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Author Topic: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities  (Read 2787 times)

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Neirai the Forgiven

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(Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« on: May 10, 2018, 09:27:08 am »
+7

Officially announced on reddit, here's essentially a crosspost:

You feel like youíve really got the hang of this Emperor thing. Your holdings reach out in all directions and cover the whole world. Thatís the problem, really. You are running out of directions to conquest; north, west, south, east, and florst, you rule them all. Youíve tried conquering in other directions, too: widdershins, reverse widdershins -- but eventually you realize youíre just trying to conquer from yourself. You canít really go up, either, but youíve got top men working on that. So youíve settled with going down. As soon as you started going down, you found riches, but you also found old things, things from a time before when someone else was also going down, apparently. But unlike whoever this was, you are still alive and that makes all the difference.

Antiquities is a 27-pile (plus a promo) fanspansion built and tested by me, with a ton of helpful feedback from this community. My gratitude for the feedback is immense. This would have not been worth landing without it, it was lame at the start.

You've all seen the WIP thread, so I'll skip to the fun part, card art reveals. This was done using Violet's card renderer, with art from Jan Boruta.

You can find all the arts at the other end of this link.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:40:02 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 10:10:35 am »
+1

Sweet art! Will the rulebook have boxart on the front too?

I don't like the "it" wording on Stronghold though, I think it should follow Hermit's wording rather than Harbinger's.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 02:07:42 pm »
0

Yes! Although I don't have that art yet.

Also, seriously check Jan's art out. You can see a sample on his deviantart site, but also by looking at any of JFD's Civilization VI and V mods. The dude needs more views.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:08:44 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 03:46:02 pm »
+1

Shipwreck might have accountability issues. If the finding of a treasure isn't optional, then the person would have to reveal their entire discard to prove there's no treasure in it. And if they do find a card, they should reveal it before putting it on the bottom of the draw pile.

Magic deals with similar things; if a card lets you search your library for any card and put it in your hand, then generally you don't have to reveal that card, and it's normally not optional. But if a card lets you search for something specific, like a land, then it always has you reveal the card you found, and finding it is always optional.

Same with Moundbuilder Village... it doesn't have accountability for finding the highest-cost card.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 03:48:25 pm by GendoIkari »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 04:06:52 pm »
0

Shipwreck might have accountability issues. If the finding of a treasure isn't optional, then the person would have to reveal their entire discard to prove there's no treasure in it. And if they do find a card, they should reveal it before putting it on the bottom of the draw pile
...
Same with Moundbuilder Village... it doesn't have accountability for finding the highest-cost card.

Gah, late-game issues!
Good catches, though. Shipwreck should be optional, and Moundbuilder Village could probably be changed to say "reveal your discard pile" since you'll have to show everyone all the card costs.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 11:10:15 pm »
+2

I should also mention I'm revealing a card every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday on my twitter.

(It might be helpful if you take a look at them since apparently I still have some typos and rule misses!)
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 05:20:08 am »
+1

Mound builder village is interesting, however once you start buying provinces it starts to become almost useless. And I think stronghold has to much text on the card, the action is kinda wonky. However i really love the reaction. It could be very useful against attacks like swindler, bandit, noble brigand, and giant. Ect. Also I have to say shipwreck is definitely my favorite of the 3. The fact that eventually a good card will end up in your hand is okay. And if you play it when you have a few cards in your deck at the time. You could have it in your hand or on that turn depending on what actions you have to work with. So it may be a weaker harbinger but the fact that it only costs 2 anyway might be worth buying. After all thereís other cards that give you the same benefit but different effects. Like peasant and herbalist. I think itís better than herbalist. So you may just want to tweak the cost and action effect of stronghold. But you donít have to itís a pretty cool idea after you get past the wonky ness. Maybe just tweak the wording if you can.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2018, 05:31:41 am »
+1

When I said card I meant treasure however why donít you just make it any card. Like harbinger.
I mean if you look thru a shipwreck looking for treasure you might find an octopus instead. I donít know about you but an octopus 🐙 just screams action. But just an idea. Either way itís still pretty cool. And if itís just treasure then it really is like an herbalist cause your usually aware of what treasures lurk in your discard pile. Sorry I couldnít help it.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2018, 08:00:24 pm »
+1

set needs an octopus card.

McGarnacle

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2018, 10:16:41 pm »
+1

This looks amazing! Nice to see a completed fan expansion.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 12:35:07 pm »
+2

set needs an octopus card.

Mistakes were made.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 07:40:20 pm »
+1

Tomb raider is interesting. An attack card that removes attack cards from other hands. Someone who hates attack cards and never buys them themselves will buy as many of these as they can if thereís at least one other attack card pile. Also if the player doesnít have an attack card. You can get a copy of a treasure in thier hand. Which would be more useful towards the middle to the end for a gold or other good treasure cards. And if the attack doesnít work or you canít copy a treasure worth coping at least you always have another action. And if you had 2 tomb raiders in your hand. You being player 1. Player 2 and 3 both the first time had to discard an attack. And player 4 didnít so you got to gain a copy of his gold. Then the second time you played it player 2 had to discard another attack. Player 3 didnít so you gained a copy of his harem. And another gold from player 4. In that way this could be too powerful for a card costing 3. 5 might be better all around so that it keeps you from getting too many of them. And by the time you have a couple of them. It will be more useful to you anyway. And if tomb raider is the only attack card in the game you could get 3 silvers or 3 golds each time you played it. So itís already stronger than bandit. And bandit costs 5. So it costing 5 or 6 would be better. And the only way to weaken this card is to put bandit fort the landmark in the game. However if you want to keep it at 3. Why donít you tweak it a little bit. Like for instance if someone canít discard an attack cause they donít have one, why donít you gain a silver or +1💵treasure for each who canít. This way you donít end up depleting the gold pile before every other pile. Like I said just tweak a little and it would be perfect card. And if you donít it wonít hurt my feelings. I would love to gain a few golds and discard other players attack cards in a singe turn, With still a lot more benefits in my turn.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 07:42:58 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2018, 08:03:29 pm »
+1

Riches is wonky. Yeah you could use it to get rid of all your coppers but then you would never buy silver or gold or any other treasure unless you didnít play it when riches was being played. Like harem maybe. But everyone would buying riches. There wouldnít be enough to go around for a for a 4 player game especially cause it would be worth buying other strong treasures like gold or platinum. In a two player game. All the provinces would be bought easily. Each 2 player game would only take like ten minutes and the game would be over. Especially if you have a lot of actions that give you extra treasure. The only way I could see it working. Is if you made it cost 7 instead and then made the trashing optional. Or must trash one other treasure per riches so that way damage to your deck can minimized. Because if you keep it the way it the way it is your only hurting yourself by buying it. So basically itís a deadly version of rats. At least with rats you usually have other cards that can trash rats and sometimes fortress to keep rats in check. And in a 3 or 4 player game you would have to limit what other cards you buy to the the actions that give treasure. And assuming you are able to keep all your coppers. Having a few storytellers and a couple of riches and another card that you gives you a + 1 buy, you could buy multiple provinces in a singe turn almost every turn.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2018, 08:11:39 pm »
+1

