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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 20819 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #200 on: August 07, 2018, 03:03:52 pm »
0

Yes, the Artifact thing has come to mind.

Unless there's some cute thing I can do to hook them in. Probably not.
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #201 on: August 07, 2018, 03:05:11 pm »
+4

So, Renaissance was just announced... This might change everything again.

Yeah, you should probably rename Artifact.

Just call it Artefact, boom problem solved.

Do you know how hard I had to fight in order to get Donald X. to not name Pixie "Fairy", in order to avoid confusion with Ferry? Really damn hard. I thought it was a no-brainer, but opinions differ I guess.

Which is to say, NO NO NO NO NO NO NO DO NOT NAME IT "ARTEFACT".
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #202 on: August 07, 2018, 03:18:38 pm »
0

So the problem of course is Art.

I'll rename it to a synonym, though, like.... ummm... Heirloom!
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #203 on: August 07, 2018, 03:44:31 pm »
0

No joke aside it's probably going to be "Curio" or something; the idea was that you dig up an Artifact, then trade it for money. So it's really what a Profiteer does.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #204 on: August 07, 2018, 05:09:42 pm »
0

LastFootnote, while I have you here, (assuming I do...) what's your opinion on Riches? Is it broke OP?
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #205 on: August 07, 2018, 05:27:09 pm »
+1

LastFootnote, while I have you here, (assuming I do...) what's your opinion on Riches? Is it broke OP?

It looks very strong. Of course it depends a lot on the board, but I would guess it's too strong for $4.

If you have two Riches in play, they trash each other, right? I think that's how it would end up working.
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #206 on: August 07, 2018, 05:27:51 pm »
+1

No joke aside it's probably going to be "Curio" or something; the idea was that you dig up an Artifact, then trade it for money. So it's really what a Profiteer does.

I also like "Curio".
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #207 on: August 07, 2018, 05:52:54 pm »
0

LastFootnote, while I have you here, (assuming I do...) what's your opinion on Riches? Is it broke OP?

It looks very strong. Of course it depends a lot on the board, but I would guess it's too strong for $4.

If you have two Riches in play, they trash each other, right? I think that's how it would end up working.

Yes, they do trash each other.
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #208 on: August 08, 2018, 12:47:52 pm »
+2

LastFootnote, while I have you here, (assuming I do...) what's your opinion on Riches? Is it broke OP?

It looks very strong. Of course it depends a lot on the board, but I would guess it's too strong for $4.

If you have two Riches in play, they trash each other, right? I think that's how it would end up working.

Yes, they do trash each other.

Yeah, the more I think about it, Riches is just too crazy on way too many boards. I mean it's a great single Treasure to have in your deck. And it trashes all your Coppers in one of the strongest ways possible (from play). It also trashes them really fast, and you can always open with it. It's a must-buy in any game that provides basically any +$ from Actions. I think it's probably too strong at any price, though you could try it at e.g. $7.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #209 on: August 08, 2018, 02:21:02 pm »
0

Alright, I think at this point I say, the time for being stubborn is at an end. I'll replace the card with something that uses the same art, probably an Action.

Very very early idea is something like:

Quote
Financier - Action - $5
+ $1

Double your $ if you haven't yet this turn.
-
At the end of your Buy Phase, if you don't have at least $2 unspent, trash this.
It's worth a fortune!
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silvern

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #210 on: August 08, 2018, 02:34:04 pm »
+2

Alright, I think at this point I say, the time for being stubborn is at an end. I'll replace the card with something that uses the same art, probably an Action.

Very very early idea is something like:

Quote
Financier - Action - $5
+ $1

Double your $ if you haven't yet this turn.
-
At the end of your Buy Phase, if you don't have at least $2 unspent, trash this.
It's worth a fortune!

That....seems too strong. like, even the $1, you can always reliably use it for (2x-2) money, where x is total money without it. And in any reasonable engine, that's just overpowering.
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #211 on: August 08, 2018, 03:05:04 pm »
+2

Alright, I think at this point I say, the time for being stubborn is at an end. I'll replace the card with something that uses the same art, probably an Action.

Very very early idea is something like:

Quote
Financier - Action - $5
+ $1

Double your $ if you haven't yet this turn.
-
At the end of your Buy Phase, if you don't have at least $2 unspent, trash this.
It's worth a fortune!

That....seems too strong. like, even the $1, you can always reliably use it for (2x-2) money, where x is total money without it. And in any reasonable engine, that's just overpowering.

I agree.

On a tangent, there was a Nocturne outtake that's briefly mentioned in the secret history. It was a Treasure called Abundance, and it was half a Fortune. It still had +1 Buy, and you could stack them (unlike Fortune), but it only gave you +$1 per $2 you had, rounded down. Guess how much it cost before it was cut?

