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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 46843 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #175 on: July 27, 2018, 09:40:40 am »
0

Tomb Raider is about 100% unusable without one (otherwise a cool card with a cool theme).

I'm confused. Playing Tomb Raider without attacks in the game makes your opponents reveal their hands and you gain a copy of a revealed Treasure.
Tomb Raider is also an attack, so it can always defend against other Tomb Raiders.

Adding a keyword ("War" or something - "Muster"?) isn't a bad way to do it, but then I'd likely need to add the keyword to three or so cards. The problem is that none of the other cards interact with Attack cards. Graveyard could have it just for funs, but the third card is a mystery. (Edit: says the guy with Trap cards on only one card.)

Aquila, I've had the same thought. But you're right, I'm not including Spoils in the set. Although it's maybe tempting to add a similar card into the set; or even explore having Shipwreck gain Discoveries regardless of whether they are or aren't in the game.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 10:59:26 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #176 on: July 27, 2018, 05:06:03 pm »
0

Well if you want to make it shipwreck gain discoveries then why don’t you add it as special setup similar to young witch. That way you will always have discoveries in every game with shipwreck. Just as an 11th kingdom supply pile.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 05:07:46 pm by ClouduHieh »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #177 on: July 28, 2018, 08:02:11 am »
+2

Jerk!

No really, I don't mind much and it's a valid question. You're also not going to like my answer, though.
My playgroup is not *that* good. In fact, they're probably bad-on-average. I'm probably the worst of the lot, to be honest. Some are stronger than others, but none are high level. It's why I'm here in the variants and fan cards forum; playtesting can only net me so much information. Theorycrafting and knowledge of high-level exploits are something my test group doesn't have. Your responses have been the lighthouse helping steer the ship away from the rocks.

That said, I am building the set for my test group. I can't understate that. I'm very unlikely to suddenly score a license from DXV and RGG, because I'm not the guy. So my end goal is to have something that my friends and I enjoy. That said, I also don't want to print cards that my playgroup likes now, but later realizes are basically unplayably bad. I'd rather not print physicals of 27 cards only to find out that in one year the set will only 'really be' 20 cards because 7 cards are garbage. Permanent garbage, since I'm unlikely to make second or third editions once I've printed it.

The concrete reason why I asked this question was this statement of yours:

I like Snake Charmer's attack. When I've tested it it's always been a good addition to the game, even though -- or especially because -- it's a double-edged sword.

My worry is that your playgroup might be underestimating how useful trashing those Estates and Coppers is to your opponents, similar to how players of first edition Dominion underestimated how much they helped other players by playing Thief. It might be that, if you don't take a lot of care to balance this well, in half a year nobody will ever want to get this card early on, because it helps opponents too much. So one outcome could be, if there's no other trasher, you will never get it, as it helps your opponents trash down for free, and if there is one, do you really want to use Snake Charmer if there's another trasher that helps you trash down without helping your ooponents, too? And if there's another Curser, of course I want to curse opponents as early as I can, so I'd never use Snake Charmer to do this, as it will help my opponents at first -  and after Curses are gone due to the other Curser, there's no reason to get Snake Charmer, either. The obvious comparison to this card is Torturer, which never just turns out useful for the other players. Snake Charmer is bad at the beginning, good for a short time, and then bad again (once Curses run out). This might make it a high skill card, or a high luck card, or unuseable in general, and I really don't know which exactly it is. I just know that if you make your attacks be actually harmful and friendly interactions to be useful, you end up with things easier to wrap your head around and/or balance. Not to say you can't have this puzzler, but make sure to playtest it plenty.

Going to reply to the others soonish.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #178 on: July 28, 2018, 08:34:50 am »
+1

I have to say, based on the existence of Riches I can only assume they are seeing trashing starting Coppers as a downside? I can't think of any other possible justification to that card...
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #179 on: July 28, 2018, 11:01:41 am »
+1

Yeah, Riches is absurdly good. Two Riches are a Province, one Riches is a Riches. There are 10 Riches, and you need no more than 6 (possibly 5) to get the majority of Provinces just by buying Riches. One thing they suck at is picking up Golds, but who needs 'em anyway?

