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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 6386 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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(Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: May 10, 2018, 09:27:08 am »
+7

Officially announced on reddit, here's essentially a crosspost:

You feel like youíve really got the hang of this Emperor thing. Your holdings reach out in all directions and cover the whole world. Thatís the problem, really. You are running out of directions to conquest; north, west, south, east, and florst, you rule them all. Youíve tried conquering in other directions, too: widdershins, reverse widdershins -- but eventually you realize youíre just trying to conquer from yourself. You canít really go up, either, but youíve got top men working on that. So youíve settled with going down. As soon as you started going down, you found riches, but you also found old things, things from a time before when someone else was also going down, apparently. But unlike whoever this was, you are still alive and that makes all the difference.

Antiquities is a 27-pile (plus a promo) fanspansion built and tested by me, with a ton of helpful feedback from this community. My gratitude for the feedback is immense. This would have not been worth landing without it, it was lame at the start.

You've all seen the WIP thread, so I'll skip to the fun part, card art reveals. This was done using Violet's card renderer, with art from Jan Boruta.

You can find all the arts at the other end of this link.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:40:02 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 10:10:35 am »
+1

Sweet art! Will the rulebook have boxart on the front too?

I don't like the "it" wording on Stronghold though, I think it should follow Hermit's wording rather than Harbinger's.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 02:07:42 pm »
0

Yes! Although I don't have that art yet.

Also, seriously check Jan's art out. You can see a sample on his deviantart site, but also by looking at any of JFD's Civilization VI and V mods. The dude needs more views.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:08:44 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 03:46:02 pm »
+1

Shipwreck might have accountability issues. If the finding of a treasure isn't optional, then the person would have to reveal their entire discard to prove there's no treasure in it. And if they do find a card, they should reveal it before putting it on the bottom of the draw pile.

Magic deals with similar things; if a card lets you search your library for any card and put it in your hand, then generally you don't have to reveal that card, and it's normally not optional. But if a card lets you search for something specific, like a land, then it always has you reveal the card you found, and finding it is always optional.

Same with Moundbuilder Village... it doesn't have accountability for finding the highest-cost card.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 03:48:25 pm by GendoIkari »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 04:06:52 pm »
0

Shipwreck might have accountability issues. If the finding of a treasure isn't optional, then the person would have to reveal their entire discard to prove there's no treasure in it. And if they do find a card, they should reveal it before putting it on the bottom of the draw pile
...
Same with Moundbuilder Village... it doesn't have accountability for finding the highest-cost card.

Gah, late-game issues!
Good catches, though. Shipwreck should be optional, and Moundbuilder Village could probably be changed to say "reveal your discard pile" since you'll have to show everyone all the card costs.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 11:10:15 pm »
+2

I should also mention I'm revealing a card every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday on my twitter.

(It might be helpful if you take a look at them since apparently I still have some typos and rule misses!)
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 05:20:08 am »
+1

Mound builder village is interesting, however once you start buying provinces it starts to become almost useless. And I think stronghold has to much text on the card, the action is kinda wonky. However i really love the reaction. It could be very useful against attacks like swindler, bandit, noble brigand, and giant. Ect. Also I have to say shipwreck is definitely my favorite of the 3. The fact that eventually a good card will end up in your hand is okay. And if you play it when you have a few cards in your deck at the time. You could have it in your hand or on that turn depending on what actions you have to work with. So it may be a weaker harbinger but the fact that it only costs 2 anyway might be worth buying. After all thereís other cards that give you the same benefit but different effects. Like peasant and herbalist. I think itís better than herbalist. So you may just want to tweak the cost and action effect of stronghold. But you donít have to itís a pretty cool idea after you get past the wonky ness. Maybe just tweak the wording if you can.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2018, 05:31:41 am »
+1

When I said card I meant treasure however why donít you just make it any card. Like harbinger.
I mean if you look thru a shipwreck looking for treasure you might find an octopus instead. I donít know about you but an octopus 🐙 just screams action. But just an idea. Either way itís still pretty cool. And if itís just treasure then it really is like an herbalist cause your usually aware of what treasures lurk in your discard pile. Sorry I couldnít help it.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2018, 08:00:24 pm »
+1

set needs an octopus card.

