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Author Topic: Dominion: Dynasties  (Read 2418 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2018, 12:22:21 pm »
0

It's probably too late to say, but I feel that it might be interesting if being a Kin increased the cost of a card that it affected; meaning, with sort of the older model, if you were giving trashing to a Shanty Town, it would also cost +$1.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2018, 10:03:29 am »
+1

It's probably too late to say, but I feel that it might be interesting if being a Kin increased the cost of a card that it affected; meaning, with sort of the older model, if you were giving trashing to a Shanty Town, it would also cost +$1.
I've learned that the less a Kin does to change a card the better, so analysis paralysis is lessened. Mead Hall might be a bad design anyway.

But for now, a few ideas to start this off as a full expansion:


Quote
Armoursmith - Action, $4 cost.
+4 Cards
If your deck and discard pile empty while this is in play, trash this.
-
When you gain this, each other player looks at the top 2 cards of their deck, discards any number, and puts the rest back in any order.
Simple draw that can't be put in a full deck-draw engine so easily. Simplicity is the key here to make analysing how Kins affect this easier. As much as I'd love to not have the bottom bit, it feels like a $4.5 cost card so the gift to other players knocks this down to $4 whilst softens the early deck cycling advantage this gives.


Quote
Potter - Action, $4 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4. You may reveal an Action from your hand with the same cost as it, for +2VP.
More VP tokens to accompany Pillar. A Workshop that can get you ahead on points if you play things right.


Quote
Farrier - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Cards
+1 Action

Discard a Copper (or reveal you can't.)
Quote
Rider - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+1 Card per Farrier you have in play. Discard any number of cards. + $1 per card discarded per Rider you have in play.
Split pile to go with Travelling Merchant, and split piles fit well in the set anyway. Farrier is drawing cards for you somehow, either as a late Lab or as fuel for Rider's draw, and the Rider himself Vaults the draw away for payload. Besides other things.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2018, 08:39:01 am »
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These are all very interesting cards. I have a hard time judging Armoursmith and Rider but on the first glance they look sound.
Farrier could be too good for $3 if there is a run on the pile in many games so it might have to cost $4. But on the other hand opening double Farrier isn't that brilliant: some cycling, no boost to the economy and you could end up in a similar situation as somebody who mindlessly buys Saunas in the opening.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2019, 12:11:33 pm »
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Announcing an OP update to the Kins.


It made more practical sense to have the 2 counters that show other piles are Kins instead be sideways cards that go under the pile, like the bane marker.


Just a theme change for Vice, if everyone attends the tribal festival the Chief is in a jolly mood so he's happy to join you.


Mead Hall is rather different now, the trashing has gone and it plays other Kins in a more exciting way. It effectively becomes two Kins put together, or one doubled up, which can include Treasure and Night Kins for maximum usability. Most of the time this is powerful, so it's a one-shot. It's more unique, there's better interactivity and it will sometimes be bad.


A simplified Reassign. If it can get away without being a Night, that'll be better for the set I think, though the top could be too strong like this. And something that Capitalism helped with, wording the Recruit token instructions simply.


Pearl has no Buy on it now, unnecessary. Am I missing a trick with not having it be gained to the bottom of the deck?

Exile is out for being too oppressive, but look at the new ideas and you'll see what came of it.
Highland Village was similar to the former Mead Hall, not exactly bad but it could be more interactive. There's already Festival Grounds, so it's out.
Runner as it is doesn't really work as I'd like, but there's definitely a pure Kin support card to be made somehow.

New ideas:

Quote
Rivals - Action Attack Duration Kin, $4 cost.
Until your next turn, if another player starts Clean-up without having played a Kin other than Rivals on their turn, they draw 3 cards for their next hand instead of 5.
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards.
Trying to retain the 'this likes bad Kins' interaction from Exile. Making them block an Attack seems the best way to encourage getting them whilst being fun to play with. Having them reveal it from hand like Moat can sometimes fail despite great effort. So I went with making them play it, which can help make things a bit nastier in the best/worst cases. And it turns out rather like a reversed Telltale.


Quote
Secret Keeper - Action Kin, $5 cost.
+1 Action
If you have 1 or more Kins in play, +2 Cards. If 2 or more, + $2.
-
In games using this, when you gain a Kin, each other player gets +1VP.
And here's the negative VP Kins bit from Exile; conveniently VP tokens will be a feature of the set so I can better implement negative VP by permanent +VP to other players. No sneakily trashing them at the end. From there it made sense to have a top that gave very convincing reasons to invest in the Tribe anyway. This might not be enough even like this.

I feel this is now a set of convincing and diverse Kin cards. But I also see there are many designs possible. Possibly I've missed something good.
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herw

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2019, 01:16:38 pm »
0

[...]