Suggestion: Cost it at 5 and make it give 4 or cost it at 6 and make it give 5. This way one Riches can' t buy another.

Edit: Probably I'd like it best at 6$, just because 5$ makes getting it early so great. Even then it could still just give 4$, not 5$.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 01:00:06 pm by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #180 on: July 28, 2018, 01:27:09 pm »
+1

Yeah, Riches is absurdly good. Two Riches are a Province, one Riches is a Riches. There are 10 Riches, and you need no more than 6 (possibly 5) to get the majority of Provinces just by buying Riches. One thing they suck at is picking up Golds, but who needs 'em anyway?

Suggestion: Cost it at 5 and make it give 4 or cost it at 6 and make it give 5. This way one Riches can' t buy another.

That's not even really the big problem though, or well I guess it's more a symptom of the big problem? (The problem of it being completely absurd!!!) But like, you can just open with it and when you draw it you'll be able to afford literally anything you'd be interested in buying, apart from Platinum I guess, but a turn 3/4 inheritance wouldn't be particularly unlikely, to pick out the most absurd situation. But yeah it's like the single best card to bootstrap your deck and hit an early price point, oh and it trashes Coppers too? Yeah... It might be worth mentioning that the only other cards that can trash more than 2 Coppers per play and cost less than $5 are Chapel, Monastery and Doctor (Cemetery can trash 4, but on-gain makes it pretty different) .

I disagree about them being bad with Gold, or well, my quick non-optimised testing showed that Riches Big Money, which was basically 2 Riches+Silvers/Golds curb-stomps Smithy BM. So err Riches+Gold seems pretty viable to me basically, given that the bare-bones baseline of it is reasonable by itself and adding Actions to make it better is easy given its treasuriness. Well I guess it's more Riches+Gold is probably better than whatever non-Riches thing and Riches+not Gold is probably better than Riches+Gold, on average. Which I guess is what you were saying now that I reread what you said.

At $4 it would have to give +$1 and it's still be a great trasher, at +$2 it would basically still just be Moneylender but better so yeah +$1. I do think the below the line should make for a nice Copper trashing Treasure, but yeah giving +$4 too, absurd is a great word to describe it.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 01:29:42 pm by Gazbag »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #181 on: July 29, 2018, 02:41:51 am »
+1

I just realized that two Riches in play trash each other. Oops. I misunderstood that up to now.
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #182 on: July 29, 2018, 05:25:25 pm »
+1

Tomb Raider is about 100% unusable without one (otherwise a cool card with a cool theme).

I'm confused. Playing Tomb Raider without attacks in the game makes your opponents reveal their hands and you gain a copy of a revealed Treasure.
Tomb Raider is also an attack, so it can always defend against other Tomb Raiders.

Adding a keyword ("War" or something - "Muster"?) isn't a bad way to do it, but then I'd likely need to add the keyword to three or so cards. The problem is that none of the other cards interact with Attack cards. Graveyard could have it just for funs, but the third card is a mystery. (Edit: says the guy with Trap cards on only one card.)

Tomb Raider - Oops, you are correct! There goes all credibility on my future critiques. Now that I actually understand the card, it seems very interesting. Nice thematic choice too with the only two Treasure-Attacks in the game (Relic and Idol) being "Tomb Raider" like. Now it makes me wish your Artifact card was also an Attack purely for flavor. :)

War/Muster - Both cool names that fit the theme. I can see Graveyard having small, cool interactions with some different Attack cards. I think Tomb Raider is fine alone , but would be more interesting with other Attacks on the board. So that could be your three cards right there (including Stronghold). I'm still only loosely behind the idea for a new type that adds Attacks. Just brainstorming here in case you wanna go this route.

