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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 6962 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #250 on: September 10, 2018, 12:50:10 pm »
0

Hehe, good point -- I somehow didn't notice that it was far more easy to accomplish the loop with Somewhat more Straightforward Mastermind than with Very Wacky Mastermind.

A solution, although less fun and glitzy, is to steal some lingo from Scheme:

Quote
Somewhat less Straightforward Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.
-
You may play this by discarding or trashing another card from your hand.

This version can move non-Actions as well... which makes it more powerful.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 01:11:19 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #251 on: September 10, 2018, 01:32:59 pm »
+1

This doesn't look all th atexciting. Scheme is so good because it reduces risk whereas this doesn't. It is really more of a Market Square with some cherry on top.
I don't get the below-the-line stuff, it indicates that this card allows you to trash/discard a card to play it which would make it far too strong (cantrip trasher).

When one of your cards is trashed or discarded, you may play this from your hand.

This might be the wording you are looking for and it is simply a mess rule-wise due to the discard phase and due to trashing out of your turn.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #252 on: September 10, 2018, 01:56:57 pm »
+1

This doesn't look all th atexciting. Scheme is so good because it reduces risk whereas this doesn't. It is really more of a Market Square with some cherry on top.
I don't get the below-the-line stuff, it indicates that this card allows you to trash/discard a card to play it which would make it far too strong (cantrip trasher).

When one of your cards is trashed or discarded, you may play this from your hand.

This might be the wording you are looking for and it is simply a mess rule-wise due to the discard phase and due to trashing out of your turn.

I agree to most of what you said, but this isn't unsolvable. You could do something like just adding "during your Action phase" and probably specifying that the card has to be discarded/trashed from your hand. Yes, it allows drawing a card and getting an Action in the middle of another card, but the draw at least isn't worse than e.g. Overgrown Estate. I think the fact that the card itself is nonterminal introduces tracking annoyances, though. Somehow I'd like it better terminal. Drawing also has the issue of drawing further Masterminds and using them on the same trigger. Here's my (not so great) attempt at a version:

Mastermind, Action - Reaction
+3$
You may put one of the cards you discard from play this turn onto your deck when you do.
---
When you trash a card from your hand during your Action phase, you may play this from your hand.

Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #253 on: September 10, 2018, 04:30:48 pm »
+2

When you trash a card from your hand during your Action phase, you may play this from your hand.
This wording works but I feel like Neirai is not really sure what he actually wants. If that is really what he is after it feels pretty weird, play from your hand triggers feel like they belong on terminals and Somewhat less Straightforward Mastermind seems to be now more about being a conditional Working Village than that Pearl-Diver-Scheming thingy.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #254 on: September 10, 2018, 06:06:13 pm »
0

Quote
I feel like Neirai is not really sure what he actually wants.
You're not wrong!

I mean, I'm in the discovery phase for this card. I feel like it accidentally became a restart village and I like it in that spot, but I also like the idea of it being the scheme thing. For the time being I'm probably posting too much about it in its nascent form, since it's still evolving a lot, but I'd like to know about the pitfalls in it before going too much further down that road.

Quote
it indicates that this card allows you to trash/discard a card to play it which would make it far too strong (cantrip trasher).
Good point, it shouldn't be a cantrip trasher.

The intention of the bottom half is to let you play it from a dead hand. I'm thinking it makes more sense to steal text from Royal Carriage to make it more straightforward (wait I used that word already.)

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.
-
Directly after resolving an Action, you may discard a card to play this.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #255 on: September 11, 2018, 03:27:58 am »
+1

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.
-
Directly after resolving an Action, you may discard a card to play this.
The village effect looks like Hamlet at the first glance but it is much stronger, has similarities with the upcoming Action tokens and like with Sauna you can now play terminal draw before the village.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #256 on: September 11, 2018, 10:13:45 am »
0

Holunder9, you bring up a very good point. I should treat this card lightly given the upcoming expansion; it's possible that I think it has a cool gimmick now but it gets very lame when Renaissance comes out. Once Action tokens are in, the benefit of a discard-to-start-again card is questionable.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #257 on: September 11, 2018, 10:39:48 am »
0

More blathering:

What I like about this is that it feels interesting as part of the same "Directly after resolving an Action" mechanical set as Coin of the Realm and Royal Carriage. But those cards are both Reserve cards, for a reason. Royal Carriage is entirely set up to be a card that you can only "play" as "Directly after resolving an Action" by having a top that is just +1 Action, put this on your Tavern mat.

I purposely chose not to include Durations and Reserves in Antiquities. Sometimes I realize I'm designing them anyhow.

I haven't had a chance to play with Still evolving Mastermind yet, I think it's probably overpowered (more like a $6 than a $5) but I'm not sure yet. Comparing it to Hamlet and Sauna are both rather enlightening.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #258 on: September 11, 2018, 03:18:54 pm »
+1

I don't think that one shouldn't do something just because it might be remotely similar to cards that come up in Renaissance.
I also don't think that this is too pricey for $5.
It is worse than Working Village as you gotta discard a card, it is better due to the Sauna effect and it is better due to the Pearl Diver Scheme thingy.