Quote
Farrier - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Cards
+1 Action

Discard a Copper (or reveal you can't.)

I don't understand: a farrior is a laboratory but with cost of $3 instead of $5?
So i would buy two Farriors at the start and will win with Big Money?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 01:22:02 pm by herw »
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2019, 04:14:01 am »
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I don't understand: a farrior is a laboratory but with cost of $3 instead of $5?
So i would buy two Farriors at the start and will win with Big Money?
After the laboratory bit, you're forced to discard a Copper from your hand. So to start with it helps neither hand size nor money, only cycling. If you get to trash your Coppers, then it can become a lab. The only reason I can think of to start with 2 Farriers is if you really, really want to boost the Riders you buy later and make sure your opponents don't stop you.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 12:07:50 pm »
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A few more non-Kin cards, on OP already:


Mail Coach moves over from Revolution, as a Bridleway.


Engraver, a cantrip Treasure trasher with a Buy that gets VP for trashed Treasures in the manner of Priest.


Goose; a Peddler and a Fugitive, each $4.5 effects, put together as a choice with a slow self-gain effect for a $5 card. Not great for its cost until you can accumulate several copies.


A set of simple cards needs a simple Village. How do you make one of those interesting? This one shuffles the discard into deck just before your first gain of the turn. Good for greens, bad for early building. So because it's sometimes better sometimes worse than base set Village this costs $3, the 'interest' I was trying for.


I said I liked Throne from discard when I changed Taskmaster from Revolution. It's here now, simply discarding a card first with it.


And the crazy one last. Completely block cards from entering anyone's deck, and from going back to the pile, by putting a State on the pile. Should I let it block Provinces...?

More details on the OP. From these cards, there emerges a discard pile theme and a Buy phase theme.
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segura

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 02:25:13 pm »
+1

Engraver looks broken as it enables infinite loops (buy Copper, trash Copper for VPs). Doesn't seem to difficult to pull off something like playing 5 Engravers, trashing 5 Coppers, getting 15VPs and then buyign 5 Coppers to do the whole thing again next turn.

I like Ambush, it is a cool State idea.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 07:41:48 pm »
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Goose: I like this one. A cool Rats variant.
Thane: Throne Rooms are engine cards, so I don't think being able to look in your discard pile will end up being very useful. This idea doesn't really excite me overall; I feel that Ghost is a better implementation of this idea.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2019, 09:32:54 pm »
+3

Commodore, I'm of an entirely different opinion.

I've been a lurker on this forum for years, and I finally created an account just so I could praise how brilliant Thane is. It's amazing in its simplicity and subtle complexity. Sure, it's a weaker 5, but not all 5s get to be Wharf.

It's weak in the sense that throne rooms are best in big engines, and in big engines, you tend to not often have cards in your discard pile. So its strength comes out in slogs or decks where you don't draw your deck, in which case your throne-room'd card might not make that big of a difference. But the best designed-cards doesn't mean the most-powerful cards. There's many situations where you'd pay 5 for a throne room anyway, and well, here is your thane. Honestly this is all very interesting to me, and I think it's a great card!

Thane also lets you play mid-turn gains without drawing your whole deck or putting it on top of your deck, which is a way cool. Iron-working a non terminal action, and then than'ing that action back to get a village could be handy. Plus, thane combos with hermit. It allows you discard cards that you want hermit to trash! And Hermit gives you mid turn gains you could play with thane! If only you had a village -- oh yes, madman helps there (of course if that's the only village, these kind of tricks may not be worth it).

Minion away a good non terminal because there was only one minion in hand in a minion deck? No worries, you can thane it back! Why not discard a tunnel or loyal hound on your turn? Play important actions your opponent rabbled or scrying-pool'd away for you? Yes. This card is great. One of my favorite fan cards I've seen.

Thane is a great card in that it leads to more interesting and fun games. Part of me used to wish chapel never existed so we would have to have more interesting non-vanilla trashing cards to take its place (like what happened with Poacher before it existed). Thane makes me wish throne room wasn't around so we'd have more cool cards like this. Excellent work.
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Aquila

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Tasks
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2019, 05:39:45 pm »
+1

...
This is a long overdue 'thank you, glad you like it, welcome to the forums!' Quite a touching first post, and I'm pleased someone likes Thane as much as I do. Hope you're enjoying the weekly contest!

Now to the other main feature I plan for this set:

Tasks
In the weekly contest, I made these be a basic Supply pile. They all cost $2 and no buy, and you'd choose one from the deck you could fulfill, and you were only allowed one Task at once. This deck was a random draft of 5 Tasks each game, 2 copies of each.
It wasn't quite right - they could become a way to just convert $2 into a different resource in an engine when fulfilled every turn. And with the possibility of instant fulfill on some Tasks, there wasn't anything to work towards - you'd just take these when convenient; so the design space for good ones was small.