Sarcophagus is definitely my favorite of the next 3 cards. Itís a procession and Iíll gotten gains variant. A little stronger but better. I donít think it needs tweaking at all. Iíll gotten gains costed 5 but your benefit is a lot better. And just like Iíll gotten gains itís got the same theme.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 05:16:12 am »
+1

Riches is wonky. Yeah you could use it to get rid of all your coppers but then you would never buy silver or gold or any other treasure unless you didnít play it when riches was being played. Like harem maybe. But everyone would buying riches. There wouldnít be enough to go around for a for a 4 player game especially cause it would be worth buying other strong treasures like gold or platinum. In a two player game. All the provinces would be bought easily. Each 2 player game would only take like ten minutes and the game would be over. Especially if you have a lot of actions that give you extra treasure. The only way I could see it working. Is if you made it cost 7 instead and then made the trashing optional. Or must trash one other treasure per riches so that way damage to your deck can minimized. Because if you keep it the way it the way it is your only hurting yourself by buying it. So basically itís a deadly version of rats. At least with rats you usually have other cards that can trash rats and sometimes fortress to keep rats in check. And in a 3 or 4 player game you would have to limit what other cards you buy to the the actions that give treasure. And assuming you are able to keep all your coppers. Having a few storytellers and a couple of riches and another card that you gives you a + 1 buy, you could buy multiple provinces in a singe turn almost every turn.

Riches actually looks broken to me, it would still be a strong Copper trasher if it only gave +$1, but trashing ~2 Coppers at the same time as giving +$4 and letting you play the Coppers for money that turn too? Yeah that's clearly too much. And this can continue to be used as a +$4 treasure even after your Coppers are trashed if you refrain from picking up other treasures, most trashers just become useless cards once you're done trashing with them.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 06:19:10 am »
+1

Grave watcher where do I start? First of all itís not much of an attack. Even tomb raider is more of an attack than this one. The problem is your not going to get to use it as an attack very often. Unless you gain most the curses and most of the grave watchers. And if thatís all the cards you had in your deck you might win. I sopose if you put this with riches you would have some strong turns. Thatís only if there in the same game. And you would have to keep yourself limited to buying just grave watcher, riches, victories, and maybe an action with a +1 buy. But the problem is an action usually needs to be self sufficient. Grave watcher really isnít. There would probably still need to be an attack card that gives out curses. So you can maybe have one when you first play this. Otherwise itís the throne room dilemma all over again as an example. Now I do like the attack effect itís pretty cool. But gaining curses is the wrong way to do it. You would be better off just making the attack work every time and giving grave watcher a -1 Victory as in making it a new type of curse.If you get past the occasional attack part. Gaining curses just so you make +3 treasure and +1 action. Is crazy. You might do it once or twice. And it will probably help with your buy. But it would be crazy to do any more than that. And you wouldnít even think about doing it if there was no way to trash em. And of course itís useless if all curses are depleted. So it comes down to a one time use with sarcophagus. And only if sarcophagus and a curse are already in your hand. Even saboteur would be better and it doesnít have even have a gain. So grave watcher might need to be tweaked. Otherwise itís almost always going to be one of those cards no one buys during the game. I think this is worse than riches. Cause your lowering your score for just 3 extra treasure. And maybe a cool attack later in the game. And 4 treasure (riches) is better than 3.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 06:23:31 am »
+1

Aquifer is okay. You might want to tweak it just a little bit. First of all make it a little bit more like tunnel. So that way margrave letís gain another one as as oasis ect. Then make it cost like 3 or 4.
Like I said itís so so. If you want to make it better than average, thatís a suggestion.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 06:29:36 am »
+1

Collector is a gamble. After you discard the card of course. Why donít you just make the trashing optional or make it an attack so that everyone trashes too except they get down 1 you get 2 or 3  up.
I know the second idea isnít much better. But at least everyone else will be in the same gamble boat with you. And of course you would have to make it an attack card too. And I know my ideas donít really make this card any better than so so. Itís all I can think of. But something tells me the other members will have better ideas.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 06:34:20 am by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 06:42:13 am »
+1

So far sarcophagus and shipwreck are my favorites. If they were in the game as they were with no changes I would still play with them. Especially sarcophagus. You clearly have some cool cards I canít wait to see them all. And aquifer and tomb raider well tomb raider is pretty powerful and I do like powerful cards but other players wonít. As for aquifer itís just a little weak. I might still use it depending how often I can get strong buys in a game.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 12:39:52 pm »
0

Woo, I missed a bunch of the responses, sorry, will try to catch up. Thank you all for you comments!

I might need to do a "secret history of" at some point. It's been suggested, and I'm a narcissist, so why not?

First off let me clear up a misconception on Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider only ever lets you gain one card per turn. So in ClouduHieh's example of the double-Tomb Raider turn, on the second time your play Tomb Raider, when player 3 reveals Harem and player 4 reveals Gold, you are going to need to choose whether you want a Harem or a Gold, and pick that one. Perhaps I need to slightly adjust the text to make this more obvious (e.g., You gain a copy of one Treasure revealed this way.)

Grave Watcher, this is sort of a janky card for sure, but I do like it. If there was one thing I would change it would be to rethink the curse yourself, but really the set is done except for proofreading, plus if something is totally broken. I ran a WIP thread for months. That was the place to argue about design. But don't think I'm not listening and taking things to heart, even if I sound grumpy about it. Grave Watcher is all about presenting the player with a bad decision. Do you make it non-terminal? Do you move yourself from $7 in hand to $8? But don't let it go to your head, it's going to lose you the game if you're not careful. This thing could have been "mephistopheles" or "infernal contract" except then it was in too much danger of being clobbered by Nocturne (Nocturne was coming out when I was working on it.)

Then the attack; the attack was shoehorned in for two reasons. One, I realized I didn't have enough attacks in the game. Two, at one point this card was called "Pixiu", a Chinese dog/dragon thing that guards money and brings financial luck. So I gave it a financial luck attack. The attack rarely happens though, so it can be obnoxious but it isn't super obnoxious. As it is though, you never want to buy Grave Watchers for the attack, you buy them for the flexibility to make bad decisions. It turns out that Antiquities ends up having a whole bunch of attacks that can miss; it's almost worth saying that it's a theme of the set.