Riches - Hands down, this will be the best $4 cost on any board by a lot. If you don't incorporate it into your strategy some how I think you will loose 100% of the time. Beyond that though, if every player goes Riches, I think this could still reward smart play. Decisions like how many Riches to buy and when it is worth trashing a Riches for a Province are probably not that trivial. So if you're okay disregarding the play of most of the other Kingdom cards to keep Riches as is, I guess your only problem might be someone in your play group "solving/perfecting" their Riches strategy. As I believe most people enjoy Dominion for it's diversity of play, this may lead to some very disappointing games down the road.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #183 on: July 29, 2018, 09:28:04 pm »
+1

Well if wanted snake charmer to be more useful what if it it gave out cards worse than curse.
You would have to create a whole new card of course.

Like infested estate.

          -4V
This is worth +1V for
Every estate you have but
Not more than 0V.
———————————
If this is trashed gain 3 coppers.

I know truly evil card.
I guess we can add it to the bad idea section.

But hey want to make snake charmer more useful. They won’t at least want to trash those estates. And if they trash this they must gain 3 coppers. So they will be back to square one.
But at least they won’t lose any points as long as they have 4 estates they can all 12 infested estates and not lose a single point. But it would definitely slow down the game.

I don’t except anyone to like this card idea but me of course.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 09:30:48 pm by ClouduHieh »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #184 on: July 30, 2018, 05:02:07 am »
+1

Well if wanted snake charmer to be more useful what if it it gave out cards worse than curse.
You would have to create a whole new card of course.

Like infested estate.

          -4V
This is worth +1V for
Every estate you have but
Not more than 0V.
———————————
If this is trashed gain 3 coppers.

I know truly evil card.
I guess we can add it to the bad idea section.

But hey want to make snake charmer more useful. They won’t at least want to trash those estates. And if they trash this they must gain 3 coppers. So they will be back to square one.
But at least they won’t lose any points as long as they have 4 estates they can all 12 infested estates and not lose a single point. But it would definitely slow down the game.

I don’t except anyone to like this card idea but me of course.

Making the attack portion of a card that sometimes attacks and often helps other players more brutal does not remove the issue of the card often helping other players. It just makes the different outcomes of the same card more different.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #185 on: July 30, 2018, 02:10:38 pm »
+1

So where am I at at the moment?

I'm trying out Stronghold as always costing $7 and always playing itself as an attack; this brings in the question of "but what if there are no attacks"? Maybe it needs to add an attack pile at setup, but then that's crazy amounts of text.

Why don' t you just give it a fixed attack effect on gain? Saves a lot of rules trouble and is so much easier to balance.

Also, I will reiterate that this isn't a strong card, particularly not at 7. Sure, it can trash a card, but how often do you have meaningful amounts of junk in your deck when you reach 7? And now you can put any card in your hand - terminally. Need a Village? Well then, better play a Village first to play this and put a Village in your hand to not gain a single additional Action. Need terminal draw? Still play a Village first, or rather, play 2, so you can lose 2 Actions on that draw card. Yaay. So what are you going to grab with this, actually? The answer is: Treasure, preferably Gold. So, you pay 7 for a card that, under the right circumstances, terminally gives +3 and trashes a card. Maybe it should be called "Trade Route"  :P
Seriously though, this is really not that good. How about adding +1 Action? Sure, that's a steep step, but 7 is also a proud cost. And it's still "just" a cantrip trasher where you can choose both the card drawn and the card trashed.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #186 on: July 30, 2018, 02:31:22 pm »
0

There's a lot of good thoughts coming out here, some of them require extra thought.

Stronghold is probably best losing its play an Attack and going back to $5, unless I can find a good attack rule that's worth $7.

I'm seeing the logic on Snake Charmer, although I ask that you consider that Snake Charmer is intended to be played in batches of more than one, if you need to choose 2-3 cards to trash, is that more of a thing? Alternatively, I could make Snake Charmer make you choose between Actions and Curses. But that might not be enough.

