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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 46793 times)

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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2018, 03:41:05 pm »
+1

Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I feel like I'm missing a crucial detail in the Agora Silver gaining discussion. Was there a concern about this gaining unlimited Silvers to hand, or is Agora designed to do just that? This quote makes it seem like the latter.

It was designed to gain a single Silver. But the card never gets covered up, thus never loses track of itself, thus may in its current form be revealable again and again from the discard pile, where it expects itself to be. The wording would technically have to be changed.

I mostly wrote the caveat of not being sure because no official card does this, so my reasoning is an amalgation and extrapolation from existing cards.

Thanks for the clarification! I didn't expect it would be designed to draw the entire Silver deck, but for some reason felt compelled to check. My fix should solve any possible issues then. Breaking "Gain a Silver to your hand" into "Gain a Silver. If you did, put it into your hand." makes sure it has a brief stop in the discard to cover up Agora.

A card that could draw the entire Silver pile would be interesting though! ;P
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2018, 03:49:49 pm »
0

Token is weird.

You can’t play treasures during your action phase.

So why draw a card and then discard a card during buy phase, unless your hoping to get a better treasure card to discard a victory or something.

Also it needs to be a Treasure-Reaction. Because your reacting when it gets discarded. To get that +1 treasure.

I think you about summed it up. Seems kind of like a betting game. If you play Token and draw another Token, do you play it safe and discard it for +$1 Coin or risk it and play it. Seems decent on paper. Cheaper and thus a lot more spammable than Venture, but your deck needs to be much cleaner.

I also agree that this should be a Treasure-Reaction card.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2018, 02:45:58 am »
0

And I think you would be creating the first yellow-Blue card. Cause I don’t think there’s a treasure-reaction out there. Unless it’s in a fan based expansion I haven’t seen yet.
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mameluke

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2018, 02:47:52 am »
0

Fool's Gold?
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2018, 02:54:06 am »
0

Fool's Gold?

Yes, Fool's Gold is the only Treasure-Reaction and boy should there be more! Strictly speaking from a cool-banner point of view.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2018, 09:31:54 pm »
0

Oh yeah I almost forgot about fools gold. They surely fooled me.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2018, 06:16:45 am »
0

Mission House is strictly better than Lost City.
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Gubump

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2018, 02:52:00 pm »
0

Mission House is strictly better than Lost City.

No, it isn't. Mission House only gives +2 Actions if you have at least 5 VP tokens. Otherwise, it's +2 Cards and +1 VP at best.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2018, 03:18:47 pm »
0

Wow, this thread has exploded during my sick time away!

Couple of thoughts: First off as I near completion I am blown away by all of the support. At some point I have to "launch into space" and print physicals and say the set is done. Catching issues before that point is great. The worst thing (which is going to be inevitable) will be having a card that I can't play with because of something I missed. I'd like that to happen with as few cards as possible. Even if the set contains Boulder Traps ;)

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

Token is supposed to be a Treasure-Reaction. Somehow I didn't render it as such. Oh well, stay tuned to the album because I just received the updated art from Jan Boruta; I'll render it as a Treasure-Reaction this time.

Finally, Holunder9, I'm going to get all pointlessly semantic on you and say "Mission House" is not strictly better than Lost City because the meaning of the phrase strictly better than is that if you draw a Venn diagram of every balance benefit that Lost City offers and every benefit Mission House offers, Mission House totally eclipses Lost City. This simply isn't true. Lost City costs $5 and starts its lifetime as +2 Cards +2 Actions. Mission House costs $5 and starts out its life as some weird love child of Moat and Monument. So the diagrams overlap a lot but Lost City has things going for it that Mission House doesn't. Now, of course in a game with good VP generation -- say, one with positive Landmarks, or with Dig, Mission House does become strictly better than Lost City in a real hurry.

Besides that totally pointless semantics thing, again I really appreciate the feedback. Right now, I am pretty okay with the relative balance of MH vs LC. The question is whether LC is OP, I've seen some threads implying this. It's not a good idea to balance against an OP card if you can help it.

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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2018, 03:28:43 pm »
0

Mission House is strictly better than Lost City.