Collector, there's a weird thing that happens when you do designs. Sometimes a card that is bad gets popular with a certain segment of the fanbase. In this case, my fanbase is very small (20 people? that might be generous) and the segment of the fanbase is my wife. Since she is the person who I will play these cards with the most, her opinion matters. Anyways originally it had only the bottom rule, no looking at the top card. Also it would dump the gained card into your discard pile, so you'd really lose all the time, since you couldn't play it. So she would play this card every time she could and it would just tank her game. It was terrible. But she still used it every time. So eventually I buffed it to put the card back where you found it, which normally means you are at least breaking even every time you use it. Even then it still wasn't worth her focus. The randomness was just too, you know, random. At the same time I was reading every single entry in the Interview with Donald X for design insights to make the set better, plus more authentic, and realized I was lacking in "non-attack interactions" so I decided to add the top. If the testing still meant the card was bad all the time, I could increase the number of cards you scry before doing the random upgrade. But it appears that one is just fine. By the time I was doing all this, I had already ordered the art. If I hadn't, I would have renamed the card to "Gambler", since ClouduHieh is totally right, it's almost a total gamble.

Riches has a huge page of opinions (mostly that it is broken OP) in the WIP thread, but my testing didn't line up to the allegations that it is broken. I've never had it run away with a game yet. Eventually some players started pointing out that it's hard to use in a broken way. I'm not going to defend it though, just go read the WIP thread. But, again, like I said on reddit, the problem with my test group is that we're probably B or C-tier players. A and S tier players may be able to single-handedly use this card to go insane things. At least in Dominion a card is always available to everyone to use, as long as it doesn't become the only strategy that makes any sense every time it appears.

I am going to modify the rules to make it more obvious that having 2 Riches in play means you just blew up both Riches, though.

Thanks so much for the attention and respect you're giving this set, though! I always hope I don't sound too dismissive. I appreciate all of it, criticism included!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 12:58:23 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 01:05:02 pm »
+1

Also to bring in more context for people, here are the cards revealed so far on my twitter.


I totally made it unnecessary to go to my twitter. I suck at social media.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:19:18 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 01:07:49 pm »
0

Oh man, other secret history. Sarcophagus used to not have a limit on the cost of the card in the supply that you used it with. Then we tested it with Hunting Grounds.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 01:11:04 pm »
+1

Recommend making smaller versions of the images for the purposes of posting online (and post just links to the high-res versions if people want to print them out). Not sure if it's because of Imgur's speed or what, but this thread is taking an extremely long time to load for me.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2018, 01:19:57 pm »
0

I just switched them to imgur "Large Thumbnails". Let me know if that helped.

Edit: now when they expand they fit in your screen, too.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 03:53:53 pm »
0

I just switched them to imgur "Large Thumbnails". Let me know if that helped.

Edit: now when they expand they fit in your screen, too.

Much better!
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Thanar

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 04:07:34 pm »
0

Thanks for these great cards. I'm planning to print out the whole set.

Will there eventually be a place where all the cards will be available in hi-res and with a consistent image size? That would make it much easier for me to combine the images and print them out on my printer.

Currently, most of the hi-res images from twitter are jpg with some as png (Shipwreck, Stronghold, Tomb Raider).
For Moundbuilder Village, I somehow managed to get it in both jpg and png (not sure how).

The image sizes are also not consistent:
 
Moundbuilder Village.jpg , Tomb Raider.png and the rest of the .jpgs are 1336x2048
Moundbuilder Village.png , Shipwreck.png and Stronghold.png are 1403x2151


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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 06:39:33 pm »
0

Thanar, thank you so much, that's incredible!

I'm interested in how you plan to print them; I'm also planning to print them out. Maybe we should compare notes.
The cards will all be available on my Imgur at some point. If that is not acceptable, PM me when I finish the reveals (when the rules + app are out) and I'll send you a zip with the originals.

I'm a bit worried about the size things. Maybe it's this forum vs Twitter that is the issue? Anyhow I'll do my best to make sure at some point they are consistent. When I link the full album for public consumption, let me know if they are inconsistent. I'll want to make sure they are as good as possible.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 07:29:33 pm »
+1

Oh man, other secret history. Sarcophagus used to not have a limit on the cost of the card in the supply that you used it with. Then we tested it with Hunting Grounds.

It's still ultra broken. Playing Sarcophagus with 2 cost reduction active lets you gain and play the entire Sarcophagus pile, then a bunch of copies of whatever other actions. Even using it on a plain cantrip makes it Lost City. And it curses opponents?

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2018, 07:32:59 pm »
+1

Yes, I noticed the Sarcophagus-pile-draining ability with $2 cost reduction as well. I think a good solution for that issue is to make Sarcophagus cost an appropriate amount of debt, instead of a coin cost, eliminating the possibility of playing 2 of itself, no matter what $ cost reduction is in effect.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 07:35:57 pm by Thanar »
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singletee

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2018, 07:34:48 pm »
+1

Yes, I noticed the pile-draining ability with $2 cost reduction as well. I think a good solution for it is to make Sarcophagus cost an appropriate amount of debt, instead of a coin cost, eliminating the possibility of gaining 2 of itself, no matter what $ cost reduction is in effect.

Yeah, either that, or go the Vampire route, and just have it specify non-Sarcophagus.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2018, 08:31:59 pm »
+2

Aquifer is a Peddler with a drawback (being that it's only non-terminal for other Aquifers) that comes with an extra benefit of a rarely relevant Reaction--especially since it can only be triggered during your turn which strongly limits the number of cards that can activate it.
Peddler is typically valued at about $4.5, and I think the drawback is significant enough to pull it down to $3-ish. That Reaction is not worth much. I'd guess Aquifer is weak.

Artifact gives a lot of really hard to math options since you have to think about the cost of the Treasure, the $ production of the Treasure, and that Artifact itself produces $1.
It's options come out to be: $1; or $2, gain a Copper; or if $>=$2 then $0, gain a Silver; or if $>=$5 -$2 gain a Gold; and I won't bother with what gaining additional Artifacts will look like since it puts you back in the loop. I don't think it's all that strong either, so I'm not sure it's worth the headache when you have the much more compelling Treasure Trove and Lucky Coin

Riches forced trash will typically be a huge benefit. Even just using it once with a bunch of Coppers to slim your deck down and never playing it again (as though it were Chapel) will probably make it really good, let alone that one could possibly play it with one or two Coppers to buy whatever you wanted and slim at the same time. It should probably cost $5, maybe even $6.
Whatever it's worth: I cannot imagine a Kingdom where I wouldn't open with Riches as written. Even if I got a 5\2 split, I'd probably only open favor strong junkers over Riches.

I would guess that Sarcophagus is overpowered. Multiplayer games will likely be miserably short with it between draining Action piles via Sarcophagi plays which will be common because of the on-buy that encourages Sarcophagi to be spam-bought. That on-buy is such a good effect that it takes a sub-$2 card into a $5 card in Ill-Gotten Gains.
I'd drop the on-buy and increase its cost to $7.

Collector, Grave Watcher, and Tomb Raider are cute and unique.
I like that Collector's benefit to all players works to enable other players' Collectors, while its one-card trashing is balanced by forcing to gain a card sharing a type with it (meaning that hitting an Estate turn 3\4 isn't a game-win). Could you name it Financier with that art? It might be a bit anachronistic.
Grave Watcher is a Copper junker, but is bounded by aligning it with a Curse which I think keeps it sufficiently in check.
Tomb Raider is probably more useful as a defense against other Attacks than a Treasure copier, but all its pieces come together nicely.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2018, 09:33:40 am »
0

Thanks for the feedback and interest, guys!

