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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 46797 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2018, 02:41:19 pm »
0

Okay, so I think the question I have to posit is this:

What about Diplomat?
If I currently have a hand with 10 cards in it (because reasons -- you can call me the Hound Mastaaa!) and someone attacks me, can I actually reveal the same Diplomat like, 5 times?

Also as per Donald's Secret History of Diplomat:
The bottom originally gave a Silver when you gained or trashed a card. You had to discard it, so you couldn't gain the pile instantly (a once-per-turn approach was another option).

This implies that discarding the card breaks the cycle.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2018, 02:55:00 pm »
0

To answer my own question (yeah, I shouldn't soliloquize in the thread, sorry)

I believe based on the language of the Secret History of Diplomat, the following rules are in play:

1) Multiple Reactions can react to a single valid trigger;
2) Reaction cards that enter the hand (either by drawing or by "unrevealing" a card revealed from your hand) during or as a result of Reaction effects to a trigger can also React to that same trigger.

So in the case of Diplomat with 10 cards:
1) Diplomat reveals in response to Attack trigger.
2) Diplomat is resolved, you draw up to 12 cards and then discard down to 9.
3) Diplomat enters your hand.
4) Now you can react with Diplomat or any other copies of Diplomat or any other react-to-attack Reactions you drew as part of step 2.
LOOP)

Eventually you get out of the loop because you have only 4 cards in hand.

However, if this is the case, and my logic is good, Agora is fine and Token is fine.


Unfortunately while doing this research I found DXV saying that Stronghold's reaction is too weak to live on a $3 card and Stronghold is a $5. ARRGH.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2018, 04:09:49 pm »
+1

First, yes, you can totally reveal the same Diplomat any number of times as long as the condition is fulfilled.

Second, the discarding option mentioned in the secret history is clearly a mirror of e.g. Market Square (as somebody else mentioned in the other thread). You can not discard Market Square from your hand when it's not in your hand anymore.

The important thing is that Diplomat is not an infinite loop. Every time you reveal it, you lose a card, up to the point where you don't get anything out of it anymore.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 04:11:02 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2018, 02:56:45 am »
+1

Anyhow, yes, it seems that Agora and Token are both fine. Apparently the ruling is that only reactions from spaces that are non-public can be revealed multiple times.
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ipofanes

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2018, 06:59:39 am »
+1

The important thing is that Diplomat is not an infinite loop. Every time you reveal it, you lose a card, up to the point where you don't get anything out of it anymore.

That should mean it is the ultimate Tunnel/Faithful Hound enabler (from a standard hand size) with a search space of 15 cards, if I counted correctly. Of course this comes at the price of effectively missing your next turn.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #105 on: June 29, 2018, 04:54:31 pm »
0

That settles it, Agora and Token can stay how they are.

Stronghold bottom..... ergh. I'm very tempted to make it play itself as a reaction to attacks, probably *after* the attack is resolved.

Edit: can scam the language off of Royal Carriage/Coin of the Realm like: "Directly after another player finishes playing an Attack card, you may play this from your hand."
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 06:54:52 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2018, 03:02:33 pm »
0

So the other thing I'm working on now is a version of Pyramids that no longer curses you but instead makes Victory cards worth -1 VP to a min of 0VP. I'm having challenges testing this for balance, though. It should be very powerful but not enough to take over the game completely, and it should make you lose if you can't trash it and invest into it too heavily.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2018, 10:09:33 pm »
+1

That sounds cool.

What if pyramids was a victory card worth a lot of points, but having it decreased the score on the provinces.

Like this.

