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Aquila

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Dominion: Dynasties
« on: May 10, 2018, 12:12:24 pm »
+3

Introducing tribes into Dominion. Here is a set of cards revolving around a new mechanic, the Kin type. Choose a Kin type card for a game, and you put a counter on 2 random other non-Victory kingdom piles that aren't Kin type themselves. These also get the Kin type, and the group (which I term the tribe) will all be affected in some way by the original Kin card(s). At the bottom of this post is an example game to illustrate the mechanic.
So how you play the game doesn't change that much, but there are extra dimensions to think about and more things to analyse at the beginning of the game. If I make this into a full fan expansion, starting analysis will be the central theme. There are a few ideas after the Kin cards that could fit in.

The cards - the Kin type gets a turquoise colour and the two counters would be turquoise too, so they're easy to see on the table. I give my positives (+) and negatives (-) on each design, not out of lack of confidence but for modesty.
(A note regarding the use of internet images: the only intended purpose of these card mock-ups is to present the ideas on this forum in an easy-to-understand format. If I later wish to post them anywhere else or print them out, I will make my own artwork.)


Quote
Banner - Victory Kin, $5 cost.
Worth 1VP for every 3 Kins in your deck.
This doesn't change the tribe directly. Rather, it makes an alt VP strategy that will be different each game. You analyse how viable it is.
+: one of the first simple ideas that clicked, it feels safe yet compelling.
-: hard to conclude balance.


Quote
Exile - Action Attack Kin, $5 cost.
+ $3
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes one that you choose, and gains a card with the same cost as it that you choose.
-
In games using this, when scoring, -1VP per Kin you have.
A bad tribe; the worse the cards are in the game, the nastier. You sacrifice a little VP going for this, but try to Swindle your opponents into getting a lower score by giving them Kins or generally messing their deck up.
+: it's a nice contrast to the positive synergies on the other cards, and has a varying degree of dangerousness each game.
-: could be too strong or oppressive overall.


Quote
Highland Village - Action Kin, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+2 Actions

While this is in play, Kins cost $1 less, but not less than $0.
This lowers the cost of the tribe and helps play it all, so it can build a tribal deck. So analyse how effective this would be, or sometimes, what lowering the cost of part of the kingdom will do.
+: simple and quite powerful.
-: there are lots of Villages or pseudo Villages in this batch already. Could the top change to something nicer?


Quote
Mead Hall - Action Kin, $3 cost.
You may play an Action Kin from your hand twice.
-
In games using this, when you buy a Kin, you may first trash a card from your hand.
You can make a sleeker tribal engine than Highland Village, or if the other Kins aren't right for this there's still some passive trashing in the game.
+: a nice combo of the top and bottom. With such an influential passive the top doesn't need to be all important.
-: not so much interaction analysis to do here, "those trash, that's nice" then what Mead Hall can become.


Quote
Pillar - Action Kin, $4 cost.
Trash a card from your hand. +1VP for one type it has, and +2VP for the extra types.
-
In games using this, one empty Kin pile does not count toward the 3 for game end.
Trash the right targets to get the most points from this. Kin counts as a type, so will give more points. To prolong the game a bit and make this more viable, you can safely empty one Kin pile; this can also have its own effects on the game.
+: the two effects relate but not too closely; heavily implying pile emptying isn't good.
-: is the top balanced, or should it give just 1VP per type?


Quote
Piper - Action Reaction Kin, $5 cost.
+2 Cards
You may play an Action Kin from your hand.
-
Directly after resolving an Action Kin, you may play this from your hand.
Play a chain of Kins.
+: simple yet compelling.
-: maybe too strong in some cases.


Quote
Reassign - Night Kin, $2+ cost.
Trash a Kin you have in play. Gain a Kin costing up to $4 more than it.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it by $3, to move your Recruit token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile. (Your cards from that pile get the Kin type, and cards still in the pile get the Kin type on your turns.)
You can pay $5 for this to choose a pile that counts as Kin type just for you, if there's an amazing combo available. Reassign itself lets you quite freely exchange kins around, so you can make good upgrade paths.
+: this hopefully opens up a new compelling area of remodeling.
-: so many words! And looking at Improve this could be too strong.


Quote
Runner - Action Kin, $3 cost.
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Kin. You may put one of the revealed cards back on top. Put the Kin back on top and discard the rest.
Make the next card in your deck a Kin, and you can put another card you reveal just under it if there's a good combo there or you're running to other Runners.
+: has different uses depending on what the Kins are and how many you get.
-: lots of revealing, lots of time. A Scavenger variant would be quicker.

Split pile top/bottom:

Quote
Pearl - Treasure Kin, $3 cost.
$3
+1 Buy

When you play this, trash a Kin you have in play.
Quote
Travelling Merchant - Action Kin, $5 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

You may reveal your hand and discard the Kins, for + $2.
You may gain a Pearl from the trash.
Overall, you want to avoid clashing cards of this pile together in hand with other Kins (including themselves). Analyse how you can do this.
+: the pile implies choosing between it or other Kins, which is neat to analyse.
-: that the pile clashes with itself could be seen as undesirable, even if it calls for skill.