After careful consideration, I've decided to give some significant nerfs to Sarcophagus. Sarcophagus will now only play the targeted card once, and will only be able to target cards that cost "up to $2 less than it."

Overall, I realized that this makes Sarcophagus still better than Band of Misfits, a $5 card, as it will trigger on-gain and on-trash events, and retain its own on-buy Curse event. While this makes the Sarcophagus less attractive than when it was an OPAF throne, it's still a lot of power to pack into a mere $1 cost increase vs Band of Misfits.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2018, 10:03:54 am »
+1

Thanks for the feedback and interest, guys!

After careful consideration, I've decided to give some significant nerfs to Sarcophagus. Sarcophagus will now only play the targeted card once, and will only be able to target cards that cost "up to $2 less than it."

Overall, I realized that this makes Sarcophagus still better than Band of Misfits, a $5 card, as it will trigger on-gain and on-trash events, and retain its own on-buy Curse event. While this makes the Sarcophagus less attractive than when it was an OPAF throne, it's still a lot of power to pack into a mere $1 cost increase vs Band of Misfits.

It's not always better than Band of Misfits though, as it loses any while-in-play abilities of cards. To me, the big questions is if it's different enough from Band of Misfits to be worth having. And I think the answer is "probably". But it's still best to think of it as a Band of Misfits variant. One that benefits from on-gain and on-trash, while not benefiting from while-in-play. And also has the interesting side effect of draining piles. Also, with things like Watchtower, you can keep the card, which sounds like a powerful combo. Oh, you also get to keep any Reserve cards you gain with it. That might be too good.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2018, 11:07:57 am »
0

Hmm, I just realized that there is no official ruling on what happens to the effect that occurs on your next turn if you trash a Duration card that is in play.

I would assume that there is a Variants and Fan Cards precedent, though. If so, can someone tell me what it is?

Otherwise I will have to make a ruling, which may very well be that Sarcophagus stays in play until the Duration card is finished, then trashes it.

Edit: Ignore me; Procession has the same quirks.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 01:21:56 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2018, 03:44:51 pm »
+1

Hmm, I just realized that there is no official ruling on what happens to the effect that occurs on your next turn if you trash a Duration card that is in play.

I would assume that there is a Variants and Fan Cards precedent, though. If so, can someone tell me what it is?

Otherwise I will have to make a ruling, which may very well be that Sarcophagus stays in play until the Duration card is finished, then trashes it.

Edit: Ignore me; Procession has the same quirks.

Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession, but Bonfire. Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2018, 04:43:32 pm »
+1

Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession, but Bonfire. Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.

Hmm, according to the Procession wiki article:
Quote
If you use Procession on a Duration card, Procession will be discarded in the same turn's Clean-up, since the Duration card will no longer be in play.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Sarcophagused card will be trashed immediately after it is first played (before the 'next turn' is resolved) and Sarcophagus will be discarded. Then the next turn effect will trigger anyhow, but without the card being in play.

I dislike this a fair bit, but it is the official rules.
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GendoIkari

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2018, 05:42:36 pm »
+1

Yeah there's definitely official rules. Not just Procession, but Bonfire. Duration cards definitely don't have to do their normal thing next turn. The official rules would also cause Sarcophagus to stay in play until next turn.

Hmm, according to the Procession wiki article:
Quote
If you use Procession on a Duration card, Procession will be discarded in the same turn's Clean-up, since the Duration card will no longer be in play.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the Sarcophagused card will be trashed immediately after it is first played (before the 'next turn' is resolved) and Sarcophagus will be discarded. Then the next turn effect will trigger anyhow, but without the card being in play.

I dislike this a fair bit, but it is the official rules.

Right, forgot that rule was actually changed. In the Seaside rules (first edition); cards that played Durations stayed in play until the Duration was done doing anything. But it was later errata'd to be discarded when the Duration is discarded.

Actually the new rule's wording seems inaccurate; it says they are discarded at the same time as the Duration card, but in the case of Procession; that Duration card is never discarded. It should say discarded during the cleanup phase of the turn that the Duration left play.

If you don't like the effect it has on Sarcophagus, there's 2 options...

1) Limit it to non-Duration cards.

2) Trash the card next turn instead of this one. But that's kind of terrible; you have to make Sarcophagus a Duration also, and then it only makes sense when playing other Durations.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 05:44:28 pm by GendoIkari »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2018, 06:13:56 pm »
+2

GendoIkari, thanks so much for your replies. Your insights and experience are super helpful.

I have a third option, which could be to say "when it [the played card] leaves play, trash it." This would fix the duration issue but I'd have to look at all the other odd cards to see what it would do with them.

Update: I've decided to just go with the official rules; and not try to tamper with it. If I chose "when it leaves play, trash it," then the card would be confusing in cases of the lose track of rule -- if the card leaves play for a reason other than Sarcophagus, players might interpret "when it leaves play, trash it" as interrupting that and trashing the card (it wouldn't.) Plus then you lose the cool interaction of the card not staying in play, making the card more of a Band of Misfits clone. But the real clincher is Cultist. If Sarcophagus trashes a Cultist during Clean-up, what happens? It's not worth the headache.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 11:44:01 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Fragasnap

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2018, 08:59:28 pm »
+1

I definitely don't like Sarcophagus with it only playing cards once plus the Ill-Gotten Gains clause.
It stomps all over Ill-Gotten Gains, is made incredibly similar to Band of Misfits, and doesn't resolve my biggest issue anyway: That multiplayer games are likely to end quickly by draining piles.

If you don't mind a crazy wholesale suggestion:
Quote
Sarcophagus
Types: Action
Cost: $6
Gain an Action other than Sarcophagus from the trash, playing it twice. When it leaves play, return it to the Supply.
Setup: Put one of each Action other than Sarcophagus into the trash per player.
This can double everything only once per player without extra trashing, but it can't end the game because it is putting cards back into the Supply (which lets it avert timing issues with trashing during Clean-Up while also avoiding the annoyance of Duration tracking).
You could also vary the setup clause to put different Actions into the trash, but with the limited number of plays and the loss of the Ill-Gotten Gains effect, I think playing anything will be okay.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2018, 11:57:30 pm »
+1

Option 1 for sarcophagus would be good. Iím creating my own enchantress variant. But Iím keeping all durations and reserves out of the equation. So you could do the same. My fan expansion is called snowline.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2018, 12:00:43 am »
+1

And donít forget lurker, and grave robber they can effect sarcophagus too. But donít worry too much about. An expansion on its own doesnít always have to work well with other expansions. Nocturne for instance.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2018, 12:20:30 am »
+1

Thatís why I liked it sarcophagus that is cause it was like Iíll gotten gains but better. It does cost 6 so it is a little harder to buy. Iím probably an A player but most of my friends are C players and maybe 2 of them are B players. So when making an expansion for you and your friends itís okay to have a few powerful cards. C players arenít really gonna pick up on the overpowering thing. And it ends the game a little earlier so what. Half of time we never finish the game anyway and see who had the most points at that point. One time we had game where player won with 12 points as the highest score and 2 players had a minus score. And we still had a blast! Cause in the end all that matters is if you and your friends had fun. So it doesnít matter if some of your cards are overpowered, a gamble or like feast from the bace game (useless). And that was made by creator of dominion.

