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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 4455 times)

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Thanar

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 04:07:34 pm »
0

Thanks for these great cards. I'm planning to print out the whole set.

Will there eventually be a place where all the cards will be available in hi-res and with a consistent image size? That would make it much easier for me to combine the images and print them out on my printer.

Currently, most of the hi-res images from twitter are jpg with some as png (Shipwreck, Stronghold, Tomb Raider).
For Moundbuilder Village, I somehow managed to get it in both jpg and png (not sure how).

The image sizes are also not consistent:
 
Moundbuilder Village.jpg , Tomb Raider.png and the rest of the .jpgs are 1336x2048
Moundbuilder Village.png , Shipwreck.png and Stronghold.png are 1403x2151


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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 06:39:33 pm »
0

Thanar, thank you so much, that's incredible!

I'm interested in how you plan to print them; I'm also planning to print them out. Maybe we should compare notes.
The cards will all be available on my Imgur at some point. If that is not acceptable, PM me when I finish the reveals (when the rules + app are out) and I'll send you a zip with the originals.

I'm a bit worried about the size things. Maybe it's this forum vs Twitter that is the issue? Anyhow I'll do my best to make sure at some point they are consistent. When I link the full album for public consumption, let me know if they are inconsistent. I'll want to make sure they are as good as possible.
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singletee

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 07:29:33 pm »
+1

Oh man, other secret history. Sarcophagus used to not have a limit on the cost of the card in the supply that you used it with. Then we tested it with Hunting Grounds.

It's still ultra broken. Playing Sarcophagus with 2 cost reduction active lets you gain and play the entire Sarcophagus pile, then a bunch of copies of whatever other actions. Even using it on a plain cantrip makes it Lost City. And it curses opponents?

Thanar

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2018, 07:32:59 pm »
+1

Yes, I noticed the Sarcophagus-pile-draining ability with $2 cost reduction as well. I think a good solution for that issue is to make Sarcophagus cost an appropriate amount of debt, instead of a coin cost, eliminating the possibility of playing 2 of itself, no matter what $ cost reduction is in effect.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 07:35:57 pm by Thanar »
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singletee

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2018, 07:34:48 pm »
+1

Yes, I noticed the pile-draining ability with $2 cost reduction as well. I think a good solution for it is to make Sarcophagus cost an appropriate amount of debt, instead of a coin cost, eliminating the possibility of gaining 2 of itself, no matter what $ cost reduction is in effect.

Yeah, either that, or go the Vampire route, and just have it specify non-Sarcophagus.

Fragasnap

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2018, 08:31:59 pm »
+2

Aquifer is a Peddler with a drawback (being that it's only non-terminal for other Aquifers) that comes with an extra benefit of a rarely relevant Reaction--especially since it can only be triggered during your turn which strongly limits the number of cards that can activate it.
Peddler is typically valued at about $4.5, and I think the drawback is significant enough to pull it down to $3-ish. That Reaction is not worth much. I'd guess Aquifer is weak.

Artifact gives a lot of really hard to math options since you have to think about the cost of the Treasure, the $ production of the Treasure, and that Artifact itself produces $1.
It's options come out to be: $1; or $2, gain a Copper; or if $>=$2 then $0, gain a Silver; or if $>=$5 -$2 gain a Gold; and I won't bother with what gaining additional Artifacts will look like since it puts you back in the loop. I don't think it's all that strong either, so I'm not sure it's worth the headache when you have the much more compelling Treasure Trove and Lucky Coin

Riches forced trash will typically be a huge benefit. Even just using it once with a bunch of Coppers to slim your deck down and never playing it again (as though it were Chapel) will probably make it really good, let alone that one could possibly play it with one or two Coppers to buy whatever you wanted and slim at the same time. It should probably cost $5, maybe even $6.
Whatever it's worth: I cannot imagine a Kingdom where I wouldn't open with Riches as written. Even if I got a 5\2 split, I'd probably only open favor strong junkers over Riches.