McGarnacle

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2018, 10:16:41 pm »
+1

This looks amazing! Nice to see a completed fan expansion.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 12:35:07 pm »
+2

set needs an octopus card.

Mistakes were made.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 07:40:20 pm »
+1

Tomb raider is interesting. An attack card that removes attack cards from other hands. Someone who hates attack cards and never buys them themselves will buy as many of these as they can if thereís at least one other attack card pile. Also if the player doesnít have an attack card. You can get a copy of a treasure in thier hand. Which would be more useful towards the middle to the end for a gold or other good treasure cards. And if the attack doesnít work or you canít copy a treasure worth coping at least you always have another action. And if you had 2 tomb raiders in your hand. You being player 1. Player 2 and 3 both the first time had to discard an attack. And player 4 didnít so you got to gain a copy of his gold. Then the second time you played it player 2 had to discard another attack. Player 3 didnít so you gained a copy of his harem. And another gold from player 4. In that way this could be too powerful for a card costing 3. 5 might be better all around so that it keeps you from getting too many of them. And by the time you have a couple of them. It will be more useful to you anyway. And if tomb raider is the only attack card in the game you could get 3 silvers or 3 golds each time you played it. So itís already stronger than bandit. And bandit costs 5. So it costing 5 or 6 would be better. And the only way to weaken this card is to put bandit fort the landmark in the game. However if you want to keep it at 3. Why donít you tweak it a little bit. Like for instance if someone canít discard an attack cause they donít have one, why donít you gain a silver or +1💵treasure for each who canít. This way you donít end up depleting the gold pile before every other pile. Like I said just tweak a little and it would be perfect card. And if you donít it wonít hurt my feelings. I would love to gain a few golds and discard other players attack cards in a singe turn, With still a lot more benefits in my turn.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 07:42:58 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2018, 08:03:29 pm »
+1

Riches is wonky. Yeah you could use it to get rid of all your coppers but then you would never buy silver or gold or any other treasure unless you didnít play it when riches was being played. Like harem maybe. But everyone would buying riches. There wouldnít be enough to go around for a for a 4 player game especially cause it would be worth buying other strong treasures like gold or platinum. In a two player game. All the provinces would be bought easily. Each 2 player game would only take like ten minutes and the game would be over. Especially if you have a lot of actions that give you extra treasure. The only way I could see it working. Is if you made it cost 7 instead and then made the trashing optional. Or must trash one other treasure per riches so that way damage to your deck can minimized. Because if you keep it the way it the way it is your only hurting yourself by buying it. So basically itís a deadly version of rats. At least with rats you usually have other cards that can trash rats and sometimes fortress to keep rats in check. And in a 3 or 4 player game you would have to limit what other cards you buy to the the actions that give treasure. And assuming you are able to keep all your coppers. Having a few storytellers and a couple of riches and another card that you gives you a + 1 buy, you could buy multiple provinces in a singe turn almost every turn.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2018, 08:11:39 pm »
+1

Sarcophagus is definitely my favorite of the next 3 cards. Itís a procession and Iíll gotten gains variant. A little stronger but better. I donít think it needs tweaking at all. Iíll gotten gains costed 5 but your benefit is a lot better. And just like Iíll gotten gains itís got the same theme.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 05:16:12 am »
+1

Riches is wonky. Yeah you could use it to get rid of all your coppers but then you would never buy silver or gold or any other treasure unless you didnít play it when riches was being played. Like harem maybe. But everyone would buying riches. There wouldnít be enough to go around for a for a 4 player game especially cause it would be worth buying other strong treasures like gold or platinum. In a two player game. All the provinces would be bought easily. Each 2 player game would only take like ten minutes and the game would be over. Especially if you have a lot of actions that give you extra treasure. The only way I could see it working. Is if you made it cost 7 instead and then made the trashing optional. Or must trash one other treasure per riches so that way damage to your deck can minimized. Because if you keep it the way it the way it is your only hurting yourself by buying it. So basically itís a deadly version of rats. At least with rats you usually have other cards that can trash rats and sometimes fortress to keep rats in check. And in a 3 or 4 player game you would have to limit what other cards you buy to the the actions that give treasure. And assuming you are able to keep all your coppers. Having a few storytellers and a couple of riches and another card that you gives you a + 1 buy, you could buy multiple provinces in a singe turn almost every turn.