Quote
Vice - Action Kin, $2 cost.
+2 Actions
+1 Buy

-
In games using this, when you gain a 3rd differently named Kin on your turn, you may gain a Chief from its pile.
Quote
Chief - Action Kin, $0* cost.
Choose one: draw until you have 7 cards in hand; or + $4, reveal your hand, and the player to your left chooses one for you to discard.
(This is not in the Supply.)
If you can get three different Kins in the same turn, you win the respect of the Chief, a free payload card. How hard will he be to get, what kind of deck would be made, and is it all worth it?
+: all the analysis involved here is great.
-: perhaps Chief is too strong.

Other cards:


Quote
Armoursmith - Action, $4 cost.
+4 Cards
If your deck and discard pile empty while this is in play, trash this.
-
When you gain this, each other player looks at the top 2 cards of their deck, discards any number, and puts the rest back in any order.
Simple draw that can't be put in a full deck-draw engine so easily. Simplicity is the key here to make analysing how Kins affect this easier. As much as I'd love to not have the bottom bit, it feels like a $4.5 cost card so the gift to other players knocks this down to $4 whilst softens the early deck cycling advantage this gives.
+: simplicity with a little twist to think around. The on-gain effect is an elegant accompaniment.
-: a bit more wordy than I'd like.


Quote
Potter - Action, $4 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4. You may reveal an Action from your hand with the same cost as it, for +2VP.
More VP tokens to accompany Pillar. A Workshop that can get you ahead on points if you play things right.
+: VP that involves some strategy and starting analysis.
-: Silvers may be points gained too easily with a $3 Action. 


Quote
Farrier - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Cards
+1 Action

Discard a Copper (or reveal you can't.)
Quote
Rider - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+1 Card per Farrier you have in play. Discard any number of cards. + $1 per card discarded per Rider you have in play.
Split pile to go with Travelling Merchant, and split piles fit well in the set anyway. Farrier is drawing cards for you somehow, either as a late Lab or as fuel for Rider's draw, and the Rider himself Vaults the draw away for payload. Besides other things.
+: Farrier relates to Rider but can also be used apart from it, and should create competition to get the most of them. So it should make a good split pile.
-: Rider could be too dependent on Farrier, and the combo could be too strong a deck with only a few Villages.


Example
So this is pretty close to the first playtest game. The kingdom:
|tribe

Mead Hall and Highland Village were randomised, and the two counters fell on Shanty Town and Pirate Ship, to effectively turn them into Kin types with the turquoise colour. A tribe of pirates with their hideaway slums deep in the highlands, where their feasting hall stands proud for all to see. Interpret the flavour how you will. All of the tribe likes the trashing Mead Hall gives when they're bought, so it's hard to ignore here, and Pirate Ship will make a good target for Mead Hall to throne. Highland Village will make the tribe cost $1 less for each copy of it in play, which could affect Expand or more likely cheapen Pirate Ship and generally make trashing easier, though there are no buys. For strategies, you might say Mead Hall-Pirate Ship is strong and could get going quickly, but Sea Hag will get in the way. Or go generic trashing with Secret Passage-Mystic.
Hope this makes things clear.


Outtakes:

Telltale was too dependent on the rest of the tribe, and could often do nothing. When it did work, it wasn't a pleasant play experience.
Gamekeeper was one 'in games using this' effect too many, and not too fun.


Conclusions
If you wind up playing with multiple Kin cards in a game, it can be challenging to remember all the passive effects. The most you have to remember is that each Kin is worth -1VP and can trash a card from hand when you buy one, one Kin pile doesn't count to game end if empty, and keep an eye on Vice. On top of the on-play effects. I recommend using no more than 2 Kin cards, which follows the rule for landscape cards and is what I've kept in mind whilst designing. But to neatly apply this rule, this should either not be an expansion and remain a batch of cards, or be an expansion with fewer, diverse Kins in it.
If I go the expansion route, the other cards need to be very simple, some use VP tokens, some be Nights and some be split piles, all of which can fit the analysis theme. Kind of like an Empires expansion.

At the least I hope this gets across the feel for compelling diversity and replayability I get with this mechanic. But I struggle with sound execution of it; maybe some of the ideas here use it poorly, or maybe they're interesting. You be judge. If you have an idea for a Kin card, feel free to post it; I don't pretend to know everything about the dos and don'ts of this mechanic.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 09:51:25 am by Aquila »
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Aquila

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 06:42:15 pm »
0

Now that I've got images working again, I've presented the first post hopefully better. I've also added 2 new cards, Gamekeeper and Telltale.
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Kudasai

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 10:38:04 pm »
+1

Nothing like cool mock-ups to get people interested! I certainly think they and the example game will go along way in helping people to understand what's going on. It certainly did for me.

Now, on to first impressions:
Overall - I certainly like the Kin/Tribe idea; it's very fitting of the times. I'd get nervous about some Tribe combinations being so strong that the rest of the board is ignorable, but I guess some Dominion boards are going to being like that regardless. "In games using this" cards are great, but having one on every card is making my head spin a little bit. The are certainly straight forward enough, so maybe with a board in front of me and a bit more time with the ideas, they'd make more sense to me. Do you think any of these can be cut? Or do you think having one, random "Kin Landmark" per game would make the cards function more or less the same way? Again this is purely a first impression.

