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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 6172 times)

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2018, 02:12:41 pm »
0

With boulder trap, the issue becomes formatting; it theory it should be something like

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $3
-1VP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain a card from the top of a Supply pile, if this is the next card, gain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom pile.

That gets a bit crazy. But I will definitely entertain any feedback on how to avoid having three horizontal lines on the card.

I don't think you need to do this. If there are other Traps, printing all of the Trap rules on every card definitely seems like overkill. Also, the whole point of the weird border color is to tell people that they need to crack open the rulebook instead of wasting space on every card. It's not like Night Cards all say, "You can only play this after the Buy phase."
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2018, 10:29:27 am »
0

With boulder trap, the issue becomes formatting; it theory it should be something like

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $3
-1VP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain a card from the top of a Supply pile, if this is the next card, gain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom pile.

That gets a bit crazy. But I will definitely entertain any feedback on how to avoid having three horizontal lines on the card.

I don't think you need to do this. If there are other Traps, printing all of the Trap rules on every card definitely seems like overkill. Also, the whole point of the weird border color is to tell people that they need to crack open the rulebook instead of wasting space on every card. It's not like Night Cards all say, "You can only play this after the Buy phase."

^^This. In reality, I'll be distributing a rulebook.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2018, 10:14:17 am »
0

Looks like I've been breaking images by changing them, go figure. People keep asking me to make changes.

Here's a link to the final album. All art is final other than the Token, which is getting a bit of a facelift.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:32:51 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2018, 10:53:16 am »
+1

Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I think Artifact could be "pay any amount of (coins). You may gain...", although a "problem" there is that you may spend money and still get nothing.

I think I like Encroach (although I never heard that word before).

Trashing Graveyard with Watchtower in a Tomb game generates unbounded VP.

Prospector reminds me of something I tried to do once, but does it better. I might have mentioned this before.

Doesn't Riches make it awfully easy to buy Provinces? Buy Riches, buy Silver, trash all but Riches and buy Province, buy Riches, trash Riches and buy Province... I guess colliding two Riches isn't trivial, but even a single one is enough to get another Riches. I recommend trying out a stupid Riches-rush at least once to see where it gets you.

Sarcophagus' wording is unclear. I know this is dumb, but I genuinely misunderstood it at first, at least common sense tells me that I did.

Stronghold has too much text.

I assume discarding a Relic isn't revealing a Treasure for Tomb Hunter? As the revealing is an important part of the card, I wouldn't put it into parantheses here.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2018, 12:31:55 pm »
+1

Asper, I really appreciate your thoughts, especially Agora and Graveyard. I'll make sure Graveyards can't gain Graveyards from the trash and I'm going to get a migraine thinking about what to do to make sure Agora doesn't gain unlimited silvers to your hand.

I've done stupid Riches-rush before, it usually fizzles out before you win, although if you are the only one buying Riches you can get 5 Provinces with them if they all align nicely.

Discarding a Relic isn't revealing a Treasure. You would discard Relic, rather than reveal that you can't. I'll make a note to mention that in the rulebook.

I may massage Sarcophagus a bit to make it worded better. Its wording is a relic from when it was a Procession+Throne Room and might be better said.
Edit: I actually already have, just not uploaded it: "Gain an Action card costing up to $2 less than this and play it. When it leaves play, trash it."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 04:34:29 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2018, 06:01:00 pm »
0

About Sarcophagus, if I remember correctly, Saboteur used the same wording. So it's not like it's actually wrong, more like, if you came to think of a better wording, that would be neat. "Up to X" stuff seems goofy, but maybe "that costs less than this by at least 2"? It's the best I can think of.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2018, 12:23:19 pm »
0

Actually (despite vowing that I wasn't going to make design changes to any cards!) I've been trying a less complex version of Stronghold.

It seems balanced well at $5, but someone please point out where it's broken as hell:

Quote
Stronghold - Action-Reaction $5
Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile, trash a card from it, and put a card from it into your hand.
-
When you would trash a card, you may first reveal this from your hand, to instead discard the card.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2018, 01:05:53 am »
0

I love pharaoh! Now thatís an attack card! Powerful gain powerful attack and only if you gain 4 golds. It might be a little too powerful though. I didnít bother to look what the others said about it. But maybe it would be better costing 9. Or make it give out something else that is -2 V. Meaning make a new card. Thatís a minus score. Iíve done it! Iíve made at least 3 cards that are minus points. Like your boulder trap. And I have 2 cards that give out 2 different minus score cards. Avalanche gives out firn villages to each player a a snow shoes to the person who plays it. By the way Incase you didnít know firn is what you call a ton compacted snow. So itís definitely a theme to it. And firn villages are regular villages with a -2 V. And they canít be trashed either. Thatís where snow shoes comes in. Itís basically a masquerade. The only way to get rid of firn village. Cause itís like fortress.