No, it isn't. Mission House only gives +2 Actions if you have at least 5 VP tokens. Otherwise, it's +2 Cards and +1 VP at best.
True that, I misread the otherwise. Still looks too good though, as engine piece it is initially better than Monument and later it becomes better than Lost City. Perhaps changing the vanilla stuff, making it initially +2 Actions and  +1 VP, would nerf it enough.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2018, 04:39:24 pm »
0

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

No. In your new wording you could arguably gain infinite Silvers even if they went to your discard pile. You want to discard the card, so you reveal it. Now you want to discard the card, so you reveal it. The point is that you need to make sure that by resolving the reaction, it becomes either impossible or pointless to reveal it again.

Kudasai provided a great solution. The card will lose track of itself, and no player will ever have to think about it.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2018, 04:45:36 pm »
0

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

No. In your new wording you could arguably gain infinite Silvers even if they went to your discard pile. You want to discard the card, so you reveal it. Now you want to discard the card, so you reveal it. The point is that you need to make sure that by resolving the reaction, it becomes either impossible or pointless to reveal it again.

Kudasai provided a great solution. The card will lose track of itself, and no player will ever have to think about it.

You're right. The issue is Token, which has the same problem, but is +$1 instead of gain a silver, so it's even worse! Technically based on the "reveal as many times as you want if it isn't covered" logic, Token is "if you discard this, get infinite money". :( Kudasai's solution doesn't work in that case.

I'd like to have the two have similar wordings if I can figure out how to word it.

Edit: how does Caravan Guard and Trader avoid this?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:05:37 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2018, 05:12:23 pm »
0

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

No. In your new wording you could arguably gain infinite Silvers even if they went to your discard pile. You want to discard the card, so you reveal it. Now you want to discard the card, so you reveal it. The point is that you need to make sure that by resolving the reaction, it becomes either impossible or pointless to reveal it again.

Kudasai provided a great solution. The card will lose track of itself, and no player will ever have to think about it.

You're right. The issue is Token, which has the same problem, but is +$1 instead of gain a silver, so it's even worse! Technically based on the "reveal as many times as you want if it isn't covered" logic, Token is "if you discard this, get infinite money". :( Kudasai's solution doesn't work in that case.

I'd like to have the two have similar wordings if I can figure out how to word it.

Edit: how does Caravan Guard and Trader avoid this?

Caravan Guard is played from your hand, making it leave your hand and disabling you to play it from your hand again. Trader can be revealed infinite times, but as with Moat and Secret Chamber, that does nothing you don't get the first time.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:13:30 pm by Asper »
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2018, 05:19:14 pm »
0

Is there, like, a place to see the latest texts? There doesn't seem to be a link in the first post or anything like that.

What's all this about an on-discard Reaction having infinite-reveal issues? How is it different from Tunnel?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2018, 05:40:48 pm »
0

Hey, LastFootnote, I updated the OP with a link to the imgur album.

Of course, it would help if I did all of the updates that need to be done based on the feedback I've received via reddit.
Edit: I will endeavor to fix this after work. I'll let you know when the latest texts are done.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:53:44 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2018, 05:45:31 pm »
0

Is there, like, a place to see the latest texts? There doesn't seem to be a link in the first post or anything like that.

What's all this about an on-discard Reaction having infinite-reveal issues? How is it different from Tunnel?

Short explanation: Tunnel gets covered up, so it loses track of itself.

Long explanation: One could argue that a reaction on discarding, similar to on-gain effects, happens when the card is in your discard pile, and as Reactions can be revealed any number of times on a trigger, a card could be revealed from your discard pile infinite times if its reaction effect doesn't keep you from doing that. Assuming that to reveal a card you have to move it, this is not possible for Tunnel as long as its Reaction has any effect.

Edit: Now that I think about it... Does the Gold land on top of Tunnel or is Tunnel "un-revealed" and returned to the pile only after that?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:48:37 pm by Asper »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2018, 06:18:44 pm »
0

That new Stronghold seems reasonable to me on first glance. I guess it comes down to how good putting any card in your deck into your hand is. It seems strong in money to me, so I guess it depends on how useful it is alongside Villages. Well my guess is that it's strong at least, if that makes any sense...
I'm not sure whether the reaction works with Remodelling though, I think because it prevents the trash you wouldn't gain a card? Not sure on that, or was that the intention?

Looking through the album there are a few things that stick out:

Inspector could/should say "discard 2 cards from your hand, revealing them." to match with Shepherds wording.

Pharaoh needs to specify where the cards are trashed from.

Riches is still giving $3 more than it should. Seriously, this a powerful Copper trasher, why is it giving +$4? Just compare it to Moneylender, it's basically better in every way?