I love artifact! Itís the treasure variant of storyteller.

Looking forward to seeing the rest of your cards.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2018, 03:07:50 pm »
+1

Inspector isnít horrible but itís not much of an attack. Cause you have to hurt yourself in order to hurt them. Unless you play it and you end up with only good cards in your hand. Which in this case itís better than embassy you could still have to discard a lot of good cards with that one. But with inspector if you have to discard some good cards they may also have to discard too. But that doesnít happen to mid game before you start buying nothing but provinces. Also it doesnít work too well with weak cards. Cause if you discard a copper and a estate. They can choose to discard the estate if they have it which they probably will. So you may have to discard 2 coppers which may not help you either. If you wanted to make it a slightly better attack. Why donít you instead make it where you discard yours that you revealed. But instead of them discarding the card (estate) they topdeck it. That way it slightly ruins there next draw. And in this case they might go with copper more often. And in this case if you discarded 2 victory cards they would have to topdeck one. Which would make more like burrecrat an attack card that becomes more useful at the end of the game.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2018, 06:21:28 pm »
0

Hi guys! Thanks again for the feedback and attention!

Fragasnap, while I'm unlikely to change the Sarcophagus much more than I already have (because of testing burden) I really, really like your idea, although it would lead to the game ending fast as well (4 player game? piles only have 6 cards!) so I'd probably do it as 2 of each action in the trash.

ClouduHieh, I do really like the idea of Inspectors putting cards on top of the deck. I'll try it out.

On other news, I am also trying out a version of Aquifer that replaces the reaction with just being able to choose to gain an Aquifer, and maybe costs $4.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2018, 03:41:14 pm »
+1

Sorry, everyone, I've been late in posting the new art reveals:

This is a rules update to prevent the first-come-then-win exploitation of this card.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:42:53 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2018, 04:10:41 pm »
0

So Sarcophagus is now a mixture between BoM and IGG. The previous double-play version was in my opinion more interesting and could have easily fixed via preventing the card from gaining, throning and trashing all cards but itself.

While similar to Festival and Conclave Agora looks sound.

Archaeologist is good but I would price it at $6 (better than Catacombs so it cannot cost $5).

Inspector is pretty bad. Like worse than +2 Cards. You want to discard junk anyway so the Attack doesn't really hurt unless it is multiplayer, you have 3 cards left in your hand after two previous Inspector attacks, you play Inspector and then have to discard something good.

Profiteer looks inflexible and bad compared to Bridge. The Reaction is pretty restrictive as it only does something in the presence of gainers. But even then, e.g. Workshop, gain $4, discard a Profiteer to exchange for Gold, discard a Profiteer to exchange for Province is not impressive.

Boulder Trap
is a neat idea. I especially like that Indy is female now and would suggest to put a bit of the rules onto the card, kind of like with Changeling.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2018, 04:20:00 pm »
0

Agora looks bad. Festival is already kinda meh, and this just seems like a worse version. Villages + Silver gainers don't usually go well together.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2018, 04:25:53 pm »
0

With boulder trap, the issue becomes formatting; it theory it should be something like

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $3
-1VP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain a card from the top of a Supply pile, if this is the next card, gain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom pile.

That gets a bit crazy. But I will definitely entertain any feedback on how to avoid having three horizontal lines on the card.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2018, 04:37:45 pm »
+1

You could get rid of one line via something like this:

In games using this, during Setup shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom Supply pile and put the piles face down with the top card face up. When you gain a card, if this is the next card, also gain it.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2018, 03:23:22 am »
0

Sarcophagus could say "Trash it when it leaves play". At least from my latest point of knowledge, a card is still in play while leaving play (Band of Misfits can do Hermit's discard stuff), so lose-track doesn't apply. Unless that has changed, too, by now. Lose-track applies to me.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2018, 02:12:41 pm »
0

With boulder trap, the issue becomes formatting; it theory it should be something like

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $3
-1VP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain a card from the top of a Supply pile, if this is the next card, gain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom pile.

That gets a bit crazy. But I will definitely entertain any feedback on how to avoid having three horizontal lines on the card.

I don't think you need to do this. If there are other Traps, printing all of the Trap rules on every card definitely seems like overkill. Also, the whole point of the weird border color is to tell people that they need to crack open the rulebook instead of wasting space on every card. It's not like Night Cards all say, "You can only play this after the Buy phase."
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2018, 10:29:27 am »
0

With boulder trap, the issue becomes formatting; it theory it should be something like

Quote
Boulder Trap - Trap - $3
-1VP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you trash this, each other player gains a Curse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you gain a card from the top of a Supply pile, if this is the next card, gain it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Shuffle one Boulder Trap into each Kingdom pile.

That gets a bit crazy. But I will definitely entertain any feedback on how to avoid having three horizontal lines on the card.

I don't think you need to do this. If there are other Traps, printing all of the Trap rules on every card definitely seems like overkill. Also, the whole point of the weird border color is to tell people that they need to crack open the rulebook instead of wasting space on every card. It's not like Night Cards all say, "You can only play this after the Buy phase."

^^This. In reality, I'll be distributing a rulebook.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2018, 10:14:17 am »
0

Looks like I've been breaking images by changing them, go figure. People keep asking me to make changes.

Here's a link to the final album. All art is final other than the Token, which is getting a bit of a facelift.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:32:51 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2018, 10:53:16 am »
+1

Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I think Artifact could be "pay any amount of (coins). You may gain...", although a "problem" there is that you may spend money and still get nothing.

I think I like Encroach (although I never heard that word before).

Trashing Graveyard with Watchtower in a Tomb game generates unbounded VP.

Prospector reminds me of something I tried to do once, but does it better. I might have mentioned this before.

Doesn't Riches make it awfully easy to buy Provinces? Buy Riches, buy Silver, trash all but Riches and buy Province, buy Riches, trash Riches and buy Province... I guess colliding two Riches isn't trivial, but even a single one is enough to get another Riches. I recommend trying out a stupid Riches-rush at least once to see where it gets you.

Sarcophagus' wording is unclear. I know this is dumb, but I genuinely misunderstood it at first, at least common sense tells me that I did.

Stronghold has too much text.

I assume discarding a Relic isn't revealing a Treasure for Tomb Hunter? As the revealing is an important part of the card, I wouldn't put it into parantheses here.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2018, 12:31:55 pm »
+1

Asper, I really appreciate your thoughts, especially Agora and Graveyard. I'll make sure Graveyards can't gain Graveyards from the trash and I'm going to get a migraine thinking about what to do to make sure Agora doesn't gain unlimited silvers to your hand.

