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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 7373 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #275 on: October 09, 2018, 06:52:05 pm »
0

Okay, so here's a crazy idea for Sarcophagus:

Quote
Memorial - Action - $6
Play and trash an Action card from your hand. Gain a card that costs less than it. If it's an...a

Action card, play it twice;
Treasure card, play it twice at the start of your next Buy phase;
Night card, play it twice at the start of your next Night phase.

So it's basically King's Court with a built-in Crown, but the Crown is Crowning a crappier card.
Oh, and it can gain (cheaper) Victory cards.

OP? Not sure. Do I like it more than Sarcophagus? Maybe.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #276 on: October 09, 2018, 06:57:16 pm »
0

Okay, so here's a crazy idea for Sarcophagus:

Quote
Memorial - Action - $6
Play and trash an Action card from your hand. Gain a card that costs less than it. If it's an...a

Action card, play it twice;
Treasure card, play it twice at the start of your next Buy phase;
Night card, play it twice at the start of your next Night phase.

So it's basically King's Court with a built-in Crown, but the Crown is Crowning a crappier card.
Oh, and it can gain (cheaper) Victory cards.

OP? Not sure. Do I like it more than Sarcophagus? Maybe.
I like it. Definitely more unique than Sarcophagus.
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #277 on: October 09, 2018, 08:37:11 pm »
0

Boulder Trap I'm still pondering the wording on. I basically want the rule to be "you pass this around whenever you discard it, but if you forget, you can't go back and change it." Fun...

Because giving the player to your left a Boulder Trap is optional, this is in line with punishing players who forget to do so. It's as if they made the choice to keep it, even though they likely didn't. Players gotta get good. :P If you really wanna hit home that it is a choice, you could try this wording:

"When you discard this, the player to your left may gain this, your choice."

Having the word "choice" might help and this is more in line with official Dominion lingo (see Scrying Pool).
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #278 on: October 09, 2018, 09:24:02 pm »
0

Shouldn't having the word may already indicate that it's optional? If you do use the 'your choice' wording, it should say something like 'or not, your choice,' but I think the word may covers that.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #279 on: October 10, 2018, 01:56:26 am »
0

Shouldn't having the word may already indicate that it's optional? If you do use the 'your choice' wording, it should say something like 'or not, your choice,' but I think the word may covers that.

Without it, it sounds like the player to your left chooses.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #280 on: October 10, 2018, 10:55:31 am »
0

Okay, so here's a crazy idea for Sarcophagus:

Quote
Memorial - Action - $6
Play and trash an Action card from your hand. Gain a card that costs less than it. If it's an...

Action card, play it twice;
Treasure card, play it twice at the start of your next Buy phase;
Night card, play it twice at the start of your next Night phase.

So it's basically King's Court with a built-in Crown, but the Crown is Crowning a crappier card.
Oh, and it can gain (cheaper) Victory cards.

OP? Not sure. Do I like it more than Sarcophagus? Maybe.
I like it. Definitely more unique than Sarcophagus.

Couple of quick comments:
1) it's a bit awkward when you gain a card, but then don't play it until your Buy / Night phase. I need to add a set-aside to prevent the card from being covered up by intervening actions: "Play and trash an Action card from your hand. Gain a card that costs less than it, setting it aside until Clean-up. If it's an.."

2) This actually feels a bit weak, since you are downgrading a card and playing the weaker version twice. I'm contemplating making it play the card from your hand twice, trash it and gain a cheaper card, play that twice. This might be too strong, though. Another counterbalance idea would be to not trash the original card but to gain 2 copies of the lesser card and play them twice if they are an action, otherwise they go to your hand. At that point it probably shouldn't be allowed to get 2 duchies if you trash a 6-cost Action using it, otherwise the only thing people will do with Memorials is use them to trash Memorials for 2 Duchies.

3) Another stranger element (that I'm keeping for now) is that currently if you gain a Werewolf with a Memorial, you play it four times (twice as an Action, twice as a Night card.) The same is true for Crown. However, I'm keeping it that way.

and finally 4) If you Memorial a Memorial you get these weird action chains where you play Memorial on Memorial, the second Memorial plays another card, trashes that card, gains a card and sets it aside to play it later, then trashes itself, gains a card and sets it aside to play later, then plays set aside cards or waits till the appropriate phase.

One thing I could do is just make you play the Night cards and Treasure immediately, but that is a bit weird (a *bit*) and Night cards generally are much less powerful if you play them too soon.
Edit: actually, the only Night card that really suffers a lot from being played in this manner is Crypt. And technically if you played Treasures in your Action phase before playing Crypt in your Action phase, then you could use Crypt on the Treasures.