It cost $3. Originally it cost $5, but it was so weak. Eventually it got cut for being too weak and situational, I think. It's just amazing to me the power difference between a Treasure that doubles your money ($8 and 8 Debt) and one that only multiplies it by 1.5 ($3). That rounding down is a killer, as it turns out.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #212 on: August 08, 2018, 05:05:40 pm »
+1

Fanancier is an action if people didn't notice. So I think it's going to be pretty weak on average but very good with support?
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #213 on: August 08, 2018, 05:09:24 pm »
+2

How about something with player interaction, similar to Counterfeit?

Quote
Riches, 5, Treasure
3 coins
+1 Buy
At the start of this turn's cleanup the player to your left may name another Treasure you have in play. Trash it.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #214 on: August 08, 2018, 06:02:55 pm »
0

Fanancier is an action if people didn't notice. So I think it's going to be pretty weak on average but very good with support?

Yes, he is intended to double your money before you can play any treasures. But perhaps he's too weak on average, and too strong with support.

The idea that I'm running with is, here's Financier. He evaluates your company's worth and if he likes it, he gives you a bomb of money. But he wants to make sure he gets a return on investment. If he doesn't, he walks.
He's "really temporary money", in that he lets you spend more than you have but then he's gone if you don't get a reward for it.

I'm definitely going to test him with different costs for how much you have to not spend to keep him, as well as with a "may" for when he doubles your cash, so that getting multiple Financiers is good?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #215 on: August 08, 2018, 06:23:36 pm »
0

So here's some theorycrafting:

Fortune is worth roughly $16.
But this trashes itself if you spent all that $16 worth, so maybe it's worth, I don't know, $14? $12?. Unless you didn't care about him trashing because you just bought two Provinces? And you figure it was worth it.
Of course, this is not going to give you the return that Fortune did because 1) it's an Action and 2) it's Terminal. Unless of course the money you have is from 8 Peddlers or Conspirators or something. At which point it's still giving you $16 of value for a $5 card. Of course, you can say that about quite a few payoff cards, Counting House could give you $16 of value for a $5 if you somehow played it after having gained a ton of Copper and dumping your deck into the discard pile.

I like the underlying idea of someone floating you money and then demanding a payback or else. In some ways that's just Capital though.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #216 on: August 08, 2018, 06:25:34 pm »
+1

Maybe it could be a choose 1, double money or +1 Buy, so it has a small chance of seeing play with no other source of action coins? I guess that depends on much +buy is in the set already.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #217 on: August 09, 2018, 11:47:06 am »
0

I should also mention that I'm going to wait for Renaissance before finalizing, I'm very interesting in what new techs I can use to make cards.

But getting in front of Financier before that happens is probably a good idea.

Alternatives to Financier's concept would be some sort of "Wealthy Merchant" or a card for a split pile that sits under Tomb Raider. Financier could be that card but then it should sort of make sense there.
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #218 on: August 09, 2018, 04:11:11 pm »
0

On a tangent, there was a Nocturne outtake that's briefly mentioned in the secret history. It was a Treasure called Abundance, and it was half a Fortune. It still had +1 Buy, and you could stack them (unlike Fortune), but it only gave you +$1 per $2 you had, rounded down. Guess how much it cost before it was cut?

I would have guessed $6-$7 purely because they can stack.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #219 on: August 10, 2018, 01:44:41 pm »
0

As a probably ridiculously powerful alternative:

Quote
Mastermind - Action -$5
+1 Buy
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back in any order, then get...

+ $1 per Treasure revealed,
+1 Action if you revealed an Action,
+1 Card if your revealed a Victory card.

I think I would put this under Tomb Raider as a split card, since it might be very powerful in a 5/2 start.
Otherwise it's at best a form of Grand Market with a bit of Cartographer thrown in, if the star align or you play them back to back or KC them.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 02:36:40 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #220 on: August 10, 2018, 02:42:05 pm »
0

On a totally different thought, would Riches be more balanced if it trashed all the Treasures you have in play including itself? In that case it's still very powerful and a good removal, but also removes itself.
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Aquila

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #221 on: August 10, 2018, 04:00:49 pm »
0

As a probably ridiculously powerful alternative:

Quote
Mastermind - Action -$5
+1 Buy
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, discard any number, and put the rest back in any order, then get...

+ $1 per Treasure revealed,
+1 Action if you revealed an Action,
+1 Card if your revealed a Victory card.

I think I would put this under Tomb Raider as a split card, since it might be very powerful in a 5/2 start.
Otherwise it's at best a form of Grand Market with a bit of Cartographer thrown in, if the star align or you play them back to back or KC them.
You'd probably get the bonuses for each card you reveal, then discard or put them back. It's easier to track that way. In terms of strength, it certainly looks the right decision to put it under a split pile or cost it more, payload that can do almost everything it needs to in a 'good stuff' deck. Fits right in your set.
Split piles in the set are either going to be interesting or uninteresting with Discoveries and Boulder Traps, I would call it uninteresting for the chance element it introduces to shuffle the piles but of course that's the intended spirit of those cards. Then suppose you go with it, would Tomb Raider be the best top? There isn't much synergy there.
Tomb Raider could make a good split pile though, to include an Attack or Treasure for it to target.