Mead Hall - I certainly like that at the very least this can trash, but for that reason I think it should cost at least $4, even despite it only being able to play two other Tribe cards. There doesn't seem to be any real setback to opening with this, versus Throne Room where buying it too early means there might just be an extra dead card in your deck. A double Mead Hall opening could even result in you trashing 3 cards before your 2nd shuffle (if they connect). If you're hoping to keep this cost low, I'd recommend dropping the trashing part.

Highland Village -
I like the interactions that cancel each other out. So Highland Village initially cost $5 with the setup effect? In a game where the Kin cards are not great, this would be an expensive Village. Making cost $4 ($3) seems fair.

Banner - A victory card that scores off Kin cards seems like a must, but I have no idea how balanced it is.

Gamekeeper - I'm bad at understanding draw cards so I should abstain from commenting on this one. :)

Telltale - This is quite the Attack against Kin cards. My first thought is that it should have some sort of cap on how many Curses a player can gain. A single card that can hand out more than one Curse per play seems like it would lead too unbalanced play. Of coarse reducing that means the +1 Coin Setup becomes even more powerful. This one makes me a bit nervous, but I'd love to hear if you've played any games with it and how it performed.

Overall - I think the Kin thing is a neat idea, I just wonder if there's a better way to pick Kin cards other than being random. Perhaps some sort of drafting system? Of coarse, as you stated, even bad cards seem to become quite powerful.

Are there more cards with the Kin type? Thanks for sharing!
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2018, 03:31:22 am »
+2

So, overall, I think this has potential, BUT, there is one glaring issue:
With multiple Kin cards in a game, you suddenly have a metric buttload of extra effects tacked on to a lot of different cards, as the cards that come with the kin type also get the extra effects. Even with just two Kins, it gets cwazy. I'll take your example kingdom, but replace Advancing Village with Highland Village (your non-kin custom card with the second kin from your original post). So, our new kingdom looks like:
Mead Hall, Highland Village, Pirate Ship (kin), Shanty Town (kin), Develop, Secret Passage, Mystic, Expand, Hoard, Sea Hag. (I made the original post on my phone, so if you have the handy dandy f.ds extension, turning on autolink cards will probably help your understanding of the post.)
You now have four kin cards, all of which now cost 1 more, are gained to your deck, and can trash a card before doing anything else. That's a helluvalot to track without any useful marker for each individual kin effect, just one token overall that says "hey, this is a kin card y'all!" And this is only with two Kins inthe kingdom! What happens when you get three? Or, god forbid, even more?

Back to our modified example kingdom, let's pretend that this is easy to track for a moment and run an example turn with a 4-3 split. On your four coin, buy Shanty Town, putting it onto your deck. On your three, you now are guaranteed to be able to trash an estate and have the potential a 4 in 5 chance to hit 4 coin again, all by purchasing one heavily modified Shanty Town.

Now, all that salt aside, I think the core concept is good, but the execution is waaaaaay off. Kin cards should have minor bonuses to reward you for playing other kin, not major game-warping ones. The "In games using this" text probably needs to go on a lot of those cards, replaced with minor on-play bonuses if you reveal a kin from your hand, or "while this is in play, when you <buy, trash, gain, etc.> a Kin, do <some effect>. You can have some "In games using this" stuff, but limiting it to only one or two cards would be a really good idea, as there is no good way to track them and, as I demonstrated above, having multiple kins at a time could get way out of hand otherwise.

I'll do specific card critiques when I'm at my computer. Critiques done below.

I'll say again, I really do think this has potential, but it needs to be toned way down of it's going to be balanced and fun. I'm being hyper-critical because I like the idea. That's just kinda the way I am. I apologize if I came off as harsh or rude
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 04:19:07 am by Doom_Shark »
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2018, 04:12:37 am »
+1

OK, so I still couldn't sleep, so I decided to go to my computer and do card-by-card stuff. Here we go:

Mead Hall: I like the idea of a Kin-only throne, since you've built in setup rules to ensure you have at least two other throne-ables. The bottom half is what worries me; as I said in my other post, the "In games using this" text on all of these should in most cases be removed entirely and replaced with a small bonus. In fact, from here on out, I will be ignoring the bottom half unless I have something notable, and where I can, I will try to suggest a replacement. I don't think this one really needs a replacement for the bottom half, it's an elegant card once the bottom is removed.

Highland Village: Now that we've removed the bottom half, the card obviously needs to cost . If you really want, you could replace the second half of the bottom with "While this is in play, when you play a Kin, +." I really don't think it's necessary though, and makes the card a bit more powerful than I would be comfortable with as a first draft. If playtesting makes it seem a bit weak, that can be added, but I think it should start without.

Banner: Yes, you're definitely right that this mechanic needs a victory card. Honestly, it doesn't need the drawback at the bottom, so I would straight up cut it like with the first two. Even then, the card feels off to me. Personally, I'd reduce the ratio and the cost, makes it feel better without actually making it too much better.

Gamekeeper: This...actually doesn't seem too bad. It seems like the best design out of the box. Being a dead-end, getting the kin back to your hand is a nice marginal bonus, and I like the idea of getting silver for buying more kin. Of course, I'd change the silver gain to a "While this is in play" rather than "In games using this," but you probably guessed that by now.

Telltale: The attack needs to be toned down a bit, maybe change it to "whenever a player plays their first Kin in a turn," or something similar. As usual, I'd replace the "In games using this" with "While this is in play"

Like I said before, the concept is good, the execution...not so much. But I think this mechanic can really be whipped into shape. And, the way the rules for the Kin type are written, you could technically throw it on Card-Shaped-Thingeys too, like an Event-Kin to put a kin from your discard onto your deck or a landmark-kin that hands out tokens for playing X amount of Kins in a turn.