Another idea that's totally different would be to have memorial function as a King's Court that can only play one thing; the way it works would be like this:

Quote
Actually Remembering Something Memorial - Action - $6
If a card is on your Memory mat, play it three times, then return it. Otherwise, put a card from your hand onto your Memory mat.
-
Memorial has the card types of the card on your Memory mat.
If Memorial is a Victory card, it's worth 3VP at the end of game.

Edit: updated for better wording.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:49:01 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #281 on: October 11, 2018, 10:16:21 am »
0

So the problem with "Actually Remembering Something Memorial" is that it can consistently target Gold. Then it becomes a Treasure worth $9. That costs $6.

Right now in the game you can King's Court say a Legionary to get an Action worth $9. But to do that you have to collide King's Court and Legionary and you can't do that every game, just games with Legionary. You also have to collide it every time you want the $9.

Now, ARS Memorial needs you to collide the card once, the first time. If you collide with something else, you lose the ability to collide so I'm expecting it to take a bit of time before you collide with the right thing. However, I feel like the basic strategy for ARS Memorial will be, figure out the fastest way to get multiple Golds, then buy a Memorial and collide them, then buy Memorials. After that, have Memorials (which are a Treasure) and cruise home to Victory.

Of course, testing is needed. But I have two ideas:
1) Make ARS Memorial only play the card twice. Balance its cost around this fact. I'm not worried as much about people using it on Platinums since that's more of a drawn-out process -- you can't just invest in a Platinum gainer like you can a Gold gainer.
2) Make ARS Memorial only able to target Kingdom cards. This gives you all the shenanigans of ARS Memorial but removes the most obvious abuses.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #282 on: October 11, 2018, 11:01:02 am »
0

So the problem with "Actually Remembering Something Memorial" is that it can consistently target Gold. Then it becomes a Treasure worth $9. That costs $6.

Right now in the game you can King's Court say a Legionary to get an Action worth $9. But to do that you have to collide King's Court and Legionary and you can't do that every game, just games with Legionary. You also have to collide it every time you want the $9.

Now, ARS Memorial needs you to collide the card once, the first time. If you collide with something else, you lose the ability to collide so I'm expecting it to take a bit of time before you collide with the right thing. However, I feel like the basic strategy for ARS Memorial will be, figure out the fastest way to get multiple Golds, then buy a Memorial and collide them, then buy Memorials. After that, have Memorials (which are a Treasure) and cruise home to Victory.

Of course, testing is needed. But I have two ideas:
1) Make ARS Memorial only play the card twice. Balance its cost around this fact. I'm not worried as much about people using it on Platinums since that's more of a drawn-out process -- you can't just invest in a Platinum gainer like you can a Gold gainer.
2) Make ARS Memorial only able to target Kingdom cards. This gives you all the shenanigans of ARS Memorial but removes the most obvious abuses.
This sounds a lot like Inheritance. It could maybe be:
If this is your first Memorial this game, set aside a non-Victory Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Memorial token to it. (Your Memorials gain the abilities and types of that card.) Otherwise play this twice.
I'm not quite sure this would actually work. Obviously the main difference here is that the 'in-play' effects of cards will actually take place. The cost restriction and non-victory clause can be removed, but I think there should maybe be some sort of cost restriction (maybe 'set aside a card costing less than this?). Also I think it should not be able to be a Victory card for simplicity.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #283 on: October 11, 2018, 11:42:46 am »
+1

How about something simpler? Like:

Quote
Memorial, Action, 5$
You may play an Action card from your hand twice. You may play it a third time. If you do, trash it and gain an Action card costing less than it.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #284 on: October 11, 2018, 11:49:30 am »
+1

That sounds very similar to another card I've seen on here where you also had the option of playing it only once to gain a copy of it, and did not gain a card if you played it three times and trashed it.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #285 on: October 11, 2018, 11:52:29 am »
+1

That sounds very similar to another card I've seen on here where you also had the option of playing it only once to gain a copy of it, and did not gain a card if you played it three times and trashed it.

Oh, right! So that's why it seemed so familiar.

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #286 on: October 11, 2018, 12:01:51 pm »
+1

That sounds very similar to another card I've seen on here where you also had the option of playing it only once to gain a copy of it, and did not gain a card if you played it three times and trashed it.

Oh, right! So that's why it seemed so familiar.
Whose card was that, do you know?
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #287 on: October 11, 2018, 01:46:21 pm »
+2

That sounds very similar to another card I've seen on here where you also had the option of playing it only once to gain a copy of it, and did not gain a card if you played it three times and trashed it.

Oh, right! So that's why it seemed so familiar.
Whose card was that, do you know?

Kru5h's Scepter.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #288 on: October 15, 2018, 11:19:08 am »
0

I'm also trying out this idea, but the balance level on it is mindboggling:

Quote
Memorial Splitter - Action - $6?
+2 Cards
You may name an Action card. Reveal any number of matching cards from your hand. Play them or set them aside.
Then, you may play all the matching cards that were set aside with Memorial.

