as someone suggested earlier) keeping it as the actual card for as long as possible, and only reverting to the originally-played card when it's impossible to track it?  This keeps all current interactions as-is, and the only time that this would pop up is when people try to engineer it.

I didn't catch that suggestion. ChipperMDW's idea was that you use the original card whenever the game loses track of it. But I guess you mean whenever the players can't actually know what the card's instructions are, which is different. Yes, I think that would solve this and keep everything else the same. Of course, as with the other solutions (2 and 3 above), it introduces a completely new and obscure rule, and Donald said that he would rather change Inheritance, BoM and Overlord.

I suspect that the right call is to change nothing. I appreciate Crj's point from an engineering perspective, and the programmer in me wants this to be fixed cleanly too, but it doesn't seem worth it. Online it works, and if it ever came up IRL, any decision would probably work. The players can assume that it was that card, or not. A judge in a tournament would just... explode, I guess. Hopefully and probably, Dominion won't introduce more cards in the future that make these scenarios more likely.

MatthewCA

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2018, 09:47:23 am »
0

Quote
Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (Your Estates gain the abilities and types of that card.)

Simple question, but I have not seen it asked yet, and I apologize if this does nothing to further the discussion, but once an Estate is no longer yours, it loses the abilities and types it had when you inherited it. For simplicity's sake, let's say you inherit Embargo, then Throne Room an Estate. The first time you play it, Throne Room looks at the Estate, the Estate trashes itself, and puts an Embargo token on a supply pile. The second time it gets played, Throne Room checks the estate (like it does for Band of Misfits or Overlord), the estate is no longer yours, therefore doesn't have the abilities and types it inherited (because it is no longer your Estate). Playing the Estate does nothing the second time does nothing because it's just a victory card at that point.

Am I talking crazy here or does this make sense?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 12:38:34 pm by MatthewCA »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2018, 10:33:46 am »
+1

Quote
Once per game: Set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (Your Estates gain the abilities and types of that card.)

Simple question, but I have not seen it asked yet, and I apologize if this does nothing to further the discussion, but once an Estate is no longer yours, it loses the abilities and types it had when you inherited it. For simplicity's sake, let's say you inherit Embargo, then Throne Room an Estate. The first time you play it, Throne Room looks at the Estate, the Estate trashes itself, and puts an Embargo token on a supply pile. The second time it gets played, Throne Room checks the estate (like it does for Band of Misfits or Overlord), the estate is no longer yours, therefore doesn't have the abilities and types it inherited (because it is no longer your Estate). Playing the Estate does nothing the second time Throne Room plays it because it's just a victory card at that point.

Am I talking crazy here or does this make sense?

If I read things correctly, it was confirmed in this thread that that is all correct. The Estate will still be "played", though it stays in the Trash, and nothing in the game cares whether it was "played" or not.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2018, 01:26:29 pm »
0

Smugglers may be worth mentioning here.

Your right hand opponent gains a BoM, then plays it BoM as Caravan; he gains nothing else on his turn. On your turn you play Smugglers. Do you gain BoM because that's what it was when your opponent gained it? Or do you track the specific BoM and gain a copy of what it is at the moment (Caravan)?

I ask because, in this thread, I asserted that you'd gain a BoM in that situation. I note that this wasn't actually confirmed, so, considering what's been said here, maybe I was wrong about that.

If I was wrong (i.e. you gain a Caravan), then Smugglers also needs to track all gained cards and know what they currently look like. That's useful as an example of something needing to know about a "lost" card for reasons other than playing it.

If I was correct (i.e. you gain a BoM), then Dominion is already using something like last-known information.
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Jeebus

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2018, 02:21:18 pm »
+1

Smugglers may be worth mentioning here.

Your right hand opponent gains a BoM, then plays it BoM as Caravan; he gains nothing else on his turn. On your turn you play Smugglers. Do you gain BoM because that's what it was when your opponent gained it? Or do you track the specific BoM and gain a copy of what it is at the moment (Caravan)?

I ask because, in this thread, I asserted that you'd gain a BoM in that situation. I note that this wasn't actually confirmed, so, considering what's been said here, maybe I was wrong about that.

If I was wrong (i.e. you gain a Caravan), then Smugglers also needs to track all gained cards and know what they currently look like. That's useful as an example of something needing to know about a "lost" card for reasons other than playing it.

If I was correct (i.e. you gain a BoM), then Dominion is already using something like last-known information.

Hmm, interesting. I'm re-reading that thread. Assuming you were correct (you gain a BoM), isn't it the case that if we go by the interpretation that I wrote (and you agreed on), then it's not using last-known information?

Namely this: Gain a copy of [a card that the player to your right gained on their last turn] costing up to $6.

So the only past information is the names of the cards that your opponent gained (i.e. the names when s/he gained them). That's not something to track, because it's not information connected to a card. It's just something that is taken from the past game state. It's like you said, Treasure Map and Ritual do the same. They don't look at specific cards, but just information from the past game state.

Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2018, 04:43:09 pm »
+6

Your right hand opponent gains a BoM, then plays it BoM as Caravan; he gains nothing else on his turn. On your turn you play Smugglers. Do you gain BoM because that's what it was when your opponent gained it? Or do you track the specific BoM and gain a copy of what it is at the moment (Caravan)?
You gain a Band of Misfits. Somehow.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2018, 05:20:08 pm »
+1

Hmm, interesting. I'm re-reading that thread. Assuming you were correct (you gain a BoM), isn't it the case that if we go by the interpretation that I wrote (and you agreed on), then it's not using last-known information?