So try something like that maybe. But regardless awesome attack. 👍
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2018, 01:25:39 am »
0

Snake charmer is awesome! Mostly just cause I like snakes. Most players wonít want a curse so they will trash. The beginning of the game itís actually helping them. Cause it gets rid of most useless cards. Towards the end of the game it might hit them a few times. But in reality the problem is taking a curse is probably better than trashing a gold or a powerful 5 card. And the fact by then all the curses will probably be gone anyway. So the attack isnít really much of an attack.

Why donít you make so they have to trash an action in order to prevent getting a curse. That way itís an attack either way. Either they lose an action which sets them back or they take a curse. And then of course they will be forced to buy snake charmer as well especially if itís the only way to trash. Then itís more useful to you throughout the game until you run out of curses anyway. And then this way if they want to avoid curses they may end up buying actions they donít usually buy.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2018, 01:56:55 am »
0

Mendicant.   First of all I must say I love copper strategies. But Iím not too big on gaining estates. Why donít you make it a duchy instead. And make it cost 5. So itís a little harder to get. And make it so you can only get one duchy per buy phase. Cause throne rooming or playing more than one might be chaotic it might get you a bunch of victory points but it would also ruin your deck too soon. Especially if it was multiple estates.

Hereís another idea.

Instead of a simple gain. Why donít you make it like this.

+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a copper to your hand.
óóóóóóóóóóóóóóó
At the end of your buy phase if you have no other treasure besides copper in play. You may trash a victory card from your hand. And then gain a duchy.

This way you could still keep it at 4$ and you wouldnít be able to gain to many duchies at once. Also you would have to buy extra estates if you wanted more than 3 duchies. And you wouldnít probably get 3 duchies in a turn even if you 3 mendicants in play. Also it wouldnít be quite like rebuild cause you could never go above a duchy. And also you could make it a little more interesting. Instead of saying duchy you could say a victory costing up to 6$. That would make it more useful if you were playing with other expansions. Like fairgrounds, Duke, Silk Road, tunnel, farmland would be epic!, the castles up to haunted castle, distant lands, island, nobles, harem, mill, feodum, gardens, Shepard and cemetary. And still keep out province, colony, some of the castles, and the one of kind vineyard.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2018, 10:28:43 am »
0

On the subject on Mendicant, I recently learned that I've been playing Dominion wrong all along in respect to Estates piles. I've always played with the whole stack of Estates, but it turns out that you only play with 8 extra Estates or 12 extra Estates, depending on number of players. So this makes Mendicant a lot weaker, since you can't go full Mendicant mode and run nothing but Mendicant turns for like 3 turns for many points. I may need to consider buffing this guy somehow. I think cantripping into Duchies is too strong though.
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2018, 05:37:05 pm »
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On the subject on Mendicant, I recently learned that I've been playing Dominion wrong all along in respect to Estates piles. I've always played with the whole stack of Estates, but it turns out that you only play with 8 extra Estates or 12 extra Estates, depending on number of players. So this makes Mendicant a lot weaker, since you can't go full Mendicant mode and run nothing but Mendicant turns for like 3 turns for many points. I may need to consider buffing this guy somehow. I think cantripping into Duchies is too strong though.

Don't change your card, just change the game!

Mendicant
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Copper to your hand.
At the start of your Clean-up phase this turn, if you have no non-Copper cards in play, you may gain an Estate.
------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Add Estates to its pile until you have X Estates.

<OR>

Setup: Add X Estates to its pile per player.

Also, "the end" of a phase is hard to define. "At the start of" is much more clear.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 05:42:53 pm by Kudasai »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2018, 08:33:57 pm »
0

Or why donít you create a new victory card that isnít part of the supply that mendicant can give out. Like how urchin becomes mercenary. It can still have 1 V like estate but give it an action effect too. And you can still give out estates when run out of the other card.

Just a thought.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2018, 04:22:45 am »
0

Or why donít you create a new victory card that isnít part of the supply that mendicant can give out. Like how urchin becomes mercenary. It can still have 1 V like estate but give it an action effect too. And you can still give out estates when run out of the other card.