I graduate today, so I'm going to have a ton of time on my hands if you want to try to turn this into a full-fledged set and would be willing to accept my help in doing so.

Edit: one last nitpicky thing, your rules for the kin type shoul reference non-Victory, non-Kin cards
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 04:24:40 am by Doom_Shark »
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Holunder9

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2018, 07:43:18 am »
0

@Aquila: This is one of best concepts I have seen here. Great idea and to me all the cards (except perhaps for Gamekeeper which might better than Embassy as it net-draws one more and as it is even more "moneyish") look sound.

Mead Hall - I certainly like that at the very least this can trash, but for that reason I think it should cost at least $4, even despite it only being able to play two other Tribe cards. There doesn't seem to be any real setback to opening with this, versus Throne Room where buying it too early means there might just be an extra dead card in your deck. A double Mead Hall opening could even result in you trashing 3 cards before your 2nd shuffle (if they connect). If you're hoping to keep this cost low, I'd recommend dropping the trashing part.
I totally disagree. A dead terminal that trashes one card is superbad so opening Mead Hall is very likely to be wrong. Even if the other Kin card is something bad like Duchess or Chancellor you might prefer it as trasher due to the economy. And if something non-terminal, e.g. Pearl Diver, has been picked as Kin cards you will definitely prefer the cantrip trasher.

The strength of Mead Hall is not so much the card itself but the global effect it has on the Kingdom. Like any Throne Room variant it will only be bought once you have enough Actions in your deck. It cannot cost $4 as the Throning restriction and the ensuing matching risk doesn't compensate for the fact that Mead Hall can trash.


Mead Hall: I like the idea of a Kin-only throne, since you've built in setup rules to ensure you have at least two other throne-ables. The bottom half is what worries me; as I said in my other post, the "In games using this" text on all of these should in most cases be removed entirely and replaced with a small bonus.
This fix would totally castrate the concept and you wouldn't get all the Kin interactions.
If you worry about tracking becoming too messy you can simply only play with a maximum of 1 or 2 Kin cards.
If Dominion featured card-crafting like Mystic Vale the Kin concept could be implemented in an easy way to handle: push a second layer over the respective cards in the selected 2 Kin piles that contains the info that these cards are Kin cards and the global effect written on it.
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Gazbag

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 10:13:44 am »
+1

Ah I kept trying to make a post on these but never quite had the time and then forgot, oops!

My take on these is similar to DoomShark, I don't think you can go around tacking strong bonuses such as free trashing to cards - it will just make those cards overpowered! Obelisk can get away with a similar thing because the points don't actually do anything to accelerate your deck.  Like if Pearl Diver is the Kin in a Mead Hall game Pearl Diver is just an overpowered card, you don't actually need to buy any Mead Halls to get the "tribal payoff", this seems off from the idea of a tribe working together.

Have you seen the card "Hunter" from my Ice Ages expansion? I think that is closer to what Kin cards should be like, below rate cards that become strong when combined with Kins. The change I would make to Mead Hall is have it be a $5 Throne Room that gives some kind of extra bonus if the card you throne is a Kin (and axe the global Kin modifying effect). Now you actually have to buy both Mead Hall and the Kin cards to get the "tribal payoff.

For Highland Village I don't like that the card tells me it costs $4 but it actually costs $5 because its ability makes it cost more...  I think it would be better if Highland Village was just a while in play effect that allowed you topdeck gained Kins.

Banner seems reasonable, if you cut the below the line bit, I don't see what that is adding. The exact numbers might need tweaking but you'd have to play-test for that. If you feel it needs more than just the victory part it could have a reaction that reacts when you gain a Kin or something, not sure it really needs to be more than a simple victory card though.

Gamekeeper looks okay. The Kin reward is a little weird being on a terminal action though, you need a village or a non-action Kin to get any benefit out of it. I'm not excited by the Silver gaining, I don't think it adds much.

I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far  :(.

Overall I like the idea here, but I think the execution is off. The setup rules modifying cards don't feel like a tribe working together to me and they just mess with the balance of cards. Having multiple Kins in the Kin-gdom will also make it incredibly confusing as to what these card are doing now, with modified costs and on-gain things and on-play things, it's too much. 
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2018, 11:18:34 am »
0

I agree with the others that this is a neat idea. I'm questioning whether the new color is warranted, though. Yeah, I know, new colors are always cool, but in general they're reserved for types that behave fundamentally differently from normal Action cards (Durations have to be left out, Night cards can only be played after buy, etc.) An Action-Tribe really behaves no differently from a plain Action. Plus, in IRL games some of the Tribe cards aren't going to have the coloring anyway, which in particular doesn't really make the coloring helpful.
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Holunder9

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2018, 02:14:42 pm »
0

I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far  :(.
I don't follow you here. There are two effects, one makes Kins stronger and one makes them weaker. So you have potentially strong cards (Telltale in itself, meaning just the 3 Coins and 2 Cards spread over 2 turns, is also very strong *)  that counteract themselves. I think that this provides an interesting tension. Now that lousy Pearl Diver is a Peddler but if you play him while somebody else has Telltale in play you curse yourself.