Namely this: Gain a copy of [a card that the player to your right gained on their last turn] costing up to $6.

So the only past information is the names of the cards that your opponent gained (i.e. the names when s/he gained them). That's not something to track, because it's not information connected to a card. It's just something that is taken from the past game state. It's like you said, Treasure Map and Ritual do the same. They don't look at specific cards, but just information from the past game state.

Yeah, I think I see what you're saying. Although it's not so much about what information is remembered as it is about why something is trying to recall it. Smugglers (and Treasure Map and Ritual) are specifically looking for information about a past moment. The last-known information we were talking about earlier in this thread was not meant for things specifically looking for past info, but for things that were actually looking for present info but needed to settle for falling back on past info.

So I think that means Smugglers is not relevant to this thread after all. Never mind!
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markusin

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2018, 10:26:48 am »
0

--Play Band of Misfits as Mining Village, trash it
I see I see. There are of course several cards that trash themselves, and they are a way to have a card leave play.

To get the category as small as possible, my next guess is that it's just these three ways to make a card not be itself: Band of Misfits, Overlord, Inheritance. Can you mess up without those?

Band of Misfits and Overlord should be like Necromancer - play the card leaving it there, non-Duration. Inheritance should be e.g. "discard an Estate to..." (it's trickier than that because there's no terse way to say "you can do this any time you are allowed to play an action," although again it's too big of a change for errata, and if the card weren't published yet I wouldn't be trying to simulate it exactly).

Just to try to make sense of this rules discussion, in the scenario described by trivialknot with BoM and Mining Village, does the BoM actually get played as Lighthouse when played the third time by the first King's Court?
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2018, 02:43:44 pm »
0

Just to try to make sense of this rules discussion, in the scenario described by trivialknot with BoM and Mining Village, does the BoM actually get played as Lighthouse when played the third time by the first King's Court?
Yes. The Band of Misfits is a Lighthouse currently, and you're playing it.
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singletee

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2018, 03:12:32 pm »
0

Just to try to make sense of this rules discussion, in the scenario described by trivialknot with BoM and Mining Village, does the BoM actually get played as Lighthouse when played the third time by the first King's Court?
Yes. The Band of Misfits is a Lighthouse currently, and you're playing it.

Suppose there were another Band of Misfits in my discard. I drew and played one of them as Lighthouse twice via Herald into Throne as described, but now I don't know whether it's the same Band of Misfits as the one I originally played.

GendoIkari

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2018, 03:25:11 pm »
0

Just to try to make sense of this rules discussion, in the scenario described by trivialknot with BoM and Mining Village, does the BoM actually get played as Lighthouse when played the third time by the first King's Court?
Yes. The Band of Misfits is a Lighthouse currently, and you're playing it.

Suppose there were another Band of Misfits in my discard. I drew and played one of them as Lighthouse twice via Herald into Throne as described, but now I don't know whether it's the same Band of Misfits as the one I originally played.

This was mentioned in the OP and responded to by Donald at the start of the thread.
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singletee

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2018, 03:30:00 pm »
0

Just to try to make sense of this rules discussion, in the scenario described by trivialknot with BoM and Mining Village, does the BoM actually get played as Lighthouse when played the third time by the first King's Court?
Yes. The Band of Misfits is a Lighthouse currently, and you're playing it.

Suppose there were another Band of Misfits in my discard. I drew and played one of them as Lighthouse twice via Herald into Throne as described, but now I don't know whether it's the same Band of Misfits as the one I originally played.

This was mentioned in the OP and responded to by Donald at the start of the thread.

So the "solution" is that it's not currently possible to resolve the situation in the physical game? How disappointing.

I was there; I upvoted that post back then. But it certainly doesn't constitute anything remotely resembling a ruling. I don't begrudge Donald X. the decision not to rule on such an unlikely case, but that post really doesn't serve as a solution at all.

I suppose we could mark the cards? That ought to solve it if Masquerade isn't involved.

There are only 3 solutions really:
1. Mark the cards (emulating the abilities of a computer program),
2. If we don't know what the card is currently, it does nothing,
3. If we don't know what the card is currently, use information from some prior time.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 04:23:56 pm by singletee »
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Donald X.

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2018, 06:41:32 pm »
+2

My current thinking is:

How about losing track slighty harder as a solution?  If the current location of the card can't be determined without 'cheating', it retains the identity it had when last its location was known.
It is going to be hard for me to make the leap to "okay I am changing the rules; here is the rule almost no-one will know, that will never come up, but maybe, just maybe, will confuse someone reading the wiki or punchball's document."

If I could go back and do things better, the fix would be to not have this situation be possible, rather than to have more to the lose-track rule. Ideally lose-track itself would also not be possible; probably many of the abilities that move cards could have fairly similar forms without invoking that rule.
If we hadn't done the second editions yet, possibly I would reword Band of Misfits, Overlord, and Inheritance.

You can easily avoid the problem irl by not playing with those cards, or some sort of house rule for this ubiquitous scenario.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2018, 03:51:31 pm »
+1

Easy solution -- don't change anything. If something like this ever comes up IRL, just play it however makes sense to the group. If it comes up online, just let it work however it works. It's basically never going to happen anyway.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2018, 09:22:17 am »
0

Indeed. This is a scenario which involves, among other things, giving your opponent your Inherited Estates. Nobody actually does that in reality.
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crj

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Re: Inheritance interaction
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2018, 11:56:40 am »
0

Except for the edge case from Hell: all this madness is happening while the player is Possessed.
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