I would guess that Sarcophagus is overpowered. Multiplayer games will likely be miserably short with it between draining Action piles via Sarcophagi plays which will be common because of the on-buy that encourages Sarcophagi to be spam-bought. That on-buy is such a good effect that it takes a sub-$2 card into a $5 card in Ill-Gotten Gains.
I'd drop the on-buy and increase its cost to $7.

Collector, Grave Watcher, and Tomb Raider are cute and unique.
I like that Collector's benefit to all players works to enable other players' Collectors, while its one-card trashing is balanced by forcing to gain a card sharing a type with it (meaning that hitting an Estate turn 3\4 isn't a game-win). Could you name it Financier with that art? It might be a bit anachronistic.
Grave Watcher is a Copper junker, but is bounded by aligning it with a Curse which I think keeps it sufficiently in check.
Tomb Raider is probably more useful as a defense against other Attacks than a Treasure copier, but all its pieces come together nicely.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2018, 09:33:40 am »
0

Thanks for the feedback and interest, guys!

After careful consideration, I've decided to give some significant nerfs to Sarcophagus. Sarcophagus will now only play the targeted card once, and will only be able to target cards that cost "up to $2 less than it."

Overall, I realized that this makes Sarcophagus still better than Band of Misfits, a $5 card, as it will trigger on-gain and on-trash events, and retain its own on-buy Curse event. While this makes the Sarcophagus less attractive than when it was an OPAF throne, it's still a lot of power to pack into a mere $1 cost increase vs Band of Misfits.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2018, 10:03:54 am »
+1

Thanks for the feedback and interest, guys!

After careful consideration, I've decided to give some significant nerfs to Sarcophagus. Sarcophagus will now only play the targeted card once, and will only be able to target cards that cost "up to $2 less than it."

Overall, I realized that this makes Sarcophagus still better than Band of Misfits, a $5 card, as it will trigger on-gain and on-trash events, and retain its own on-buy Curse event. While this makes the Sarcophagus less attractive than when it was an OPAF throne, it's still a lot of power to pack into a mere $1 cost increase vs Band of Misfits.

It's not always better than Band of Misfits though, as it loses any while-in-play abilities of cards. To me, the big questions is if it's different enough from Band of Misfits to be worth having. And I think the answer is "probably". But it's still best to think of it as a Band of Misfits variant. One that benefits from on-gain and on-trash, while not benefiting from while-in-play. And also has the interesting side effect of draining piles. Also, with things like Watchtower, you can keep the card, which sounds like a powerful combo. Oh, you also get to keep any Reserve cards you gain with it. That might be too good.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2018, 11:07:57 am »
0

Hmm, I just realized that there is no official ruling on what happens to the effect that occurs on your next turn if you trash a Duration card that is in play.

I would assume that there is a Variants and Fan Cards precedent, though. If so, can someone tell me what it is?

Otherwise I will have to make a ruling, which may very well be that Sarcophagus stays in play until the Duration card is finished, then trashes it.

Edit: Ignore me; Procession has the same quirks.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:21:56 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2018, 03:44:51 pm »
+1

Hmm, I just realized that there is no official ruling on what happens to the effect that occurs on your next turn if you trash a Duration card that is in play.

I would assume that there is a Variants and Fan Cards precedent, though. If so, can someone tell me what it is?

Otherwise I will have to make a ruling, which may very well be that Sarcophagus stays in play until the Duration card is finished, then trashes it.

Edit: Ignore me; Procession has the same quirks.

Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession, but Bonfire. Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2018, 04:43:32 pm »
+1

Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession, but Bonfire. Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.

Hmm, according to the Procession wiki article:
Quote
If you use Procession on a Duration card, Procession will be discarded in the same turn's Clean-up, since the Duration card will no longer be in play.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Sarcophagused card will be trashed immediately after it is first played (before the 'next turn' is resolved) and Sarcophagus will be discarded. Then the next turn effect will trigger anyhow, but without the card being in play.