Pyramid


          8V
—————————
For each pyramid you have at the
End of the game province is worth
-1V less, but not less than 0V.
When You gain this each other
player takes 3 debt tokens.
Cost 9 Victory-Defeat


When those pyramids were built the Egyptians received all the glory. However the slaves received nothing but, lots of sweat. So shouldn’t pyramid be a card that creates more work for the other players. And pyramids take a lot of space up. Plus I noticed you didn’t have any victory cards.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 10:44:28 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2018, 10:36:02 pm »
+1

Now for shipwreck why didn’t you just do it similar to guilds. You may overpay for this, if you overpaid by 2 gain a gold, and a copper. Then you could just do cost 2+ (with the + on the top right of course)
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2018, 10:39:30 pm »
+1

I like stoneworks


Trash provinces and duchies and gain victory tokens the same amount that those cards are worth.

I’m sure I mentioned this but I love snake charmer, a choice attack. Especially if they don’t have anything worthwhile to trash. And if you play it twice in a turn you get a big benefit.

The new stronghold is cool too. It gives more reasons for players to buy attack cards.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 10:43:03 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2018, 10:51:22 pm »
+1

I like mission house

Gain up to 6 victory tokens and then after that you can still play it as if it was a lost city.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2018, 04:31:40 am »
+1

Pyramid


          8V
—————————
For each pyramid you have at the
End of the game province is worth
-1V less, but not less than 0V.
When You gain this each other
player takes 3 debt tokens.
Cost 9 Victory-Defeat

This has A LOT of issues. First, the VP clause alters the value of another VP card, which Dominion cards never do (see Duke). A less wordy version would be:

Quote
Worth 8VP minus the number of Provinces in your deck, down to 0VP.

Second, what is that type for? It doesn't do anything, does it?

Third, the card is much, much better than Province, like Colony is, but emptying the pile does not end the game, unlike Colony. Even worse, it actually discourages ending the game, because Provinces now are worth barely any points. So, what do you do? You load up on Duchies and try to end the game on piles. Your opponent who got less Pyramids than you now is behind and also needs to load up on Duchies because they can't compete just with Provinces. Just that, damn, they got all that debt. The result: A player who leads on Pyramids more or less gets an insurmountable point difference (as you can't go for both Pyramids an Provinces effectively), but the game still drags on while people stuff their decks with even more dead cards. Yay.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2018, 10:42:16 am »
0

The Pyramid right now is being difficult to balance, lol.

It's
Quote
Pyramid - Action - $5
+$5
+1 Buy
You may trash 2 cards from your hand.
-
At the end of the game, Victory cards are worth -1VP, but not less than 0VP.
Seems like a lot of power all in a $5 card. But in practice, it seems to not be powerful enough, although the test cases I've tried haven't all been good test cases.
I tried buffing it up to give $6 instead of $5. At that point it became hugely OP, I got 7 of the 8 provinces in a 2-player game where the other player was not allowed to buy Pyramids. Even with the drawback (I bought 4 Pyramids over the course of the game, but managed to trash down to 1 remaining, which is sort of the point) I had so many more points that I won. Even if I failed to trash any of the Pyramids I would have 14 VP vs 11VP (they still had Estates) so it was OP OP.

Back down to +$5 I am struggling to edge the VP pile. More tests are needed but I may need to price it at $4. Trying to keep it out of Death Cart's design space. Ofc it started out as a clone of Death Cart that gave you Curses instead of Ruins, so there's that problem.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2018, 01:12:16 pm »
0

Update on Stronghold:

After thinking around "how do I make this card seem war-like enough to justify the art" I have hit on this disgusting essence of pure cancer:

Quote
Stronghold - Action - $5 or $7
Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile, trash a card from it, and put a card from it into your hand.
-
When you buy this for $7, +1 Buy, return to your Action phase, and replay each Attack card you have in play.

It's evil.

On that note, I've been adding the Variable Cost rule to a few cards; I will have to explain it in the rules.