Shipwreck's twin cost thing is probably confusing with a lot of cards. It could probably just ask you to pay an extra $2 when you buy it or something?

I'd suggest a different name for Token, just because Tokens are already things in Dominion. I guess it'd have to fit the art though.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2018, 06:47:41 pm »
0

I'm not going to get to the new wording renders tonight, so instead I will give read-only access to the major design doc. The tab you care about is called "Cheatsheet."

No, I'm not making Dominion: Invention any time soon. Or ever. I swear. Please, make this stop.

Edit: I'm not rebuilding Adventures, either. Seriously, if you look in other tabs other than Cheatsheet there's a good chance that you will see dark things in the recesses of my mind that scare me. And also some of the lifetimes of these cards that are downright hilarious.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 06:51:15 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2018, 06:55:36 pm »
+1

It goes against all other, official Reaction cards, but could you simply say the following?

Agora - "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it once to gain a Silver to your hand."
Token - "When you discard this during your turn, if it's not Clean-up, you may reveal it once for +1 Coin."

I don't see an issue with it, but I'm sure someone else will. :P

Is there, like, a place to see the latest texts? There doesn't seem to be a link in the first post or anything like that.

What's all this about an on-discard Reaction having infinite-reveal issues? How is it different from Tunnel?

Short explanation: Tunnel gets covered up, so it loses track of itself.

Long explanation: One could argue that a reaction on discarding, similar to on-gain effects, happens when the card is in your discard pile, and as Reactions can be revealed any number of times on a trigger, a card could be revealed from your discard pile infinite times if its reaction effect doesn't keep you from doing that. Assuming that to reveal a card you have to move it, this is not possible for Tunnel as long as its Reaction has any effect.

Edit: Now that I think about it... Does the Gold land on top of Tunnel or is Tunnel "un-revealed" and returned to the pile only after that?

This is the order in the online version:
(1) Play a card that discards
(2) Discard Tunnel
(3) React with Tunnel from the discard
(4) Tunnel returns to the discard
(5) Gain a Gold to your discard

In the end, Tunnel and Gold are in your discard with Gold being on top. I can't say for sure, but I believe Tunnel could be revealed infinitely if the Gold went straight into your hand.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 06:59:28 pm by Kudasai »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2018, 07:36:27 pm »
+1

If you had an empty Gold pile then Tunnel wouldn't be covered up. Of course it wouldn't do anything then anyway so revealing infinitely would just be like revealing Moat infinitely to an attack. You could even get fancy and empty Silvers and then react to the Gold gain with Trader, that wouldn't cover up Tunnel either and could matter I guess if there was another card that reacted when you would gain something, which will never happen but still!
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2018, 03:40:12 am »
0

If you had an empty Gold pile then Tunnel wouldn't be covered up. Of course it wouldn't do anything then anyway so revealing infinitely would just be like revealing Moat infinitely to an attack. You could even get fancy and empty Silvers and then react to the Gold gain with Trader, that wouldn't cover up Tunnel either and could matter I guess if there was another card that reacted when you would gain something, which will never happen but still!

I highly doubt there even is reasonable design space for a "would gain" without an "instead". Why would you not just make that on gain? And if the "instead" is there, that's how the infinite reveals end.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2018, 03:52:57 am »
0

Huh, wait. In a game with Possession, Tunnel never gets covered up because Possession is on would-gain...

I'm not sure whether that means my reasoning is off or whether this is just a "deal with it" rule (such as Transmute not costing - 1 coin and a Potion after Bridge, even though that's not less than 0 Coins). But yeah,apparently that's fine.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 03:54:01 am by Asper »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2018, 09:11:47 am »
0

I guess a wording that might work with both Agora and Token is "If you would discard this, you may [reveal it from your hand for +$1][reveal it from your to gain a Silver to your hand] instead. If you do, put this into your discard pile."

Wordy as heck.

Other way around (for Agora) would be "exchange this for a Silver, putting it in your hand. If you do, gain an Agora." but that's just crazy talk.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2018, 11:47:13 am »
0

I started a discussion on Tunnel's Reaction here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18751.msg760375#msg760375
Might be interesting, although tangential.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2018, 01:08:15 pm »
0

I started a discussion on Tunnel's Reaction here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18751.msg760375#msg760375
Might be interesting, although tangential.

Asper, thanks for championing this. I'm going to try contribute what I can, because I think the result of that discussion will be the final word on Agora and Token.
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