So with changes, they've turned out similar to Asper's Feats and even more like Udzu's Adventures. You have my word there was no inspiration drawn from either of these. Still, this might prove boring reading.

The new Tasks, quests at the start of the game you analyse how you can complete
They're landscape cards that you keep in a deck by themselves, shuffle, then draw 3 out (seems a sensible number to comprehend) at random for the game. This group will count as 1 of the 2 landscapes recommended for games. Each player also gets 3 tokens of some kind (let's call them Accomplish tokens) in their colour. Each Task has an Objective and a Reward. During the game, in a similar manner to using a Reaction effect, a player may interrupt game flow and declare they have completed the Objective on one of the Tasks, prove it to the other players if necessary, then put one of their Accomplish tokens on the Task card and get the Reward straight away. A Task can only be accomplished once. A player does not have to immediately declare a Task is accomplished the first time they can do so; there are cases for waiting until a later time, and accountability issues are avoided.
So, how these affect the game: whilst the Kin cards call for analysis at the start to determine the best combos, the Tasks can have a bearing on the route players take their decks through during the game, to have them think ahead. 
Like a quest board you might find in an RPG. I would absolutely call them Quests if not for the Event.
The first drafts I have so far:


Quote
Appease - Task
Objective: have 2 Duchies in your hand, revealed.
Reward: +4VP
Bring 2 Duchies together in peace. This may affect when you would normally get Duchies, as effectively bringing them up to 5VP each can be worth it. This one appears to be sound; you can always do it, and it makes Duchies more relevant.


Quote
Build - Task
Objective: gain 3 cards on your turn.
Reward: +4VP
This one isn't always doable, and that might be something to rectify. Either that or 3 Tasks become 2, or you replace it, or you don't actually do full random games with these. Trouble is the design space is narrow if every Task needs to always be doable, and this one can be done in many different ways so is very replayable.


Quote
Demolish - Task
Objective: trash 3 cards on your turn.
Reward: +3VP
Exactly the same story as Build.


Quote
Explore - Task
Objective: have 8 differently named cards in play.
Reward: +5VP
The Horn of Plenty experience. This needs more work to do anything, though, which may not be doable. Investigate, at the bottom, might be enough on the variety theme.


Quote
Gather - Task
Objective: produce $15 or more.
Reward: +1 Buy, +3VP
It's always possible, quite fun to achieve, but if double Province is possible it's probably best to go down that route anyway.


Quote
Impress - Task
Objective: complete 2 other Tasks on the same turn.
Reward: +4VP
Extra points if you can complete the 2 other Tasks together. A simple extra twist that's welcome...if it's actually doable.


Quote
Investigate - Task
Objective: have a hand of 5 or more cards with no copies in it, revealed.
Reward: +3VP
Get a big enough hand of all different cards. Always possible, and it seems better than Explore in every way.

I fully expect the Rewards to be imbalanced, and overall for this to currently be another case of poor execution. Some possible adjustments I thought of was to attach the sometimes doable ones to relevant cards like with Heirlooms, to make them doable; but then that makes them a bit less replayable. Possibly I could make a Task that needs a specific kingdom pile, and that Task be shuffled in or added to the draft of 3 when that pile is selected.


The OP has been updated with them. Other changes have sneaked in as well:

Engraver has had its buy taken off, just as segura said.
Rider just gets $1 per card discarded, not per Rider in play as well. It could get crazy money if the pile wasn't contested, too much pressure.
Rivals is rather different:

Quote
Rivals - Action Attack Kin, $3* cost.
+2 Cards
Each other player may reveal a Kin other than Rivals from their hand. Those who don't trash the top card of their deck and gain a card with the same cost as it that you choose.
-
In games using this, Kins cost $1 more.
The former version could hit despite the best attempts by the opponents. This Attack is a bit less wild and helps assure you get them to have bad Kins. The price increase adds to this as well as boost tfb tricks (this costs $4); but how easy is it to keep remembering it?
If this is sound, I can try to make this set free from Durations.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 02:58:28 am by Aquila »
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2019, 08:30:11 am »
0

I think the concept of the tasks is a good idea, but all of them aside from Gather just give VP as the reward which makes them feel very similar to Landmarks.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2019, 06:48:15 pm »
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Here's a fairly big update.

Secret Keeper is out. Its strategy was a bit too similar to Piper's and the bottom part felt like a clash rather than a compliment. Pearl could take it better, as then Kins could be an occasional good purchase rather than 'need lots or none at all'. With a bit of tweaking, I got to...

Quote
Legend - Treasure Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Buy
When you play this, choose one: gain a Kin; or trash a Kin you have in hand or in play, for + $1 per $1 it costs.
-
In games using this, when you gain a Kin, each other player gets +1VP.
I twigged Pearl could be Salvager for Kins, and a Kin trash-for-benefit caring about cost unlike Pillar felt good; it likes expensive Kins, Festival Grounds likes them cheap. I also had 'gain a Kin' hovering as an idea and thought it could be balanced with the bottom line part so stuck it on.