I dislike this a fair bit, but it is the official rules.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2018, 05:42:36 pm »
+1

Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession, but Bonfire. Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.

Hmm, according to the Procession wiki article:
Quote
If you use Procession on a Duration card, Procession will be discarded in the same turn's Clean-up, since the Duration card will no longer be in play.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Sarcophagused card will be trashed immediately after it is first played (before the 'next turn' is resolved) and Sarcophagus will be discarded. Then the next turn effect will trigger anyhow, but without the card being in play.

I dislike this a fair bit, but it is the official rules.

Right, forgot that rule was actually changed. In the Seaside rules (first edition); cards that played Durations stayed in play until the Duration was done doing anything. But it was later errata'd to be discarded when the Duration is discarded.

Actually the new rule's wording seems inaccurate; it says they are discarded at the same time as the Duration card, but in the case of Procession; that Duration card is never discarded. It should say discarded during the cleanup phase of the turn that the Duration left play.

If you don't like the effect it has on Sarcophagus, there's 2 options...

1) Limit it to non-Duration cards.

2) Trash the card next turn instead of this one. But that's kind of terrible; you have to make Sarcophagus a Duration also, and then it only makes sense when playing other Durations.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 05:44:28 pm by GendoIkari »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2018, 06:13:56 pm »
+2

GendoIkari, thanks so much for your replies. Your insights and experience are super helpful.

I have a third option, which could be to say "when it [the played card] leaves play, trash it." This would fix the duration issue but I'd have to look at all the other odd cards to see what it would do with them.

Update: I've decided to just go with the official rules; and not try to tamper with it. If I chose "when it leaves play, trash it," then the card would be confusing in cases of the lose track of rule -- if the card leaves play for a reason other than Sarcophagus, players might interpret "when it leaves play, trash it" as interrupting that and trashing the card (it wouldn't.) Plus then you lose the cool interaction of the card not staying in play, making the card more of a Band of Misfits clone. But the real clincher is Cultist. If Sarcophagus trashes a Cultist during Clean-up, what happens? It's not worth the headache.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 11:44:01 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Fragasnap

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2018, 08:59:28 pm »
+1

I definitely don't like Sarcophagus with it only playing cards once plus the Ill-Gotten Gains clause.
It stomps all over Ill-Gotten Gains, is made incredibly similar to Band of Misfits, and doesn't resolve my biggest issue anyway: That multiplayer games are likely to end quickly by draining piles.

If you don't mind a crazy wholesale suggestion:
Quote
Sarcophagus
Types: Action
Cost: $6
Gain an Action other than Sarcophagus from the trash, playing it twice. When it leaves play, return it to the Supply.
Setup: Put one of each Action other than Sarcophagus into the trash per player.
This can double everything only once per player without extra trashing, but it can't end the game because it is putting cards back into the Supply (which lets it avert timing issues with trashing during Clean-Up while also avoiding the annoyance of Duration tracking).
You could also vary the setup clause to put different Actions into the trash, but with the limited number of plays and the loss of the Ill-Gotten Gains effect, I think playing anything will be okay.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2018, 11:57:30 pm »
+1

Option 1 for sarcophagus would be good. Iím creating my own enchantress variant. But Iím keeping all durations and reserves out of the equation. So you could do the same. My fan expansion is called snowline.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2018, 12:00:43 am »
+1

And donít forget lurker, and grave robber they can effect sarcophagus too. But donít worry too much about. An expansion on its own doesnít always have to work well with other expansions. Nocturne for instance.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2018, 12:20:30 am »
+1

Thatís why I liked it sarcophagus that is cause it was like Iíll gotten gains but better. It does cost 6 so it is a little harder to buy. Iím probably an A player but most of my friends are C players and maybe 2 of them are B players. So when making an expansion for you and your friends itís okay to have a few powerful cards. C players arenít really gonna pick up on the overpowering thing. And it ends the game a little earlier so what. Half of time we never finish the game anyway and see who had the most points at that point. One time we had game where player won with 12 points as the highest score and 2 players had a minus score. And we still had a blast! Cause in the end all that matters is if you and your friends had fun. So it doesnít matter if some of your cards are overpowered, a gamble or like feast from the bace game (useless). And that was made by creator of dominion.