Just a thought.

Because you'd need a whole bunch of them and Estate already exists.

I like Kudasai's suggestion, although admittedly I have a hard time understanding what kind of play style Mendicant wants to enable...

Is it supposed to reward you most for a Treasure-less engine? In that case, why not give out a Curse for 2 VP? Curses scale with player count, and if you do your engine effectively, you can trash them again,furthering the theme.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2018, 11:14:04 am »
0

Mendicant is a classic example of a bottom up design making your head hurt. It's trying to work with Lore, not with Strategies! The problem with having bought art as well is, you can't change the card away from its lore too much, or else you have to buy more art!

In practice it's really only good in a totally slogging situation, when there's a lot of junk flying around already. The idea is that Mendicant is a holy man, like a friar or something. He begs (coppers) and if you reject worldly wealth (Treasures that are not copper) you will eventually be rewarded with heavenly rewards (VP.)

Except it turned out that he was actually OP if he gave out VP tokens, so I changed it to Estates. You want a bunch of Mendicants in a later turn, and then you get the Estates.

Kudasai's solution is pretty good, actually. I've also tampered with ideas like "In games using this, Estates are worth +1VP if you have more than 15 Coppers." but the test burden is hard.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2018, 11:49:38 pm »
0

I was thinking you would only have to create 12 of the new victory card. But never mind.

You could also make mendicant worth victory points for the amount of coppers you have. Like 1 for every 5 coppers. It wouldnít  really change the theme. I mean if he really is sopose to be a holy man. He should be worth some victory points too. I mean nobles, duke and harem are people worth victory points so why isnít a mendicant worth some victory points too.

I mean since you would gain a copper every time you play it. If you were playing a 4 player game. You would run risk of depleting the copper pile anyway so why not just make mendicant even more useful. If you played your cards right you could make mendicant worth more than a duchy at least.

And itís not like a copper strategy is really such a bad way to play. Otherwise there wouldnít already be so many cards that work with a copper strategy. My personal favorites being storyteller and apothecary. Like I said I love copper strategies. And you would be surprised how many games I have won with those cards as well as Iíll gotten gains. Playing online Iíve won almost every time with a copper strategy if at least 1 of those cards was in the game. And one time I even won when the only copper strategy was fountain. Everyone else trashed most of their coppers but I bought 3 more and got 15 extra victory points. Once I did that they werenít able to catch up. One player even said if fountain is in the game heís making sure not miss out on those points ever again. Thatís worth more than 2 provinces and duchy. I think they forgot it was there, since there were so many ways to trash cards in that game. I mean bishop and forager was in the game.

I think itís cool as it is I just donít know if getting estates is the way to go.

Ooh how about the inheritance token from adventures. What if mendicant allowed you to put the inheritance token on the mendicant pile so that all your estates become the mendicant. You could do it as a reward.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:15:37 am by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2018, 12:25:49 am »
0

+1 card
+1 Action
Gain a copper to your hand.
óóóóóóóóó
During your buy phase if you have no other treasures in play besides copper. gain an estate, then you may discard 2 estates, if you did you may put your inheritance token on the mendicant pile.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2018, 04:02:24 am »
0

Ah, I forgot that Mendicant gained Copper to your hand. How about removing that and pushing the cards towards an engine in the way I suggested? For example:

+1 Card
+1 Action
(+1 Coin?)
When you discard this from play, if you have no Treasures in play, you may gain a Curse to take +2 (3?) VP.

You might want to look into the discussion my card Hospital stirred up ages ago. It was:

Hospital, Action, 4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Copper to your hand. If you do:+1VP

It was too good when trashing was around and too weak otherwise.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2018, 11:36:35 am »
0

I'm currently trying to test something like:

Mendicant $4.
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a copper to your hand.
You may return an Estate to the supply for +1 VP. If you don't, gain an Estate to your hand.

I'm not sure how stubborn I should be about the copper gain. However now it is like a cantrip baron of sorts.
I have no idea what the power level of the card is now.


Edit: Also, Mendicant seems to have swallowed up the Stronghold discussion. What did you all think of the Scavenger-like Stronghold I posted earlier?
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2018, 03:54:10 pm »
+1

Agora - I'm not sure if cards like Tunnel could be revealed from the discard if not covered up. This does not conclusively prove anything, but when playing online, if you discard a Tunnel and then trash the gained Gold with Watchtower (revealing Tunnel in the discard) you are not allowed to further React with Tunnel. Is this because Tunnel is briefly covered up by the Gold or can Tunnel can only be revealed once per discard? Either way, if you're worrying about infinite Silver gaining, I think here lies your solution. Just make sure Agora gets covered up briefly.