I've done stupid Riches-rush before, it usually fizzles out before you win, although if you are the only one buying Riches you can get 5 Provinces with them if they all align nicely.

Discarding a Relic isn't revealing a Treasure. You would discard Relic, rather than reveal that you can't. I'll make a note to mention that in the rulebook.

I may massage Sarcophagus a bit to make it worded better. Its wording is a relic from when it was a Procession+Throne Room and might be better said.
Edit: I actually already have, just not uploaded it: "Gain an Action card costing up to $2 less than this and play it. When it leaves play, trash it."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 04:34:29 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2018, 06:01:00 pm »
0

About Sarcophagus, if I remember correctly, Saboteur used the same wording. So it's not like it's actually wrong, more like, if you came to think of a better wording, that would be neat. "Up to X" stuff seems goofy, but maybe "that costs less than this by at least 2"? It's the best I can think of.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2018, 12:23:19 pm »
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Actually (despite vowing that I wasn't going to make design changes to any cards!) I've been trying a less complex version of Stronghold.

It seems balanced well at $5, but someone please point out where it's broken as hell:

Quote
Stronghold - Action-Reaction $5
Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile, trash a card from it, and put a card from it into your hand.
-
When you would trash a card, you may first reveal this from your hand, to instead discard the card.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2018, 01:05:53 am »
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I love pharaoh! Now thatís an attack card! Powerful gain powerful attack and only if you gain 4 golds. It might be a little too powerful though. I didnít bother to look what the others said about it. But maybe it would be better costing 9. Or make it give out something else that is -2 V. Meaning make a new card. Thatís a minus score. Iíve done it! Iíve made at least 3 cards that are minus points. Like your boulder trap. And I have 2 cards that give out 2 different minus score cards. Avalanche gives out firn villages to each player a a snow shoes to the person who plays it. By the way Incase you didnít know firn is what you call a ton compacted snow. So itís definitely a theme to it. And firn villages are regular villages with a -2 V. And they canít be trashed either. Thatís where snow shoes comes in. Itís basically a masquerade. The only way to get rid of firn village. Cause itís like fortress.

So try something like that maybe. But regardless awesome attack. 👍
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2018, 01:25:39 am »
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Snake charmer is awesome! Mostly just cause I like snakes. Most players wonít want a curse so they will trash. The beginning of the game itís actually helping them. Cause it gets rid of most useless cards. Towards the end of the game it might hit them a few times. But in reality the problem is taking a curse is probably better than trashing a gold or a powerful 5 card. And the fact by then all the curses will probably be gone anyway. So the attack isnít really much of an attack.

Why donít you make so they have to trash an action in order to prevent getting a curse. That way itís an attack either way. Either they lose an action which sets them back or they take a curse. And then of course they will be forced to buy snake charmer as well especially if itís the only way to trash. Then itís more useful to you throughout the game until you run out of curses anyway. And then this way if they want to avoid curses they may end up buying actions they donít usually buy.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2018, 01:56:55 am »
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Mendicant.   First of all I must say I love copper strategies. But Iím not too big on gaining estates. Why donít you make it a duchy instead. And make it cost 5. So itís a little harder to get. And make it so you can only get one duchy per buy phase. Cause throne rooming or playing more than one might be chaotic it might get you a bunch of victory points but it would also ruin your deck too soon. Especially if it was multiple estates.

Hereís another idea.

Instead of a simple gain. Why donít you make it like this.

+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a copper to your hand.
óóóóóóóóóóóóóóó
At the end of your buy phase if you have no other treasure besides copper in play. You may trash a victory card from your hand. And then gain a duchy.

This way you could still keep it at 4$ and you wouldnít be able to gain to many duchies at once. Also you would have to buy extra estates if you wanted more than 3 duchies. And you wouldnít probably get 3 duchies in a turn even if you 3 mendicants in play. Also it wouldnít be quite like rebuild cause you could never go above a duchy. And also you could make it a little more interesting. Instead of saying duchy you could say a victory costing up to 6$. That would make it more useful if you were playing with other expansions. Like fairgrounds, Duke, Silk Road, tunnel, farmland would be epic!, the castles up to haunted castle, distant lands, island, nobles, harem, mill, feodum, gardens, Shepard and cemetary. And still keep out province, colony, some of the castles, and the one of kind vineyard.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2018, 10:28:43 am »
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On the subject on Mendicant, I recently learned that I've been playing Dominion wrong all along in respect to Estates piles. I've always played with the whole stack of Estates, but it turns out that you only play with 8 extra Estates or 12 extra Estates, depending on number of players. So this makes Mendicant a lot weaker, since you can't go full Mendicant mode and run nothing but Mendicant turns for like 3 turns for many points. I may need to consider buffing this guy somehow. I think cantripping into Duchies is too strong though.
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2018, 05:37:05 pm »
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On the subject on Mendicant, I recently learned that I've been playing Dominion wrong all along in respect to Estates piles. I've always played with the whole stack of Estates, but it turns out that you only play with 8 extra Estates or 12 extra Estates, depending on number of players. So this makes Mendicant a lot weaker, since you can't go full Mendicant mode and run nothing but Mendicant turns for like 3 turns for many points. I may need to consider buffing this guy somehow. I think cantripping into Duchies is too strong though.

Don't change your card, just change the game!

Mendicant
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Copper to your hand.
At the start of your Clean-up phase this turn, if you have no non-Copper cards in play, you may gain an Estate.
------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Add Estates to its pile until you have X Estates.

<OR>

Setup: Add X Estates to its pile per player.

Also, "the end" of a phase is hard to define. "At the start of" is much more clear.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 05:42:53 pm by Kudasai »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2018, 08:33:57 pm »
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Or why donít you create a new victory card that isnít part of the supply that mendicant can give out. Like how urchin becomes mercenary. It can still have 1 V like estate but give it an action effect too. And you can still give out estates when run out of the other card.

Just a thought.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2018, 04:22:45 am »
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Or why donít you create a new victory card that isnít part of the supply that mendicant can give out. Like how urchin becomes mercenary. It can still have 1 V like estate but give it an action effect too. And you can still give out estates when run out of the other card.

Just a thought.

Because you'd need a whole bunch of them and Estate already exists.

I like Kudasai's suggestion, although admittedly I have a hard time understanding what kind of play style Mendicant wants to enable...

Is it supposed to reward you most for a Treasure-less engine? In that case, why not give out a Curse for 2 VP? Curses scale with player count, and if you do your engine effectively, you can trash them again,furthering the theme.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2018, 11:14:04 am »
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Mendicant is a classic example of a bottom up design making your head hurt. It's trying to work with Lore, not with Strategies! The problem with having bought art as well is, you can't change the card away from its lore too much, or else you have to buy more art!