The issue here is you can use it as some sort of Village, kind of like a Lost City or something, where it says "+2 Cards, play any number of cards with the same name from your hand."
On the other hand, you can set aside the cards and play them with a different Memorial, to get a Throne room effect; but to do that, you need to remove the cards from circulation, which could be very bad, this would drive down the cost compared to it being a Lost City variant.
Finally, you can also use it to remove Actions from your deck permanently, like a Trash effect.
I'm guessing this clocks in at $6 (~$7 for +2 cards +2 actions, -2 for removing Actions from circulation, +1 because that could be a good thing as a trasher move) but it could be a lot weaker or a lot stronger.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 11:23:47 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #289 on: October 15, 2018, 10:05:08 pm »
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Here's a card from the Weekly Challenges thread that appears to be inspired by a version of Memorial (or at any rate is very similar):


Clarification: Cost reduction effects such as Bridge and Highway will make General cost fewer Debt during your Buy phase.
It would appear that Memorial is a pretty good idea, if someone else also has that idea or uses it as inspiration.
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Gubump

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #290 on: October 16, 2018, 12:50:23 am »
0

Here's a card from the Weekly Challenges thread that appears to be inspired by a version of Memorial (or at any rate is very similar):


Clarification: Cost reduction effects such as Bridge and Highway will make General cost fewer Debt during your Buy phase.
It would appear that Memorial is a pretty good idea, if someone else also has that idea or uses it as inspiration.

How does General look like it was inspired by Memorial? The only commonality that I see is they're both Throne Room variants.
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Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #292 on: October 16, 2018, 07:55:23 am »
0

Here's a card from the Weekly Challenges thread that appears to be inspired by a version of Memorial (or at any rate is very similar):


Clarification: Cost reduction effects such as Bridge and Highway will make General cost fewer Debt during your Buy phase.
It would appear that Memorial is a pretty good idea, if someone else also has that idea or uses it as inspiration.

How does General look like it was inspired by Memorial? The only commonality that I see is they're both Throne Room variants.
Sorry, I meant Actually Remembering Something Memorial:
Quote
Actually Remembering Something Memorial - Action - $6
If a card is on your Memory mat, play it three times, then return it. Otherwise, put a card from your hand onto your Memory mat.
-
Memorial has the card types of the card on your Memory mat.
If Memorial is a Victory card, it's worth 3VP at the end of game.
How does the card interact with Quarry?
I think that Quarry would decrease the cost in coins, thereby decreasing the cost in debt.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 07:56:41 am by Fly-Eagles-Fly »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #293 on: October 16, 2018, 10:02:26 am »
0

Yeah, when I look at General I think it's more like Necromancer-as-a-Throne room than Actually Remembering Something Memorial; they could be connected, but ARS Memorial's uniqueness was that it could only effect one card type in a game -- if I saw that on General I might think that they were directly inspired.

It's a cool card idea, though.

Edit: I'd probably borrow the Necromancer-like language if I end up going with ARS Memorial.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 10:09:57 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #294 on: October 16, 2018, 02:02:11 pm »
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How does the card interact with Quarry?
I think that Quarry would decrease the cost in coins, thereby decreasing the cost in debt.
But during your Buy phase, isn't the card's cost in coins zero?

Fly-Eagles-Fly

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #295 on: October 16, 2018, 02:23:50 pm »
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How does the card interact with Quarry?
I think that Quarry would decrease the cost in coins, thereby decreasing the cost in debt.
But during your Buy phase, isn't the card's cost in coins zero?
Oh. Yeah, I guess Quarry doesn't affect it then?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #296 on: October 16, 2018, 03:17:41 pm »
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So based on my own testing I'm pretty happy with this:

Quote
Memorial - Action - $6
+2 Cards
You may name an Action card. If you did, reveal your hand and play the matches or set them aside.
Then, you may play all the matching cards that were set aside with Memorial.

However, it definitely needs tighter wording. And possibly a Mat.
Any thoughts? As far as I can tell it's balanced fairly well, but I'm sure there are some edge cases I've neglected.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #297 on: October 16, 2018, 03:30:06 pm »
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Looks good. I guess it "fails" some time and is just a Village instead of a Lost City. Obviously it incentivizes monocard strategies like e.g. a lot of Peddlers or villages or Bridges.  I guess Bridge will be especially good due to the megaturn potential if you leave them set aside.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #298 on: October 16, 2018, 03:51:47 pm »
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Yes, there is the question of "do we really need to further incentivize monocard strategies?" However I'm not sure one card to incentivize them would be bad.

When it fails, it's actually more a Laboratory than a Village.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 03:55:20 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #299 on: October 16, 2018, 03:58:05 pm »
0

Yeah, that was a dumb mistake on my part.
About the monocard thing, given that Nocturne had some cards that reward variety I don't think that a card that does the opposite of that is bad.
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