Riches... gee.
I'd like to see a game with a few much stronger players than I playing Riches. Asper and I have been trying to coordinate some TTS but my schedule (and timezones) haven't made it possible yet.

For the record, my playtesters aren't *that* bad as to not know the value of shedding the starting cards; it's just that Riches tend to stop you from effectively getting an economy going if you're not careful. But perhaps the rest of you are so much better than we are that the card goes nuts. If that's the case I might consider making itself trash itself, too.


Edit: for the record, I'm not as whiny and wounded as that previous statement makes me sound :)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 02:38:27 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #187 on: July 31, 2018, 06:00:24 am »
+1

For the record, my playtesters aren't *that* bad as to not know the value of shedding the starting cards; it's just that Riches tend to stop you from effectively getting an economy going if you're not careful. But perhaps the rest of you are so much better than we are that the card goes nuts. If that's the case I might consider making itself trash itself, too.

As a baseline of economy with Riches, you can play one to pick up another. Pick up a third one. Collide two of them to buy a Province. Repeat. And that's just what a lousy player like me can think of, no engines or anything.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 06:02:53 am by Asper »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #188 on: July 31, 2018, 11:11:29 am »
0

I'll trial out Riches as a $6. Based on performance I may buff it if $6 makes it too weak.
Edit: Like, I get the problem with being able to run a deck that's just "collide Riches for the win". I'm not entirely sure that that strategy is too fast, but it works with a very, very predictable time, if your strat is just "buy all the Riches up, then collide them to get Provinces". If nobody else buys Riches you can get 5 provinces in a very predictable number of turns.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 01:32:37 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #189 on: July 31, 2018, 01:41:16 pm »
+2

Riches - What's the goal of the Treasure trashing portion of Riches? Is it a punishment to keep players from mass-buying Riches or is it to reward players with good, early Copper trashing? If it's the former, you can make it so you can't trash Copper and then maybe it's fine at $4 or $5. If it's the latter, well I'm not sure. :)

Fun Fact: Mint's on-buy, Treasure trashing is meant to be a penalty, but I think it is often regarded as a huge bonus to the card.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #190 on: July 31, 2018, 01:50:51 pm »
+2

Riches - What's the goal of the Treasure trashing portion of Riches? Is it a punishment to keep players from mass-buying Riches or is it to reward players with good, early Copper trashing? If it's the former, you can make it so you can't trash Copper and then maybe it's fine at $4 or $5. If it's the latter, well I'm not sure. :)

Fun Fact: Mint's on-buy, Treasure trashing is meant to be a penalty, but I think it is often regarded as a huge bonus to the card.

It's not regarded as a penalty on Mint. In the Secret History, Donald makes pretty clear that it's a penalty by first perception only.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #191 on: July 31, 2018, 01:58:03 pm »
+2

Riches - What's the goal of the Treasure trashing portion of Riches? Is it a punishment to keep players from mass-buying Riches or is it to reward players with good, early Copper trashing? If it's the former, you can make it so you can't trash Copper and then maybe it's fine at $4 or $5. If it's the latter, well I'm not sure. :)

Fun Fact: Mint's on-buy, Treasure trashing is meant to be a penalty, but I think it is often regarded as a huge bonus to the card.

So the actual goal is to make a Treasure that "is so good that it devalues all other money." It's based on the story of Mansa Musa, the king of Mali, who was so rich that he couldn't fathom his wealth. He went on a pilgrimage through Northern Africa giving away gifts of money to all the people he met, in reverse amount to their wordly wealth. In some cases he gave beggars more wealth than the gross national product of the country he was in. Consequently he devastated North Africa's economy singlehandedly. He's pictured on the card; it so happens that the artist on my cards is also the artist that did Mansa Musa as a mod in Civ V.