The short version is something like this:
1) a card with multiple costs costs all of those costs for the purposes of targeting by other cards. i.e., a card costing $2 and $4 costs less than $3 and also costs more than $3. So Dame Natalie could gain a Shipwreck and also can trash Shipwreck.
2) If a card allows you to gain a card based on the cost of the variable cost card, you pick one card that satisfies the rule. So using Upgrade on Shipwreck allows you to gain either a card costing exactly $3 or one costing exactly $5. The player who makes the choice gets to decide what you're getting, so another player with Swindler can swindle Shipwreck into either a $2 or $4 cost card.
3) When you buy a card with variable costs, you get to choose which cost you're paying. Both cards with printed variable costs will have a "if you buy for $(more expensive cost)" rule.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2018, 09:31:29 pm »
+1

There are lots of victory cards in this game besides colony that are better than province. And I tend to like a longer game anyway. I dont play to Win. I play to have fun. Playing the cards is fun and I get carried away, in fact when the game ends abruptly that irks me. I don’t mind losing just as long as I enjoyed the cards I played with. So a long game is what I look forward to. And if I happen to win great. Anyways there are lots of victory cards that work with my style and tend to be better than province. Like fairgrounds, vineyard, and gardens. With tournament in the game I tend to get 8Vs from fairgrounds. And I’ve been known to get 10Vs from vineyard. So it doesn’t bug me if there was a victory that reduced province to dust.

Yeah I’m sure that version of pyramid would give one player a huge advantage. And maybe it needs to be tweaked too. That was just a rough draft out of the blue idea anyway.

Oh and defeat is my replacement for saying curse. I have come up with my own card ideas and have 3 different defeat cards. Defeat is opposite of victory. Curse is not opposite of victory.

And since there’s not really Cards you can buy other than curse out there, I figured I’d come up with my own. Now if you think no one would purposely buy a card with a minus score. There are definitely some who would if there was a huge benefit. Check out my alchemy ideas. On my alchemy idea forum thing. There you find the mad scientist. Is it worth buying judge for yourself. After all you could probably always trash it later anyway.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2018, 09:37:49 pm »
+1

Oh nerai,

I had a thought for stronghold. You said you wanted to make it more attack themed. And your recent idea may be evil. But it’s not the most evil.

You could always make it similar to possession!

Now that would be evil. Evil lol!
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2018, 09:50:47 pm »
+1

Like for instance if you bought stronghold for 7$ then you could take control of the player to your lefts turn. Where you can’t play actions and must go to the buy phase (unlike the real possession where you can play their actions.) Buy a card for them you may gain a copy of it. So for instance they had a weak treasure hand. You could buy a curse for them and not gain it. Or if they had for instance 3 golds in their hand. You could buy them a province, and gain a province. And of course if you were lucky enough to have a treasure in their hand with an extra buy, like charm. You give em 2 curses. Now that would be evil. Maybe even worse than possession. Or get a good card and still give em a curse.

Like I said out of the blue idea.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2018, 02:25:51 am »
+1

ClouduHieh, you might want to read the fan card creation guide and also Donald X' secret history of Dominion.

Neither Wineyard, nor Fairgrounds, nor Gardens, nor any other Victory card or even Landmark make Province worth less than it is by default. The major fact is, they don't keep the game from ending. And yeah, you can like any type of game you want, even games that require players to do pointless stuff for several rounds just to end it even though the winner is already clear. Your individual preference doesn't make this an enjoyable experience for the general public, though.

Anyhow, this is Nerai's thread, so I'd prefer discussing his cards here first and foremost.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:06:12 am by Asper »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2018, 03:09:33 am »
+1

The only reason why I thought that I’d have a victory that made province worthless was nerai had an idea to make other victories worthless ( unless I think that’s what he meant) so I just picked on province in particular is all.

Like I said an out of the blue idea. Besides isn’t there a huge thread for really bad card ideas anyway. Which means people I have come up with bad card ideas on a multitude of threads.

No harm in adding a few. To the already hundreds.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2018, 04:37:04 am »
+1

The only reason why I thought that I’d have a victory that made province worthless was nerai had an idea to make other victories worthless ( unless I think that’s what he meant) so I just picked on province in particular is all.