I love artifact! Itís the treasure variant of storyteller.

Looking forward to seeing the rest of your cards.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2018, 03:07:50 pm »
+1

Inspector isnít horrible but itís not much of an attack. Cause you have to hurt yourself in order to hurt them. Unless you play it and you end up with only good cards in your hand. Which in this case itís better than embassy you could still have to discard a lot of good cards with that one. But with inspector if you have to discard some good cards they may also have to discard too. But that doesnít happen to mid game before you start buying nothing but provinces. Also it doesnít work too well with weak cards. Cause if you discard a copper and a estate. They can choose to discard the estate if they have it which they probably will. So you may have to discard 2 coppers which may not help you either. If you wanted to make it a slightly better attack. Why donít you instead make it where you discard yours that you revealed. But instead of them discarding the card (estate) they topdeck it. That way it slightly ruins there next draw. And in this case they might go with copper more often. And in this case if you discarded 2 victory cards they would have to topdeck one. Which would make more like burrecrat an attack card that becomes more useful at the end of the game.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2018, 06:21:28 pm »
0

Hi guys! Thanks again for the feedback and attention!

Fragasnap, while I'm unlikely to change the Sarcophagus much more than I already have (because of testing burden) I really, really like your idea, although it would lead to the game ending fast as well (4 player game? piles only have 6 cards!) so I'd probably do it as 2 of each action in the trash.

ClouduHieh, I do really like the idea of Inspectors putting cards on top of the deck. I'll try it out.

On other news, I am also trying out a version of Aquifer that replaces the reaction with just being able to choose to gain an Aquifer, and maybe costs $4.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2018, 03:41:14 pm »
+1

Sorry, everyone, I've been late in posting the new art reveals:

This is a rules update to prevent the first-come-then-win exploitation of this card.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:42:53 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2018, 04:10:41 pm »
0

So Sarcophagus is now a mixture between BoM and IGG. The previous double-play version was in my opinion more interesting and could have easily fixed via preventing the card from gaining, throning and trashing all cards but itself.

While similar to Festival and Conclave Agora looks sound.

Archaeologist is good but I would price it at $6 (better than Catacombs so it cannot cost $5).

Inspector is pretty bad. Like worse than +2 Cards. You want to discard junk anyway so the Attack doesn't really hurt unless it is multiplayer, you have 3 cards left in your hand after two previous Inspector attacks, you play Inspector and then have to discard something good.

Profiteer looks inflexible and bad compared to Bridge. The Reaction is pretty restrictive as it only does something in the presence of gainers. But even then, e.g. Workshop, gain $4, discard a Profiteer to exchange for Gold, discard a Profiteer to exchange for Province is not impressive.

Boulder Trap
is a neat idea. I especially like that Indy is female now and would suggest to put a bit of the rules onto the card, kind of like with Changeling.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2018, 04:20:00 pm »
0

Agora looks bad. Festival is already kinda meh, and this just seems like a worse version. Villages + Silver gainers don't usually go well together.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2018, 04:25:53 pm »
0

With boulder trap, the issue becomes formatting; it theory it should be something like

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $3
-1VP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain a card from the top of a Supply pile, if this is the next card, gain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom pile.

That gets a bit crazy. But I will definitely entertain any feedback on how to avoid having three horizontal lines on the card.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2018, 04:37:45 pm »
+1

You could get rid of one line via something like this:

In games using this, during Setup shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom Supply pile and put the piles face down with the top card face up. When you gain a card, if this is the next card, also gain it.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2018, 03:23:22 am »
0

Sarcophagus could say "Trash it when it leaves play". At least from my latest point of knowledge, a card is still in play while leaving play (Band of Misfits can do Hermit's discard stuff), so lose-track doesn't apply. Unless that has changed, too, by now. Lose-track applies to me.
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