I am aware that Mint was originally planned as a penalty but is actually a bonus. It's actually something that has salvaged the card which is actually pretty weak if you don't use it as a trasher.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #192 on: July 31, 2018, 05:39:25 pm »
0

Quote
A Treasure that "is so good that it devalues all other money"

This immediately made me think that Riches should make all non-Riches worth 0. Then I realized it couldn't do that, but it could give - 1 coin per Treasure in play. From there I arrived at Poor House...
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #193 on: July 31, 2018, 10:06:46 pm »
0

Quote
A Treasure that "is so good that it devalues all other money"

This immediately made me think that Riches should make all non-Riches worth 0. Then I realized it couldn't do that, but it could give - 1 coin per Treasure in play. From there I arrived at Poor House...

Exactly. Arguably Riches and Pyramid are very close to each other's design space, too :(
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #194 on: August 01, 2018, 12:09:40 am »
0

My current thinking on Snake Charmer is that perhaps the attack should be "trashes a card costing $1 or more" or maybe "$3 or more".
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #195 on: August 02, 2018, 10:01:13 am »
0

Back on the subject of Riches, I've been thinking of running simulations* on it. It's slow as just a "Buy nothing but Riches and Provinces" strategy (17-26 turns to get 5 Provinces,) but then maybe there are cases where, say, maybe Workshop + Riches (Edit: it's faster, about 13ish) is broken OP. Also I found that if you introduce Platinums and Colonies, it's pretty easy to collide two Riches and at least one Copper or +$1 Action to get a Platinum while simultaneously removing lesser Treasures from the mix.

I've also tested Riches at $6, that makes it almost too slow to use; the only major benefit here is the aforementioned Platinum strategy.

Bear in mind as well that the thing with Riches is that you can't play it on the same turn as you play any treasures (Golds, Platinums) that you might actually want to keep.

In practice, though, the main feedback I've got with it recently is that it sort of feels like a Chapel that you can later get rid of by buying a Province. Possibly this is super strong.

*Note, these are manual simulations using python code, not the cool automated "play 10,000 games" simulations. I'm looking into how to set up Riches as a card on one of those.

I haven't yet tried the "cost it at 6 and make it give $5" angle yet, that might be better.


In other news, I'm trying the following crazy ideas:

Quote
Shipwreck - Action - $2
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
Gain a Discovery onto the bottom of your deck. If you can't, trash this and gain a Treasure onto the bottom of your deck.
Setup: Add the Discovery Kingdom pile to the Supply
I'm also testing replacing "gain a Treasure" with "gain a non-Victory card" or "a card costing $6 or less." This also might need to cost $3.

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $4
-1 VP
When you discard this, the player to your left gains it.
-
When you gain this from the Supply, gain a Silver onto your deck.
The "gain a Silver onto your deck" all but fixes the drawback of randomly finding early Boulder Traps. This version also rewards you for building engines to help give it away more effectively. Antiquities as a whole tends to play towards some sort of Big Money ("Green and Gold") strategies so I'm fairly okay with this.
The method of giving it away seems to be lacking somewhat, although it works. One of the cool things about this version is it's better to give away the trap than to trash it; we had some fun coming up with strategies to most effectively pin the trap on the other player. The best, of course, is to make sure that you pick up your whole deck on the final turn :P.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 10:02:15 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #196 on: August 03, 2018, 06:55:08 pm »
0

So 26 turns for 5 provs might not sound too impressive, but a strategy just buying Moneylenders or Spice Merchants will never actually hit $8. So it's actually kind of unheard of for such a good trasher to be able to put up those kinds of results. You kind of have to frame these speed tests in the context of what other utility the card provides I guess, or something like that. I mean they aren't exactly representative of a real game of Dominion.

 
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #197 on: August 07, 2018, 09:39:26 am »
0

So, Renaissance was just announced... This might change everything again.
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #198 on: August 07, 2018, 09:58:42 am »
+2

So, Renaissance was just announced... This might change everything again.

Yeah, you should probably rename Artifact.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #199 on: August 07, 2018, 02:43:56 pm »
0

So, Renaissance was just announced... This might change everything again.

Yeah, you should probably rename Artifact.

Just call it Artefact, boom problem solved.
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