Riches actually looks broken to me, it would still be a strong Copper trasher if it only gave +$1, but trashing ~2 Coppers at the same time as giving +$4 and letting you play the Coppers for money that turn too? Yeah that's clearly too much. And this can continue to be used as a +$4 treasure even after your Coppers are trashed if you refrain from picking up other treasures, most trashers just become useless cards once you're done trashing with them.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 06:19:10 am »
+1

Grave watcher where do I start? First of all itís not much of an attack. Even tomb raider is more of an attack than this one. The problem is your not going to get to use it as an attack very often. Unless you gain most the curses and most of the grave watchers. And if thatís all the cards you had in your deck you might win. I sopose if you put this with riches you would have some strong turns. Thatís only if there in the same game. And you would have to keep yourself limited to buying just grave watcher, riches, victories, and maybe an action with a +1 buy. But the problem is an action usually needs to be self sufficient. Grave watcher really isnít. There would probably still need to be an attack card that gives out curses. So you can maybe have one when you first play this. Otherwise itís the throne room dilemma all over again as an example. Now I do like the attack effect itís pretty cool. But gaining curses is the wrong way to do it. You would be better off just making the attack work every time and giving grave watcher a -1 Victory as in making it a new type of curse.If you get past the occasional attack part. Gaining curses just so you make +3 treasure and +1 action. Is crazy. You might do it once or twice. And it will probably help with your buy. But it would be crazy to do any more than that. And you wouldnít even think about doing it if there was no way to trash em. And of course itís useless if all curses are depleted. So it comes down to a one time use with sarcophagus. And only if sarcophagus and a curse are already in your hand. Even saboteur would be better and it doesnít have even have a gain. So grave watcher might need to be tweaked. Otherwise itís almost always going to be one of those cards no one buys during the game. I think this is worse than riches. Cause your lowering your score for just 3 extra treasure. And maybe a cool attack later in the game. And 4 treasure (riches) is better than 3.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 06:23:31 am »
+1

Aquifer is okay. You might want to tweak it just a little bit. First of all make it a little bit more like tunnel. So that way margrave letís gain another one as as oasis ect. Then make it cost like 3 or 4.
Like I said itís so so. If you want to make it better than average, thatís a suggestion.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 06:29:36 am »
+1

Collector is a gamble. After you discard the card of course. Why donít you just make the trashing optional or make it an attack so that everyone trashes too except they get down 1 you get 2 or 3  up.
I know the second idea isnít much better. But at least everyone else will be in the same gamble boat with you. And of course you would have to make it an attack card too. And I know my ideas donít really make this card any better than so so. Itís all I can think of. But something tells me the other members will have better ideas.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 06:34:20 am by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 06:42:13 am »
+1

So far sarcophagus and shipwreck are my favorites. If they were in the game as they were with no changes I would still play with them. Especially sarcophagus. You clearly have some cool cards I canít wait to see them all. And aquifer and tomb raider well tomb raider is pretty powerful and I do like powerful cards but other players wonít. As for aquifer itís just a little weak. I might still use it depending how often I can get strong buys in a game.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 12:39:52 pm »
0

Woo, I missed a bunch of the responses, sorry, will try to catch up. Thank you all for you comments!

I might need to do a "secret history of" at some point. It's been suggested, and I'm a narcissist, so why not?

First off let me clear up a misconception on Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider only ever lets you gain one card per turn. So in ClouduHieh's example of the double-Tomb Raider turn, on the second time your play Tomb Raider, when player 3 reveals Harem and player 4 reveals Gold, you are going to need to choose whether you want a Harem or a Gold, and pick that one. Perhaps I need to slightly adjust the text to make this more obvious (e.g., You gain a copy of one Treasure revealed this way.)