On a totally different thought, would Riches be more balanced if it trashed all the Treasures you have in play including itself? In that case it's still very powerful and a good removal, but also removes itself.
This will remove its function of single Treasure payload with +$ on Actions and make it a one-shot that both trashes and builds the deck. Self removal is an advantage for a trasher, you don't like the Chapel that hangs around after it's done its thing. At $4 cost I couldn't see this giving any more than $1, even at $5 cost $2 could be too much. Loan is another comparison.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #222 on: August 10, 2018, 04:48:40 pm »
+1

As a probably ridiculously powerful alternative:

Quote
Mastermind - Action -$5
+1 Buy
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck...

+ $1 per Treasure revealed,
+1 Action if you revealed an Action,
+1 Card if your revealed a Victory card.

Then discard any number of cards, and put the rest back.

I'm not sure how powerful this is, but it does a couple of things I'm not a fan of. You don't know whether it's going to be terminal or non-terminal when you play it, which I always disliked about Tribute and don't think I'd enjoy here. It also has you revealing cards and then drawing before you put the revealed cards back which I don't think happens ever apart from odd interactions like Lookout+Overgrown Estate, just seems like something a card shouldn't do by itself? It's also strange that it's +$1 for each treasure,but the other 2 are just for having 1. I don't know, I guess it could do with some refining?

On a totally different thought, would Riches be more balanced if it trashed all the Treasures you have in play including itself? In that case it's still very powerful and a good removal, but also removes itself.

It would certainly be more balanced, I'm not sure whether it would be actually balanced though... It's just a very strong effect to have access to on the 1st reshuffle. Trashing 2ish Coppers and being able to spike basically any price point is just insane.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #223 on: August 10, 2018, 05:12:52 pm »
0

Split piles in the set are either going to be interesting or uninteresting with Discoveries and Boulder Traps, I would call it uninteresting for the chance element it introduces to shuffle the piles but of course that's the intended spirit of those cards. Then suppose you go with it, would Tomb Raider be the best top? There isn't much synergy there.
Tomb Raider could make a good split pile though, to include an Attack or Treasure for it to target.

There's actually rules for that case; you treat the splits as separate piles. So if you have say, Patrician/Emporium, you shuffle into Patrician if there are any, and Emporium otherwise. It's not perfect but it doesn't "ruin" the split.

It totally ruins Castles. At one point I had a rule where any ordered pile was exempt, but it seemed weird not being able to use Discoveries properly.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #224 on: August 11, 2018, 08:42:04 pm »
0

Warning: this will be a big post. I'm using it to think outside of my head (I'm an extrovert.)

What can Mastermind be? If so, how powerful is it?

Let me start with the extreme cases:

+4 Cards, +1 Buy: basically Council Room without the drawback. So probably about $6 or $7 worth.
+$4, +1 Buy: again, basically Wine Merchant with no drawback. So again in the $6 or $7 likely.
+4 Actions, +1 Buy: Maybe crazy but probably not. Without Actions to go with it, 4 Actions is iffy.

+3 Cards, +$1, +1 Buy: The most similar card is, I think, Tragic Hero. so this is probably actually very close to $5 since it replaces Tragic Hero's payoff with a standard +$1.
+3 Cards, +1 Action, +1 Buy: The most similar card is still Tragic Hero, but this is non-terminal so it's around that $6 or $7 mark if not higher.
+$3, +1 Action, +1 Buy: The most similar card is probably Countraband, more or less. $5? $6?
+$3, +1 Card, +1 Buy:
+3 Actions, +$1, +1 Buy
+3 Actions, +1 Card, +1 Buy

+2 Cards, +$2. +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +2 Actions, +1 Buy: almost a final-form city.
+2 Cards, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy: OP Laboratory?
+$2, +2 Actions, +1 Buy: Festival
+$2, +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy: Hey look it's Grand Market.
+2 Actions, +1 Card, +$1, +1 Buy: Really Good Village

I got bored of this before I finished the list but I think we can agree that this card either needs to cost $6 or $7, or have an additional drawback, or lose the +1 Buy.

A fun little drawback if this is to go under Tomb Raider would be "at the end of your turn, if you didn't gain a Treasure this turn, trash this"; or maybe "You can't gain this if you didn't gain a Treasure this turn."
The card also has a baked-in drawback, which is that the first time you play it each turn, it's going to be random. But it's going to be a random really good card, most of the time.

For now I'm going to test it at no +1 Buy, with the "if you didn't gain a Treasure this turn, trash this" and it being underneath Tomb Raider. It may need to cost $4 at that point, in which case then maybe it'll get the +1 Buy back, or lose the additional drawback.
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