Most importantly, to my knowledge this kind of interaction has not been seen in Dominion yet.

*- On a technical note, the strength of Telltale helps to bootstrap the entire thing meaning that even if the other 2 Kin cards are weak somebody will most likely go for Telltale. Then somebody else has to go for it to "punish" him for getting away with it without getting cursed and so on.

I'm questioning whether the new color is warranted, though.
It helps to know where you have to look to re-read the global effect.
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Gazbag

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2018, 02:51:00 pm »
0

I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far  :(.
I don't follow you here. There are two effects, one makes Kins stronger and one makes them weaker. So you have potentially strong cards (Telltale in itself, meaning just the 3 Coins and 2 Cards spread over 2 turns, is also very strong *)  that counteract themselves. I think that this provides an interesting tension. Now that lousy Pearl Diver is a Peddler but if you play him while somebody else has Telltale in play you curse yourself.

Most importantly, to my knowledge this kind of interaction has not been seen in Dominion yet.

*- On a technical note, the strength of Telltale helps to bootstrap the entire thing meaning that even if the other 2 Kin cards are weak somebody will most likely go for Telltale. Then somebody else has to go for it to "punish" him for getting away with it without getting cursed and so on.

Yes, this is what I mean about it being dominating. As the 2 Kins are incredibly likely to be busted given that they have a free +$1 you're forced into going for Telltale to stop your opponent from going mad with the Kins, but then Telltale itself is a Kin so now you're opened up to getting cursed by your opponent's Telltales and it's going to come down to how the shuffles play out as to who gets cursed. Oh and if e.g. the only village ends up being a Kin Telltale might just kill the engine and just end up making the game less fun. It just seems very obnoxious to me, I think there's a good reason why no interaction of this kind has been seen in dominion yet...
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Aquila

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2018, 05:02:24 pm »
0

So much feedback, and it's all great! Thank you!

To start with, the colour: Holunder's said my thinking, you want to see clearly what's in the tribe and know what that means. A normal coloured Kin with 2 counters with the word 'kin' on them has you looking for something too often.

I'm pleased the majority of what has been said is that the concept is good but the execution poor. That's exactly what I felt but couldn't be sure without outside perspective. Truth be told the tribe idea didn't spring up like this immediately. It started without the 2 counters on other piles. So each Kin card had some ability to synergise with itself, in case it was the only Kin in a kingdom. Mead Hall, for instance, was:
Quote
Action Kin, $2 cost.
You may play an Action Kin from your hand twice; or if you have another Kin in play, any Action.
But I could think of few interesting ideas to fit this format. You could do this Mead Hall, and if it simply named itself for checking if it's in play instead of being a Kin, it could be a fine card. But if there were another Kin, a $2 Throne Room would be volatile. It couldn't be balanced in both cases.
So: since we want the Kin type to have self synergy across different cards, we make it happen by force, and then each Kin card can have more interesting functions. I then went adventurous with ideas, and some of those are on these 5 cards. With the consequences being mentioned by DoomShark and Gazbag. Maybe I was thinking about each card individually too much and failing to appreciate the whole kingdom more, as I should with this mechanic.

You've shown me clearly that not every Kin card should have an 'in games using this' effect, and what they do on play will have an influence on the other Kins that will still produce new play experiences.
So, each individual card:

Mead Hall - yes, 3 cards with trash on play in the kingdom, some of them possibly cantrip, is too much. But I also feel the pairing of (light) Kin trashing and Kin Throne is interesting; the effects self synergise, yet they don't make a strategy by themselves, and that's where the rest of the tribe comes in. The strategy opened up will change each game. So, keep the two parts together and tone down the trashing, and for that I propose to make it on buy rather than on play. Exactly like Plan, but if Plan and Mead Hall appear in the same game they can both be used fine.

Highland Village - with this the top appeared first, and then I thought of the cost increase bit on bottom, and put the two together with the top-deck bit stuck on. The top-decking isn't the main idea; it wants to be a card that helps make a deck of the other Kins. Certainly the bottom effect on this could go. (I thought of it as raising the cost of part of the kingdom could make interesting things happen with Remodels - OK, why not put it on a Remodel then, or any kind of tfb?) The top is probably enough, at $5 cost or maybe $4.

Banner - unanimous agreement to remove the bottom, and with hindsight I agree. The possibility of the other tribe cards giving VP can influence if they're bought, or Banner's viability can be affected by the strength of the tribe in the kingdom. That's all it wants to do.

Gamekeeper - mixed response, though Gazbag's point is fair; this was always variable terminal draw, but with the act of finding a Kin from the discard it may feel nicer if it were nonterminal. I tweaked it from simply "+3 cards, reveal a Kin in hand for +1 card" to make it a fairer fit with the Silver gaining - it's a net draw of only 2 unless you get both Silver and Kins. Embassy is a good point though. It may be too strong a sift.
But, like Highland Village, the two parts were thought separately and stuck together. The Silver gaining looks possibly interesting as it will help some potential tribe cards and hinder others, so could make for a good or bad tribe. But is draw the best top for it?

Telltale - the tension idea Holunder describes is sort of what I had in mind, though Gazbag is probably quite right that both parts are too strong as is. The lure and catch idea seems to have something; if the tribe is a more appealing lure, then the Attack is more viable. It's down to achieving this in a less obnoxious way.