Like I said an out of the blue idea. Besides isn’t there a huge thread for really bad card ideas anyway. Which means people I have come up with bad card ideas on a multitude of threads.

No harm in adding a few. To the already hundreds.

Point taken. However, I don't see how Nerai implied that Pyramid would be a Victory card. I think what he had in mind was something like this:

Quote
Pyramid, Action, 5$
+5$
+1 Buy
---
At the end of the game, (however implemented), your VP cards are worth 1 VP less, down to 0 VP.

Regardless of how it's implemented, that version does NOT make Province skippable - Province is still the best Victory card to get and Pyramid is just a stepping stone there that you'd rather get rid of before the game ends. Which Pyramid itself helps you do, too.

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 08:15:28 am by Asper »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2018, 11:47:04 am »
0

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).
You know, Asper, my name has the letter i twice, NeIraI. :)

Jokes aside, this would have actually fixed the original Pyramid design, if it gave everyone else +2VP whenever you used it instead of gaining you two Curse cards. If I can't land this version I may go back to that. Balance would be different because it wouldn't junk you anymore but it also wouldn't have an upper cap on how bad things can get.
The same could be true of the other Curse gainer in the set, Grave Watcher, but that one I think is okay.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 11:48:13 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2018, 12:51:36 pm »
+1

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).
You know, Asper, my name has the letter i twice, NeIraI. :)

Oopsy... Sorry about that.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2018, 03:34:24 pm »
0

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).
You know, Asper, my name has the letter i twice, NeIraI. :)

Oopsy... Sorry about that.
Lol no worries. This happens allll the time. Or people call me Neira.

I am happy to hear of the possibly +VP solution for Pyramids, will see if I can land the current idea, though.
Edit: the good news is I can test both versions at the same time, by having users get the +2VP and set them aside in a special place, then at the end of the game evaluate the overall effect on score of the VPs vs the -VP penalty. For sake of completeness I can also try +1VP and "at the end of the game, VP cards are worth -1VP but not less than 1VP" which may be a direction I go even though it actually then rewards buying VP cards that are otherwise useless. But not much.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:43:18 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2018, 01:34:57 pm »
0

By the way, complaining about that Tunnel thing, I totally forgot to remark on Agora itself. It's basically a Festival that traded its buy for a Reaction which allows you to discard it for benefit while losing no more than 1 Action (compared to playing Agora over that Silver). It also allows you to gain Silver to discard attacks or other interactions that discard cards, but this immediately poses the question why you would want larger amounts of Silvers in an engine deck - or a Village in a deck full of Silvers.

My gut feeling is that this is in general weaker than Festival. Festival's unique effect helps building an engine. Agora's unique effect jinders an engine. I don't really see it being good outside of discard-for-benefit strategies.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2018, 10:41:03 pm »
0

Yeah, Asper, I agree that it's probably weaker than Festival. The $5 cost might be a mistake vs. $4. It's a throwback to the silver being a "good idea" and existing as a defense vs attacks.

I *could* try throw in a bonus for silvers, like if it gave you +$2, and +$1 to the first Silver you play, like Merchant.

Also, I decided to rework Profiteer, since I found the Reaction part clunky. I tried Choose One, and that was even worse. So right now I'm trying this out:

Quote
Profiteer - Action $4
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Cards with the same name as that one cost $1 less this turn (but not less than $0.)
-
When this is in play, cards in your hand and deck cost $0 or $1 more.

Two things to point out: one, "Cards in your hand and deck" means specifically if you play a trash-for-benefit card, or say a Patrician, the cards in your deck count as more expensive. Screws up Sages, though.

However, this also makes use of my variable cost mechanic to make the cards in your deck and hand have multiple costs, so you can break the game with upgrades.

Time's running short for testing, though, so please give me feedback, especially feedback of the "this will break the game because _____" kind.
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