Grave Watcher, this is sort of a janky card for sure, but I do like it. If there was one thing I would change it would be to rethink the curse yourself, but really the set is done except for proofreading, plus if something is totally broken. I ran a WIP thread for months. That was the place to argue about design. But don't think I'm not listening and taking things to heart, even if I sound grumpy about it. Grave Watcher is all about presenting the player with a bad decision. Do you make it non-terminal? Do you move yourself from $7 in hand to $8? But don't let it go to your head, it's going to lose you the game if you're not careful. This thing could have been "mephistopheles" or "infernal contract" except then it was in too much danger of being clobbered by Nocturne (Nocturne was coming out when I was working on it.)

Then the attack; the attack was shoehorned in for two reasons. One, I realized I didn't have enough attacks in the game. Two, at one point this card was called "Pixiu", a Chinese dog/dragon thing that guards money and brings financial luck. So I gave it a financial luck attack. The attack rarely happens though, so it can be obnoxious but it isn't super obnoxious. As it is though, you never want to buy Grave Watchers for the attack, you buy them for the flexibility to make bad decisions. It turns out that Antiquities ends up having a whole bunch of attacks that can miss; it's almost worth saying that it's a theme of the set.

Collector, there's a weird thing that happens when you do designs. Sometimes a card that is bad gets popular with a certain segment of the fanbase. In this case, my fanbase is very small (20 people? that might be generous) and the segment of the fanbase is my wife. Since she is the person who I will play these cards with the most, her opinion matters. Anyways originally it had only the bottom rule, no looking at the top card. Also it would dump the gained card into your discard pile, so you'd really lose all the time, since you couldn't play it. So she would play this card every time she could and it would just tank her game. It was terrible. But she still used it every time. So eventually I buffed it to put the card back where you found it, which normally means you are at least breaking even every time you use it. Even then it still wasn't worth her focus. The randomness was just too, you know, random. At the same time I was reading every single entry in the Interview with Donald X for design insights to make the set better, plus more authentic, and realized I was lacking in "non-attack interactions" so I decided to add the top. If the testing still meant the card was bad all the time, I could increase the number of cards you scry before doing the random upgrade. But it appears that one is just fine. By the time I was doing all this, I had already ordered the art. If I hadn't, I would have renamed the card to "Gambler", since ClouduHieh is totally right, it's almost a total gamble.

Riches has a huge page of opinions (mostly that it is broken OP) in the WIP thread, but my testing didn't line up to the allegations that it is broken. I've never had it run away with a game yet. Eventually some players started pointing out that it's hard to use in a broken way. I'm not going to defend it though, just go read the WIP thread. But, again, like I said on reddit, the problem with my test group is that we're probably B or C-tier players. A and S tier players may be able to single-handedly use this card to go insane things. At least in Dominion a card is always available to everyone to use, as long as it doesn't become the only strategy that makes any sense every time it appears.

I am going to modify the rules to make it more obvious that having 2 Riches in play means you just blew up both Riches, though.

Thanks so much for the attention and respect you're giving this set, though! I always hope I don't sound too dismissive. I appreciate all of it, criticism included!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 12:58:23 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 01:05:02 pm »
+1

Also to bring in more context for people, here are the cards revealed so far on my twitter.


I totally made it unnecessary to go to my twitter. I suck at social media.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:19:18 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 01:07:49 pm »
0

Oh man, other secret history. Sarcophagus used to not have a limit on the cost of the card in the supply that you used it with. Then we tested it with Hunting Grounds.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 01:11:04 pm »
+1

Recommend making smaller versions of the images for the purposes of posting online (and post just links to the high-res versions if people want to print them out). Not sure if it's because of Imgur's speed or what, but this thread is taking an extremely long time to load for me.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2018, 01:19:57 pm »
0

I just switched them to imgur "Large Thumbnails". Let me know if that helped.

Edit: now when they expand they fit in your screen, too.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 03:53:53 pm »
0

I just switched them to imgur "Large Thumbnails". Let me know if that helped.

Edit: now when they expand they fit in your screen, too.

Much better!
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