Thanks once again for your time! It's great this idea has landed as well as it has.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2018, 12:48:21 am »
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I think Highland Village needs to cost $5, compare to Highway, this is that plus an action but with the drawback of only affecting kins.
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Holunder9

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2018, 08:25:13 am »
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I'm not sure about Telltale punishing people for playing Kins, punishing people for playing actions just seems like a generally un-fun thing anyway. Having a free +$1 token on all Kins is just silly... I can't see this whole package not dominating games. Not sure what I'd do to change this one really, my least favourite here by far  :(.
I don't follow you here. There are two effects, one makes Kins stronger and one makes them weaker. So you have potentially strong cards (Telltale in itself, meaning just the 3 Coins and 2 Cards spread over 2 turns, is also very strong *)  that counteract themselves. I think that this provides an interesting tension. Now that lousy Pearl Diver is a Peddler but if you play him while somebody else has Telltale in play you curse yourself.

Most importantly, to my knowledge this kind of interaction has not been seen in Dominion yet.

*- On a technical note, the strength of Telltale helps to bootstrap the entire thing meaning that even if the other 2 Kin cards are weak somebody will most likely go for Telltale. Then somebody else has to go for it to "punish" him for getting away with it without getting cursed and so on.

Yes, this is what I mean about it being dominating.
Even with good trashing you can rarely skip junkers anyway so I fail to see why this is a big issue.


I think Highland Village needs to cost $5, compare to Highway, this is that plus an action but with the drawback of only affecting kins.
You are aware that the first Highland Village you buy does cost already $5, right? 6$ would perhaps be Okish for a Highway+Village hybrid but it is too expensive for a Highway that only works on 3 cards. A Highway variant that couldn't be used to green is worth significantly less than Highway.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2018, 08:46:18 am »
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I think Highland Village needs to cost $5, compare to Highway, this is that plus an action but with the drawback of only affecting kins.
You are aware that the first Highland Village you buy does cost already $5, right? 6$ would perhaps be Okish for a Highway+Village hybrid but it is too expensive for a Highway that only works on 3 cards. A Highway variant that couldn't be used to green is worth significantly less than Highway.

Sorry, I was responding to OP's response to the feedback on the card and forgot to quote:

Highland Village - with this the top appeared first, and then I thought of the cost increase bit on bottom, and put the two together with the top-deck bit stuck on. The top-decking isn't the main idea; it wants to be a card that helps make a deck of the other Kins. Certainly the bottom effect on this could go. (I thought of it as raising the cost of part of the kingdom could make interesting things happen with Remodels - OK, why not put it on a Remodel then, or any kind of tfb?) The top is probably enough, at $5 cost or maybe $4.

Specifically the last sentence:
Quote
The top it probably enouch, at $5 cost or maybe $4
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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 06:44:44 pm »
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Playtesting update, OP updated:

Mead Hall - trashing changed from on-play to on-buy. There's much less chance of it being imbalanced like this.
Highland Village - as suggested, removed the bottom and costed it $5. It's still doing plenty like this.
Banner - removed bottom, and halved the VP; now it's comparable to Vineyard, where in exchange for points off likely fewer piles it gets points off itself, and it's a bit easier to gain multiples of.
Gamekeeper - Silver gain limited to $4 cost Kins and over. Some openings were too strong.
Telltale - removed + $1 on Kins, made the Curse gain hit only the first played Kin but it's put onto deck. Hits less often but strongly when it does hit. The tribe is to be its own 'lure'.

And two new ones, each gone through various forms to reach as they are through testing. They may still need work:

Quote
Chief - Action Kin, $8 cost.
Choose one: draw until you have 7 cards in hand; or + $4, reveal your hand, and discard the highest costing non-Victory card.
-
In games using this, when you gain a second differently named Kin on your turn, you may gain a Chief.
This tries to make a little minigame - if you can get two different members of the tribe to join you, you win the Chief. It's expensive otherwise, but tries to be a worthwhile prize. So in theory this becomes more available when the tribe is good, though sometimes this is just what you need in a game and the tribe is worth getting regardless. Hopefully the top bit is balanced? When you can gain it easily, when gaining or +Buys are available, it gives something still needed but not always reliably.


Quote
Reassign - Night Kin, $2+ cost.
Trash another Kin you have in play. If you do, gain a Kin costing up to $6.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it by $3, to move your Recruit token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile costing $1 or more. (Cards from that pile have the Kin type.)
The principle is: you get to swap your Kins around fairly freely, and so have differing upgrade paths. You can make another pile be Kin exclusively to you to give you more flexibility, so you can Recruit a card that's easy to get and upgrade it to something better later, or bring a final power card into the tribe. It's a Night because getting to play the cards you want to change first seems to make it actually relevant. I tried to make it cost $2 so it can be an easy pickup with a spare buy to change later. It seemed to be too good if you could Recruit Coppers to upgrade them, or at least it was too automatic a thing to do and all the fun flexibility of this card was taken away. The Kin you gain caps at $6 because of Chief, and probably King's Court.
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Holunder9

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2018, 04:48:26 am »
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I like the new Mead Hall with the auto-Plan. Seems very strong but if Mead Hall is the only Kin buying them mindlessly in the opening is bad as you are just exchanging one dead card for a card which is so far also dead. So you really gotta time this well and perhaps first buy some Actions before you go for Mead Hall.
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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2018, 07:43:28 am »
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Chief's "highest-costing" is ill-defined; what do I discard if I have a Possession, a Prince and a City Quarter in hand?