Quote
Reassign - Night Kin, $4 cost.
You may trash a Kin you have in play, to gain a Kin costing up to $3 more than it.
You may trash this, to move your Ally token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile of your choice. (During your turns, cards from that pile are also Kins.)
Reassign is back to a clean Night variant, because I've thought of some possible accompanying Nights for the set. It looks pretty horrible in a game with Legend... There is one possible trick that saves the combo from being awful, at least.
This, in turn, may be showing that Kins worth -1VP is a bad design that shouldn't be done.


Quote
Rivals - Action Attack Kin, $3* cost.
+2 Cards
Each other player may reveal a Kin other than Rivals from their hand. Those who don't take Taunted, or if they already have it turn it over to Twice Taunted.
-
In games using this, Kins cost $1 more.
Another change to Rivals. Really, who likes Swindler? How much less you'll like it when you can change their card for a weaker Kin card. So what could that attack be? Not a junking one, as that reduces the chance of having Kins in hand. A handsize Attack could work but what would be most balanced? Militia looked a little weak and Legionary a bit strong. So I did something new, using a State since I already have Targeted. Reduce a vanilla number in their next Action's instructions by one that they choose, that stacks up to two times because States can be two-sided and so you can use more than 1 Rivals.
There's more vanilla adjustment later.


Quote
Travelling Merchant - Action Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action
+ $1

This turn, cards cost $1 more if you have a Kin other than Travelling Merchant in play.
-
When you gain this, if you have any Kins in play, trash it.
Travelling Merchant returns to being a pile all by itself, making the choice between using it or other Kins more definite. It's a $4 Peddler that almost becomes plain cantrip if ever you play a different Kin down, that you can't gain at all if you have any Kins down. I thought a peddler that prevented gaining copies of itself while in play quite cool, but maybe it weakens this too far. Travelling Merchant is a long name to write twice on the card...


Ambush got the non-Victory only nerf so no blocking provinces. There are kinder, more polite ways to discourage ending the game.


I'm going daring and taking the bottom part of Armoursmith off whilst keeping it at $4. There are disadvantages to big draw early on, like greater likelihood of terminal collision meaning earlier need for Villages, but am I clutching at straws? Is it a big money monster?


Quote
Highland Village - Action, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+2 Actions

Look through your remaining deck. Discard a card from it, then shuffle it.
Highland Village is a bit more comprehensible for engines now. It can remove junk from the deck or put a key card in the discard pile. But of course, shuffle deck on a cantrip means lengthy waiting - I'm counting on the decision of the card to discard being quick and easy to make.

3 more new cards:

Quote
Neighbouring Village - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Actions
When you next play an Action from your hand this turn, add 1 more to each +Card, +Buy, +$ and +VP amount it gives you as you resolve it.
This contest winner was designed to go here. A Village that likes careful thought as to play order, boosting the next Action you play from hand. Vault would be +3 Cards, discard any number of cards for +$1 each, then +$1 if you discarded any; you got a +$ amount then added 1 on to it, you did not add 1 to the instructions. 'Resolving' means the same as on Royal Carriage; Hireling doesn't give you anything as you resolve it so no bonus given, similarly to the VP from Goons and Groundskeeper.


Quote
Scrounger - Night Attack, $5 cost.
Each player (including you) shuffles their discard pile into their deck. Gain a Gold.
Non-terminal Gold gainer, but those Golds will come slowly as they and this miss shuffles. You can use this shuffle quite strategically in this set. Everyone's shuffling their discard pile in, mainly because it's a new Attack that fits neatly. 'Attack', I say; how often is it helpful? Should it be there?


Quote
Tinker - Night, $5 cost.
Look through your discard pile. Trash a card from it. If you did, trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing exactly the total cost of the trashed cards.
Another contest entry I designed to go here. Find a card in the discard, maybe something you just bought, and Forge it with one card from your hand. That it can thin and build non-terminally makes it potent, yet mundane Province milling whilst trashing Coppers can be too automatic at times. Perhaps there's an elegant fix to this.

And that's the lot.

I think the concept of the tasks is a good idea, but all of them aside from Gather just give VP as the reward which makes them feel very similar to Landmarks.
Yes, the flexibility is there to add different rewards and should probably be used. Gain a Gold is thematic, as could gaining a Chief be for Impress.
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2019, 10:06:22 pm »
0

I think that the new Armoursmith is too strong in general. Its drawback isn't nearly severe enough to justify a effect costing just ; by the time you're drawing your entire deck, you've gotten far more out of Armoursmith than can be justified for a mere .
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