In practice it's really only good in a totally slogging situation, when there's a lot of junk flying around already. The idea is that Mendicant is a holy man, like a friar or something. He begs (coppers) and if you reject worldly wealth (Treasures that are not copper) you will eventually be rewarded with heavenly rewards (VP.)

Except it turned out that he was actually OP if he gave out VP tokens, so I changed it to Estates. You want a bunch of Mendicants in a later turn, and then you get the Estates.

Kudasai's solution is pretty good, actually. I've also tampered with ideas like "In games using this, Estates are worth +1VP if you have more than 15 Coppers." but the test burden is hard.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2018, 11:49:38 pm »
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I was thinking you would only have to create 12 of the new victory card. But never mind.

You could also make mendicant worth victory points for the amount of coppers you have. Like 1 for every 5 coppers. It wouldnít  really change the theme. I mean if he really is sopose to be a holy man. He should be worth some victory points too. I mean nobles, duke and harem are people worth victory points so why isnít a mendicant worth some victory points too.

I mean since you would gain a copper every time you play it. If you were playing a 4 player game. You would run risk of depleting the copper pile anyway so why not just make mendicant even more useful. If you played your cards right you could make mendicant worth more than a duchy at least.

And itís not like a copper strategy is really such a bad way to play. Otherwise there wouldnít already be so many cards that work with a copper strategy. My personal favorites being storyteller and apothecary. Like I said I love copper strategies. And you would be surprised how many games I have won with those cards as well as Iíll gotten gains. Playing online Iíve won almost every time with a copper strategy if at least 1 of those cards was in the game. And one time I even won when the only copper strategy was fountain. Everyone else trashed most of their coppers but I bought 3 more and got 15 extra victory points. Once I did that they werenít able to catch up. One player even said if fountain is in the game heís making sure not miss out on those points ever again. Thatís worth more than 2 provinces and duchy. I think they forgot it was there, since there were so many ways to trash cards in that game. I mean bishop and forager was in the game.

I think itís cool as it is I just donít know if getting estates is the way to go.

Ooh how about the inheritance token from adventures. What if mendicant allowed you to put the inheritance token on the mendicant pile so that all your estates become the mendicant. You could do it as a reward.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:15:37 am by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2018, 12:25:49 am »
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+1 card
+1 Action
Gain a copper to your hand.
óóóóóóóóó
During your buy phase if you have no other treasures in play besides copper. gain an estate, then you may discard 2 estates, if you did you may put your inheritance token on the mendicant pile.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2018, 04:02:24 am »
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Ah, I forgot that Mendicant gained Copper to your hand. How about removing that and pushing the cards towards an engine in the way I suggested? For example:

+1 Card
+1 Action
(+1 Coin?)
When you discard this from play, if you have no Treasures in play, you may gain a Curse to take +2 (3?) VP.

You might want to look into the discussion my card Hospital stirred up ages ago. It was:

Hospital, Action, 4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Copper to your hand. If you do:+1VP

It was too good when trashing was around and too weak otherwise.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2018, 11:36:35 am »
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I'm currently trying to test something like:

Mendicant $4.
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a copper to your hand.
You may return an Estate to the supply for +1 VP. If you don't, gain an Estate to your hand.

I'm not sure how stubborn I should be about the copper gain. However now it is like a cantrip baron of sorts.
I have no idea what the power level of the card is now.


Edit: Also, Mendicant seems to have swallowed up the Stronghold discussion. What did you all think of the Scavenger-like Stronghold I posted earlier?
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2018, 03:54:10 pm »
+1

Agora - I'm not sure if cards like Tunnel could be revealed from the discard if not covered up. This does not conclusively prove anything, but when playing online, if you discard a Tunnel and then trash the gained Gold with Watchtower (revealing Tunnel in the discard) you are not allowed to further React with Tunnel. Is this because Tunnel is briefly covered up by the Gold or can Tunnel can only be revealed once per discard? Either way, if you're worrying about infinite Silver gaining, I think here lies your solution. Just make sure Agora gets covered up briefly.



Mendicant - I'm of little worth judging a card analytically, but I think your current test version looks exciting and fun to play with! The ability to "trash" Estates, gain VP tokens, cycle, and provide economy makes it a very powerful $4 to open with, but it's power mid to late game is probably board dependent, which I think is great. It's a very easy card to understand, but seems to offer a lot of diverse gameplay options. In regards to Copper gaining, this might be broken if it was optional. Very cool looking card!

Stronghold - I didn't even bother reading the previous Stronghold due to how wordy it was. Sorry! But it should say something positive that I read your newest version and found it very easy to understand. I think most Dominion player's are fans of reliability and not having their precious decks mangled by Knights and this helps with both of those.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 04:03:24 pm by Kudasai »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2018, 05:48:46 pm »
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I'm not sure whether Tunnel would allow you to reveal it multiple times per discard. I just know that Reactions usually can be revealed unbounded times per trigger and that covering up any card for just a second makes a card expecting it to be the top card of the discard pile lose track of it. This was the reason for painful Watchtower/Border Village discussions. In short, you can never put the card gained with Border Village onto your deck and then Border Village on top. Now another question would be whether revealing a card is moving it,which is where lose track applies. Common sense says it is, for how would you show something to people that you can't get a hold of?

Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2018, 09:39:26 pm »
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Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I feel like I'm missing a crucial detail in the Agora Silver gaining discussion. Was there a concern about this gaining unlimited Silvers to hand, or is Agora designed to do just that? This quote makes it seem like the latter.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2018, 11:09:14 pm »
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I like agora.
And as far as gaining too many silvers. It wouldnít be the first card to deplete the silver pile. Trader did it a lot. Trash a silver gain 3 silvers, trash estate gain 2 silvers. And if everyone did that. 18 silvers would be taken from the pile just in estates alone. Many times when we played with trader especially if Iíll gotten gains or some other curse giving card was in the game. Silver would be the 2nd pile gone. With Iíll gotten gains first. So agora is not going to deplete it as fast. And donít forget about conquest I did that once with trader. Trashed a province gained 8 silvers bought conquest gained 2 more silvers and got 10 victory tokens.

So agora shouldnít deplete the pile nearly as fast. Tunnel would deplete the gold pile a lot faster since thereís less in the gold pile.

And the fact that you get to put a silver in your hand, when itís discarded via militia itís okay. Cause you may have to discard it anyway, unless you didnít have a good hand anyway. And minion hits you itís worse than tunnel. Cause tunnel costs 3 agora costs 5 tunnel gives you gold agora gives you silver to your hand. But remember minion makes you discard your entire hand. Your always better off with a tunnel than an agora during a minion attack. And if itís like milita is it really worth discarding an action that gives you +2 actions and +2 treasure anyway. The only way I can see agora being worthwhile to discard is if you have the option to do that with navigator. Which forces you to discard a bunch of cards or put them all back. But if you were playing with cartographer and had another action that let draw a card. Would you really bother discarding it. Not likely. Unless you didnít have another action to play. And needed the extra 2 treasure that a silver would provide.