I don't know how fun the gaining stuff is. if it is basically never worth it to pay $8 for it (and the effect is rather that of a decent $5), then why make it a supply pile at all?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 07:44:30 am by faust »
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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2018, 02:12:11 pm »
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Chief's "highest-costing" is ill-defined; what do I discard if I have a Possession, a Prince and a City Quarter in hand?

I don't know how fun the gaining stuff is. if it is basically never worth it to pay $8 for it (and the effect is rather that of a decent $5), then why make it a supply pile at all?

This could be made to discard the most expensive card in Coin. So Debt and Potion cards would actually be better with Chief.
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faust

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2018, 02:14:32 pm »
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Also to make Chief a card that you frequently wnat to gain with its kin it would probably be best if it was nonterminal.
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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2018, 02:19:32 pm »
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Oh, and another thing I noticed about Reassign. Currently, placing a Kin token makes cards Kins for all players. Is that the intended behaviour? It seems like you'd be giving your opponents something for free. Otherwise, you probably need to clarify that they only have Kin type on your own turns. I'd be mildly worried about a card frequently changing its type over the course of the game, but can think of no example where it would be a big issue, so it might be fine.
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Holunder9

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Re: Mechanic idea: tribes
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 03:59:38 pm »
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Why make it a supply pile at all?
Peddler is also in the Supply and will never be bought at full price. Like Peddler Chief's high price guarantees that you have to work for the below-the line condition and it enables trash-for-benefit tricks.
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Aquila

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Re: Tribes
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2018, 05:46:37 am »
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Whilst waiting for Renaissance to know what will happen with Revolution, I turned my attention to these. Updated OP, changes here:

Chief - fair point with cost definition. $4 is a big boost, and a simpler way to ensure balance is to have the player to your left discard one, so that's changed. I considered the idea of making it a non-Supply pile and came up with:
Quote
Vice - Action Kin, $2 cost.
+2 Actions
+1 Buy

-
In games using this, when you gain a 3rd differently named Kin on your turn, you may gain a Chief from its pile.
It's not set yet because it may not have to be. My overall concern is, though, that Chief is too strong a free giveaway when you can get the other Kins. A weak non-terminal variant could work (though Vice would help with Actions) but as a terminal it's more definitive as a game strategy if the tribe is right.

Reassign now gains a Kin costing up to $4 more than the one trashed, to help enable the copper recruiting and so help cut down its wall of text. It wants to make recruits Kins just for you, thanks for pointing that out faust, so it uses the wording "cards from that pile count as Kin type for you" so it works whilst they're in the Supply.

Telltale is out. It either didn't do anything or it was unpleasant to play. There's a really bitter feeling when you play a Kin knowing you have to get a crow for it. Gazbag's analysis too.

Onto new ones:

Quote
Exile - Action Attack Kin, $5 cost.
+ $3
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of their deck, trashes one that you choose, and gains a card with the same cost as it that you choose.
-
In games using this, when scoring, -2VP per differently named Kin you have.
Yes another wall of text, yes another 'in games using this' effect; it works at the end so it shouldn't get too much with the others. The premise is making a bad tribe, and this gets it involved in the game by being a Swindler variant. I'm aware that making a strong card worth negative VP is poor design, but I think it can work on this?


Quote
Piper - Action Reaction Kin, $4 cost.
+2 Cards
You may play an Action Kin from your hand.
-
Directly after resolving an Action Kin, you may play this from your hand.
It lets you play a chain of Kins. It's been strong in testing, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a $5.


Quote
Travelling Merchant - Action Kin, $4 cost.
+1 Card
+1 Action

Reveal your hand. + $2 if there are no Kins.
-
You can't buy this if you have 3 or more Coppers in play.
The premise is, use the other Kins or use this. Mid to late game it's fine, but automatic early, so it has a semi Grand Market limiter on it. I'd prefer something like it to making this also cost $5 as buying too many of these is bad.

Poor execution still?
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Re: Tribes
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2018, 08:12:49 am »
+1

On the Reassign change - not sure that "counts as Kin cards for you" is clearly defined. Just one example: assume I have Highland Village in play, and play Swindler. Another player trashes a card with my Kin token costing $5. "For me" that is a Kin card and thus would cost $4. But it is not my card. So does the cost reduction apply? And I am sure other problems like this can arise.

Exile - It feels that this is to Swindler what Legionary is to Militia. More economy, and a stronger attack. Makes me think that maybe it wants a similar restriction for the attack, like "you may reveal a Kin from your hand. If you do...". Like it is, it seems oppressively strong, and I don't think the negative VP do a lot to dissuade you from getting it.

Piper - like a mix of Cultist and Avanto. I think it definitely needs to cost $5, even without the text below the line. And the below-the-line line text is a bit strange in execution since I can use both the below-the-line and the on-play effects to play Piper-Piper. Not sure if it makes any actual difference, but it's kinda weird.