No idea which of these 3 effects outweighs which but $5 seems to be roughly right.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #259 on: September 12, 2018, 08:03:49 am »
0

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.
-
Directly after resolving an Action, you may discard a card to play this.

This is pretty similar to

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
You may discard a card for +1 Action.
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.

Not the same, but not all that different, either.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #260 on: September 12, 2018, 06:15:10 pm »
0

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.
-
Directly after resolving an Action, you may discard a card to play this.

This is pretty similar to

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
You may discard a card for +1 Action.
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.

Not the same, but not all that different, either.

If I'm catching your meaning, it's true that the card is a lot like "Worker's Village +1 Buy but only if you discard a card, + double sort of bad scheme" so the pricing question really rests on how good the scheming part is.

Further musing: it's both worse than scheme, since scheme controls when you're going to get the card back, and better, since it's more persistent so you can combo it, and also better because this can target any card that's in play, not just actions.

I have played around with leaving the wording as is, so that you can move any card you played all turn, and changing it so that you can only move cards you already had in play when you play Mastermind. The latter is weaker but has fun highlights when you play Mastermind during a different phase, something that you can do.

Of course there's the danger of a card that only shines if you know and can replicate weird edge cases.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 06:22:42 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #261 on: September 13, 2018, 05:14:40 pm »
0

I played Still evolving Mastermind last night, it seemed to be in a pretty good place; I played it in a kingdom with a number of other villages (Bustling, Blessed, and Cursed, as well as Conclave -- random kingdoms are fun) and it seemed to be a good contender -- not a card you'd never buy against those cards, nor one you'd always buy against those cards, but one you'd buy a few of as well as more standard villages.

The set didn't have a lot of good payload cards, though, and in either case one game does not an adequate test make. But for now I'm pretty happy with it.

Edit: this was Still evolving Mastermind that chooses cards at Clean-up, rather than the idea of choosing cards immediately and then moving them at Clean-up. This was the more powerful version, and I think it felt okay that way.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 05:15:53 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #262 on: September 23, 2018, 10:34:14 pm »
0

Today I received the (unbranded) cover art image. This basically means that, once Renaissance launches and I assess the damage, I'll be releasing the final version.

So, like, one last chance to rip apart the cards :)
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #263 on: September 24, 2018, 10:12:11 am »
0

Looks like Moundbuilder Village just got clobbered. I'll have to try some variants on the design.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #264 on: September 24, 2018, 05:17:36 pm »
0

The current idea looks something like this:

Quote
Moundbuilder Village - Action - $4
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile and reveal a Moundbuilder Village. If you did, return it to the Supply for + $3.

Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Action.

So it's either an action Gold or a Village. When it functions as a Gold, it has a high maintenance cost.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 05:52:35 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #265 on: September 26, 2018, 11:04:29 am »
0

Looks like $4 for cost is too steep, since it's definitely worse than Mining Village and arguably worse than Village, or about on par.

Update:
It looks like it might be better at $4 if I make it a Bazaar with a Spoils effect if another one is found in the discard pile. This gives you some incentive if you're clever and keep them alive for multiple turns ($4 for a $5.) But now the concern is that losing them is still too weak. I may consider swapping the payoff to something like 3 cards.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 05:46:43 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #266 on: October 06, 2018, 12:02:24 am »
+1

Much more complex Moundbuilder Village that is also a lot cheaper:

Quote
Moundbuilder Village - Action - $3
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. Return a Moundbuilder Village from it to the Supply for + $3 (or reveal you can't); if you can't, +1 Card, +1 Action.
-
In games using this, when you gain a Silver during your Action phase, you may exchange it for a Moundbuilder Village.

Before someone says it's "strictly better than Village," it's not.
It feels very good in the $3 slot, but that might be because it's OP in the $3 slot. Further testing is needed.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #267 on: October 06, 2018, 08:10:07 am »
+1

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.
-
Directly after resolving an Action, you may discard a card to play this.

This is pretty similar to

Quote
Still evolving Mastermind - Action - $5
+1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
You may discard a card for +1 Action.
At the start of Clean-up this turn, you may choose two cards you have in play. If you discard them from play this turn, put them on the bottom of your deck in any order.

Not the same, but not all that different, either.

If I'm catching your meaning, it's true that the card is a lot like "Worker's Village +1 Buy but only if you discard a card, + double sort of bad scheme" so the pricing question really rests on how good the scheming part is.

Further musing: it's both worse than scheme, since scheme controls when you're going to get the card back, and better, since it's more persistent so you can combo it, and also better because this can target any card that's in play, not just actions.

I have played around with leaving the wording as is, so that you can move any card you played all turn, and changing it so that you can only move cards you already had in play when you play Mastermind. The latter is weaker but has fun highlights when you play Mastermind during a different phase, something that you can do.