Mendicant - I'm of little worth judging a card analytically, but I think your current test version looks exciting and fun to play with! The ability to "trash" Estates, gain VP tokens, cycle, and provide economy makes it a very powerful $4 to open with, but it's power mid to late game is probably board dependent, which I think is great. It's a very easy card to understand, but seems to offer a lot of diverse gameplay options. In regards to Copper gaining, this might be broken if it was optional. Very cool looking card!

Stronghold - I didn't even bother reading the previous Stronghold due to how wordy it was. Sorry! But it should say something positive that I read your newest version and found it very easy to understand. I think most Dominion player's are fans of reliability and not having their precious decks mangled by Knights and this helps with both of those.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 04:03:24 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2018, 05:48:46 pm »
0

I'm not sure whether Tunnel would allow you to reveal it multiple times per discard. I just know that Reactions usually can be revealed unbounded times per trigger and that covering up any card for just a second makes a card expecting it to be the top card of the discard pile lose track of it. This was the reason for painful Watchtower/Border Village discussions. In short, you can never put the card gained with Border Village onto your deck and then Border Village on top. Now another question would be whether revealing a card is moving it,which is where lose track applies. Common sense says it is, for how would you show something to people that you can't get a hold of?

Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2018, 09:39:26 pm »
0

Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I feel like I'm missing a crucial detail in the Agora Silver gaining discussion. Was there a concern about this gaining unlimited Silvers to hand, or is Agora designed to do just that? This quote makes it seem like the latter.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2018, 11:09:14 pm »
0

I like agora.
And as far as gaining too many silvers. It wouldnít be the first card to deplete the silver pile. Trader did it a lot. Trash a silver gain 3 silvers, trash estate gain 2 silvers. And if everyone did that. 18 silvers would be taken from the pile just in estates alone. Many times when we played with trader especially if Iíll gotten gains or some other curse giving card was in the game. Silver would be the 2nd pile gone. With Iíll gotten gains first. So agora is not going to deplete it as fast. And donít forget about conquest I did that once with trader. Trashed a province gained 8 silvers bought conquest gained 2 more silvers and got 10 victory tokens.

So agora shouldnít deplete the pile nearly as fast. Tunnel would deplete the gold pile a lot faster since thereís less in the gold pile.

And the fact that you get to put a silver in your hand, when itís discarded via militia itís okay. Cause you may have to discard it anyway, unless you didnít have a good hand anyway. And minion hits you itís worse than tunnel. Cause tunnel costs 3 agora costs 5 tunnel gives you gold agora gives you silver to your hand. But remember minion makes you discard your entire hand. Your always better off with a tunnel than an agora during a minion attack. And if itís like milita is it really worth discarding an action that gives you +2 actions and +2 treasure anyway. The only way I can see agora being worthwhile to discard is if you have the option to do that with navigator. Which forces you to discard a bunch of cards or put them all back. But if you were playing with cartographer and had another action that let draw a card. Would you really bother discarding it. Not likely. Unless you didnít have another action to play. And needed the extra 2 treasure that a silver would provide.

So agora has its uses 50/50. Not so useful against an attack like milita, almost worthless against minion. Useful for cards like navigator. And useful 50% of the time with cards like cartographer. Although it would be a powerful card especially if you had more than one. When fortune teller attacked. It would be even better than tunnel against that attack card.

I still like it. Especially for its action.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:12:28 pm by ClouduHieh »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2018, 04:59:13 am »
0

Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I feel like I'm missing a crucial detail in the Agora Silver gaining discussion. Was there a concern about this gaining unlimited Silvers to hand, or is Agora designed to do just that? This quote makes it seem like the latter.

It was designed to gain a single Silver. But the card never gets covered up, thus never loses track of itself, thus may in its current form be revealable again and again from the discard pile, where it expects itself to be. The wording would technically have to be changed.

I mostly wrote the caveat of not being sure because no official card does this, so my reasoning is an amalgation and extrapolation from existing cards.

ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2018, 03:10:29 pm »
0

Token is weird.

You canít play treasures during your action phase.

So why draw a card and then discard a card during buy phase, unless your hoping to get a better treasure card to discard a victory or something.

Also it needs to be a Treasure-Reaction. Because your reacting when it gets discarded. To get that +1 treasure.
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