Travelling Merchant - if you don't want the other Kins, this is very automatic. And if other Kins are nonterminal, you're always going to activate one of these. It's kind of like a less interesting Conspirator. The buy restriction is kind of random and artificial and you can still easily gain this with Alms or most gainers. Would be slightly more interesting of the restriction was to have a Kin in play, but of course that gives a small chance that the card will be impossible to buy.
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Aquila

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2018, 12:16:05 pm »
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Another update with fresh perspective. OP updated, changes here in alphabetical order:


Exile makes each Kin worth -1VP, not sure why it was how it was before when this is simpler. I haven't yet looked at attack strength but yes, it could either look just at the top card of opposing decks or give $2.


Piper is up to $5. It can almost be a Lab that's played after a terminal Action, of course it's a $5...


Quote
Reassign - Night Kin, $2+ cost.
Trash a Kin you have in play. Gain a Kin costing up to $4 more than it.
-
When you buy this, you may overpay for it by $3, to move your Recruit token onto a non-Victory, non-Kin Supply pile. (Your cards from that pile get the Kin type, and cards still in the pile get the Kin type on your turns.)
Another go at wording Reassign. If it's going to be wordy, it might as well be really wordy. Moving the Recruit token rules to only be in the hypothetical rulebook isn't conventional but that would be nice.


Travelling Merchant is now at the bottom of a split pile to get over the opening issue. The top, Pearl, is a Gold +Buy that trashes a Kin in play, most likely itself but there's room for edge cases. Does it need its +Buy?


I made the changes to Chief I said I would, making it a non-Supply pile with Vice in the Supply. Now Chief is a bit harder to get yet is always possible with Vice's +Buy. He doesn't need to be a Kin, but he is for flavour.

Two new ideas:

Quote
Pillar - Action Kin, $4 cost.
Trash a card from your hand. +1VP for one type it has, and +2VP for the extra types.
-
In games using this, one empty Kin pile does not count toward the 3 for game end.
Trash the right targets to get the most points from this. Kin counts as a type, so will give more points. To prolong the game a bit and make this more viable, you can safely empty one Kin pile; this can also have its own effects on the game. Possibly the VP gain is too much and should just be 1VP per type. Why is Bishop so strong so that it needs its other-players-can-trash bit?
And yes it's another 'in games using this' effect. In exchange, Gamekeeper is an outtake, it wasn't that fun.


Quote
Runner - Action Kin, $3 cost.
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Kin. You may put one of the revealed cards back on top. Put the Kin back on top and discard the rest.
Make the next card in your deck a Kin, and you can put another card you reveal just under it if there's a good combo there or you're running to other Runners. But there's a lot of card revealing, lots of time. A Scavenger variant would be quicker but play a little differently.

One thing bothering me is the number of (pseudo) Villages in this set already. Highland Village, Mead Hall, Piper and Vice. I might change the top of Highland Village, unless you think of better ideas.

And should I enforce a rule of maximum 2 Kins in a game?
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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2018, 12:46:50 am »
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And should I enforce a rule of maximum 2 Kins in a game?

Without reading over many of the other changes you have made since I last looked at this thread, I would do it similarly to how Donald handled events/landmarks/projects: suggested cap of 2, but not enforced.
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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2018, 12:22:21 pm »
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It's probably too late to say, but I feel that it might be interesting if being a Kin increased the cost of a card that it affected; meaning, with sort of the older model, if you were giving trashing to a Shanty Town, it would also cost +$1.
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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2018, 10:03:29 am »
+1

It's probably too late to say, but I feel that it might be interesting if being a Kin increased the cost of a card that it affected; meaning, with sort of the older model, if you were giving trashing to a Shanty Town, it would also cost +$1.
I've learned that the less a Kin does to change a card the better, so analysis paralysis is lessened. Mead Hall might be a bad design anyway.

But for now, a few ideas to start this off as a full expansion:


Quote
Armoursmith - Action, $4 cost.
+4 Cards
If your deck and discard pile empty while this is in play, trash this.
-
When you gain this, each other player looks at the top 2 cards of their deck, discards any number, and puts the rest back in any order.
Simple draw that can't be put in a full deck-draw engine so easily. Simplicity is the key here to make analysing how Kins affect this easier. As much as I'd love to not have the bottom bit, it feels like a $4.5 cost card so the gift to other players knocks this down to $4 whilst softens the early deck cycling advantage this gives.


Quote
Potter - Action, $4 cost.
Gain a card costing up to $4. You may reveal an Action from your hand with the same cost as it, for +2VP.
More VP tokens to accompany Pillar. A Workshop that can get you ahead on points if you play things right.


Quote
Farrier - Action, $3 cost.
+2 Cards
+1 Action

Discard a Copper (or reveal you can't.)
Quote
Rider - Action, $5 cost.
+1 Buy
+1 Card per Farrier you have in play. Discard any number of cards. + $1 per card discarded per Rider you have in play.
Split pile to go with Travelling Merchant, and split piles fit well in the set anyway. Farrier is drawing cards for you somehow, either as a late Lab or as fuel for Rider's draw, and the Rider himself Vaults the draw away for payload. Besides other things.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Dynasties
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2018, 08:39:01 am »
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These are all very interesting cards. I have a hard time judging Armoursmith and Rider but on the first glance they look sound.
Farrier could be too good for $3 if there is a run on the pile in many games so it might have to cost $4. But on the other hand opening double Farrier isn't that brilliant: some cycling, no boost to the economy and you could end up in a similar situation as somebody who mindlessly buys Saunas in the opening.
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