Of course there's the danger of a card that only shines if you know and can replicate weird edge cases.
Wording suggestion to match scheme:
'This turn, you may put two of your cards on the bottom of your deck when you discard it from play.'
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #268 on: October 06, 2018, 08:10:54 am »
+1

Much more complex Moundbuilder Village that is also a lot cheaper:

Quote
Moundbuilder Village - Action - $3
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile. Return a Moundbuilder Village from it to the Supply for + $3 (or reveal you can't); if you can't, +1 Card, +1 Action.
-
In games using this, when you gain a Silver during your Action phase, you may exchange it for a Moundbuilder Village.

Before someone says it's "strictly better than Village," it's not.
It feels very good in the $3 slot, but that might be because it's OP in the $3 slot. Further testing is needed.
That's neat! Reminds me of Mining Village somehow.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #269 on: October 06, 2018, 08:16:12 am »
+1

Archaeologist wording suggestion: Look at the top 6 cards of your deck. Put 3 in your hand. Either discard the rest, or put them back in any order.
Based off of Navigator. It's not a big deal, but it doesn't seem necessary to say Choose one.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #270 on: October 06, 2018, 08:18:40 am »
+1

You could change Boulder trap to this: When you discard this, you may put it in the discard pile of the player to your left. When you gain this, gain a Silver onto your deck.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #271 on: October 06, 2018, 08:30:17 am »
+1

For Pyramid, unless you mean that if I play Pyramid and have 1 card left in my hand that I cannot trash it, then you could remove the word exactly. Also, if you always need to trash 2 cards, I'm not sure it also needs to be -VP. If you get yourself cleaned up, you don't need to trash anymore and it becomes harder to play Pyramid. Maybe instead have it come with junk a la death cart.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #272 on: October 06, 2018, 08:33:23 am »
+1

Sarcophagus could be: Play an action card from the Supply costing up to $2 less than this. As a matter of fact, this seems to be basically the same as Band of Misfits when you think about, besides the cursing thing and the fact that you can throne it to play 2 different cards.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #273 on: October 09, 2018, 02:42:33 pm »
0

Boy, it's taken me a long time to figure out what to write here, here goes!

Fly-Eagles-Fly, thanks so much for your interest. Archaeologist and Mastermind will use your suggested wording!

Boulder Trap I'm still pondering the wording on. I basically want the rule to be "you pass this around whenever you discard it, but if you forget, you can't go back and change it." Fun...

On Pyramid, the exactly 2 is to remind people that they need to trash 2 cards; trashing 1 card is not allowed. I do feel that the -VP is needed, first to counterbalance it (it's quite powerful) and to make it interesting, since you have to trash it before the end of the game or suffer the penalty. I also think that the Pyramid is probably the most risky design left in the set.

Sarcophagus differs from Band of Misfits in that it triggers the on-gain and on-trash effects of the targeted cards, and runs down the Supply piles. Originally played the card multiple times (like a Procession that targeted the supply) until someone here pointed out that it was far too strong. So I hit it with the nerf-bat a lot of times, and now it gets rather close to Band of Misfits. Seeing as I have a bit more time waiting for Renaissance to launch, I might take it back to its roots and try variants on it.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #274 on: October 09, 2018, 06:49:43 pm »
0

Boy, it's taken me a long time to figure out what to write here, here goes!

Fly-Eagles-Fly, thanks so much for your interest. Archaeologist and Mastermind will use your suggested wording!

Boulder Trap I'm still pondering the wording on. I basically want the rule to be "you pass this around whenever you discard it, but if you forget, you can't go back and change it." Fun...

On Pyramid, the exactly 2 is to remind people that they need to trash 2 cards; trashing 1 card is not allowed. I do feel that the -VP is needed, first to counterbalance it (it's quite powerful) and to make it interesting, since you have to trash it before the end of the game or suffer the penalty. I also think that the Pyramid is probably the most risky design left in the set.

Sarcophagus differs from Band of Misfits in that it triggers the on-gain and on-trash effects of the targeted cards, and runs down the Supply piles. Originally played the card multiple times (like a Procession that targeted the supply) until someone here pointed out that it was far too strong. So I hit it with the nerf-bat a lot of times, and now it gets rather close to Band of Misfits. Seeing as I have a bit more time waiting for Renaissance to launch, I might take it back to its roots and try variants on it.
Glad to help. For Boulder Trap (which I really like by the way) my wording was just so you could remove the 'from the supply' wording in the bottom half, since the player would no longer be gaining it, like with Masquerade. It would also mean that things like Watchtower would not affect it.
For Pyramid I missed the you may. Oops. and for Sarcophagus I didn't think about on-gain and on-trash abilities. I do think you should maybe try to make it less like BoM.
Also, you have both the old and new Archaeologists in the post now. Just thought you ought to now.
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