Dominion > Rules Questions
Inheritance interaction
majiponi:
--- Quote ---I've found an undefined behavior on dominion.games.
I played Throne Room to play a inherited Estate(Crown), to play Herald, to reveal and play University, gained Mandarin (topdecked that inherited Estate), played Herald (second time), drew the Estate, revealed and played Ambassador, returned the Estate, and played it (second time) AS THE CARD MY OPPONENT HAD INHERITED.
--- End quote ---
(This is the summary of this twitter post.)
I don't think I can play other player's card, but I am not sure.
And more, I've noticed another problem. If I have another Estate in my hand, we cannot tell which Estate I played (on dominion.games). Did I play the returned Estate? I mean, do I play Estate as Crown, or play Estate as "solid Estate" (so I fail to play it again)? (Maybe too complicated question...)
dz:
Playing a "solid" Estate obv. makes no sense, you can't play Victory cards unless they're a Action or Treasure.
If you lose track of a card (like that Mandarin/Ambassador craziness), all other effects still happen. So Estate SHOULD still have Crown's instructions.
GendoIkari:
Well we know for sure you can play a returned card (and it plays, but fails to move to the in-play area); based on things like Throne-Room + Madman. The question here is if the returned Estate can still be played... and I'm not sure; but here's a much simpler version of what I think is still the same basic question:
You have Estate inheriting Feast. You play Throne Room, choosing an Estate. You play the Estate once, which trashes it (so it's no longer yours). Can you still play the Estate a second time, to get a second Feast effect?
The logic of online sounds like it must be wrong, yet it is logical.... the Estate that you played was owned by your opponent, and thus it had the types and abilities of your opponent's inheritance. I also really want to know if this is correct.
dane-m:
--- Quote from: GendoIkari on May 11, 2018, 12:31:09 pm ---You have Estate inheriting Feast. You play Throne Room, choosing an Estate. You play the Estate once, which trashes it (so it's no longer yours). Can you still play the Estate a second time, to get a second Feast effect?
--- End quote ---
Well, we know that if you Throne Room a Band of Misfits as Feast, then the second play is of Band of Misfits as itself. So Throne Room obviously looks at the card a second time. That implies that in the case of an Estate inheriting Feast, Throne Room will find a plain Estate the second time it looks at the card...
--- Quote ---The logic of online sounds like it must be wrong, yet it is logical.... the Estate that you played was owned by your opponent, and thus it had the types and abilities of your opponent's inheritance. I also really want to know if this is correct.
--- End quote ---
...which implies that this weird behaviour is also correct, but it does require Throne Room to be doing something that might not always be possible, namely knowing the location of a particular card no matter where it goes. I suspect it would be possible to come up with a more complicated example in which the TRed Estate could be returned to the deck, the deck shuffled, cards drawn from the deck, and then one or two Estates returned to the Estate pile (and from there to an opponent) before TR tries playing the Estate a second time. How can TR know where the particular Estate now is? Clearly it can't.
Edit: In fact even in the original example TR shouldn't know where the Estate is. The player could have had other Estates in hand, so there's no way for TR to know where the Estate it played the first time now is when it comes to play it the second time.
Donald X.:
--- Quote from: majiponi on May 11, 2018, 11:36:26 am ---
--- Quote ---I've found an undefined behavior on dominion.games.
I played Throne Room to play a inherited Estate(Crown), to play Herald, to reveal and play University, gained Mandarin (topdecked that inherited Estate), played Herald (second time), drew the Estate, revealed and played Ambassador, returned the Estate, and played it (second time) AS THE CARD MY OPPONENT HAD INHERITED.
--- End quote ---
(This is the summary of this twitter post.)
I don't think I can play other player's card, but I am not sure.
And more, I've noticed another problem. If I have another Estate in my hand, we cannot tell which Estate I played (on dominion.games). Did I play the returned Estate? I mean, do I play Estate as Crown, or play Estate as "solid Estate" (so I fail to play it again)? (Maybe too complicated question...)
--- End quote ---
The behavior is correct, and you are correct about the other problem.
There are two classes of solutions: changing the lose-track rules to lose track harder, and changing Inheritance.
The lose-track change would change Throne / Feast in the original main set; I'm not doing it. People don't know the lose track rule, and the main set rulebook said Throne / Feast worked. For new games this would be a thing to consider; Dominion does not want to mess with that.
The only possible (heavy errata) fix I see for Inheritance is the "during your turn" that Bridge etc. use - all copies everywhere change. Inheritance breaks an important rule, that all copies of a card should be identical, and this convoluted combo exploits that. Inheritance originally said "during your turn"; the problem is that you get super-weird stuff immediately, with trivial rather than convoluted combos. For example I inherit Caravan Guard and play an attack; you respond with Estate because it's Caravan Guard. But on your turn the Estate is in play and has no abilities, or is some other card that you inherited. The rules handle it, but it's super-confusing.
Feel free to simply not play with Inheritance. That actually solves the problem.
In my defense, Inheritance was a lot of fun. Today I would have you do the effect without Estate changing, e.g. you can discard Estate to play the set-aside card, leaving it there, and it's limited to non-durations (like Necromancer). That gives you "my Estates do this thing" but cuts out things like "they are Actions for Herald." And the Estates are always just Estates so so much for that. It's a poor fit for Adventures, since there are lots of Durations and also Reserve cards, which are useless here. It could have been in Empires though. Anyway we wouldn't use errata to effectively make Inheritance some other related thing.
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