So agora has its uses 50/50. Not so useful against an attack like milita, almost worthless against minion. Useful for cards like navigator. And useful 50% of the time with cards like cartographer. Although it would be a powerful card especially if you had more than one. When fortune teller attacked. It would be even better than tunnel against that attack card.

I still like it. Especially for its action.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:12:28 pm by ClouduHieh »
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2018, 04:59:13 am »
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Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I feel like I'm missing a crucial detail in the Agora Silver gaining discussion. Was there a concern about this gaining unlimited Silvers to hand, or is Agora designed to do just that? This quote makes it seem like the latter.

It was designed to gain a single Silver. But the card never gets covered up, thus never loses track of itself, thus may in its current form be revealable again and again from the discard pile, where it expects itself to be. The wording would technically have to be changed.

I mostly wrote the caveat of not being sure because no official card does this, so my reasoning is an amalgation and extrapolation from existing cards.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2018, 03:10:29 pm »
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Token is weird.

You canít play treasures during your action phase.

So why draw a card and then discard a card during buy phase, unless your hoping to get a better treasure card to discard a victory or something.

Also it needs to be a Treasure-Reaction. Because your reacting when it gets discarded. To get that +1 treasure.
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2018, 03:41:05 pm »
+1

Unlike Tunnel, Agora doesn't get covered up when you reveal it and gain a card, so I'm not sure whether you can technically reveal it unlimited times.

I feel like I'm missing a crucial detail in the Agora Silver gaining discussion. Was there a concern about this gaining unlimited Silvers to hand, or is Agora designed to do just that? This quote makes it seem like the latter.

It was designed to gain a single Silver. But the card never gets covered up, thus never loses track of itself, thus may in its current form be revealable again and again from the discard pile, where it expects itself to be. The wording would technically have to be changed.

I mostly wrote the caveat of not being sure because no official card does this, so my reasoning is an amalgation and extrapolation from existing cards.

Thanks for the clarification! I didn't expect it would be designed to draw the entire Silver deck, but for some reason felt compelled to check. My fix should solve any possible issues then. Breaking "Gain a Silver to your hand" into "Gain a Silver. If you did, put it into your hand." makes sure it has a brief stop in the discard to cover up Agora.

A card that could draw the entire Silver pile would be interesting though! ;P
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2018, 03:49:49 pm »
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Token is weird.

You canít play treasures during your action phase.

So why draw a card and then discard a card during buy phase, unless your hoping to get a better treasure card to discard a victory or something.

Also it needs to be a Treasure-Reaction. Because your reacting when it gets discarded. To get that +1 treasure.

I think you about summed it up. Seems kind of like a betting game. If you play Token and draw another Token, do you play it safe and discard it for +$1 Coin or risk it and play it. Seems decent on paper. Cheaper and thus a lot more spammable than Venture, but your deck needs to be much cleaner.

I also agree that this should be a Treasure-Reaction card.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2018, 02:45:58 am »
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And I think you would be creating the first yellow-Blue card. Cause I donít think thereís a treasure-reaction out there. Unless itís in a fan based expansion I havenít seen yet.
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mameluke

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2018, 02:47:52 am »
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Fool's Gold?
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2018, 02:54:06 am »
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Fool's Gold?

Yes, Fool's Gold is the only Treasure-Reaction and boy should there be more! Strictly speaking from a cool-banner point of view.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2018, 09:31:54 pm »
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Oh yeah I almost forgot about fools gold. They surely fooled me.
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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2018, 06:16:45 am »
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Mission House is strictly better than Lost City.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2018, 02:52:00 pm »
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Mission House is strictly better than Lost City.

No, it isn't. Mission House only gives +2 Actions if you have at least 5 VP tokens. Otherwise, it's +2 Cards and +1 VP at best.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2018, 03:18:47 pm »
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Wow, this thread has exploded during my sick time away!

Couple of thoughts: First off as I near completion I am blown away by all of the support. At some point I have to "launch into space" and print physicals and say the set is done. Catching issues before that point is great. The worst thing (which is going to be inevitable) will be having a card that I can't play with because of something I missed. I'd like that to happen with as few cards as possible. Even if the set contains Boulder Traps ;)

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

Token is supposed to be a Treasure-Reaction. Somehow I didn't render it as such. Oh well, stay tuned to the album because I just received the updated art from Jan Boruta; I'll render it as a Treasure-Reaction this time.

Finally, Holunder9, I'm going to get all pointlessly semantic on you and say "Mission House" is not strictly better than Lost City because the meaning of the phrase strictly better than is that if you draw a Venn diagram of every balance benefit that Lost City offers and every benefit Mission House offers, Mission House totally eclipses Lost City. This simply isn't true. Lost City costs $5 and starts its lifetime as +2 Cards +2 Actions. Mission House costs $5 and starts out its life as some weird love child of Moat and Monument. So the diagrams overlap a lot but Lost City has things going for it that Mission House doesn't. Now, of course in a game with good VP generation -- say, one with positive Landmarks, or with Dig, Mission House does become strictly better than Lost City in a real hurry.

Besides that totally pointless semantics thing, again I really appreciate the feedback. Right now, I am pretty okay with the relative balance of MH vs LC. The question is whether LC is OP, I've seen some threads implying this. It's not a good idea to balance against an OP card if you can help it.

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Holunder9

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2018, 03:28:43 pm »
0

Mission House is strictly better than Lost City.

No, it isn't. Mission House only gives +2 Actions if you have at least 5 VP tokens. Otherwise, it's +2 Cards and +1 VP at best.
True that, I misread the otherwise. Still looks too good though, as engine piece it is initially better than Monument and later it becomes better than Lost City. Perhaps changing the vanilla stuff, making it initially +2 Actions and  +1 VP, would nerf it enough.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2018, 04:39:24 pm »
0

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

No. In your new wording you could arguably gain infinite Silvers even if they went to your discard pile. You want to discard the card, so you reveal it. Now you want to discard the card, so you reveal it. The point is that you need to make sure that by resolving the reaction, it becomes either impossible or pointless to reveal it again.

Kudasai provided a great solution. The card will lose track of itself, and no player will ever have to think about it.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2018, 04:45:36 pm »
0

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

No. In your new wording you could arguably gain infinite Silvers even if they went to your discard pile. You want to discard the card, so you reveal it. Now you want to discard the card, so you reveal it. The point is that you need to make sure that by resolving the reaction, it becomes either impossible or pointless to reveal it again.

Kudasai provided a great solution. The card will lose track of itself, and no player will ever have to think about it.

You're right. The issue is Token, which has the same problem, but is +$1 instead of gain a silver, so it's even worse! Technically based on the "reveal as many times as you want if it isn't covered" logic, Token is "if you discard this, get infinite money". :( Kudasai's solution doesn't work in that case.

I'd like to have the two have similar wordings if I can figure out how to word it.

Edit: how does Caravan Guard and Trader avoid this?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:05:37 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2018, 05:12:23 pm »
0

I changed Agora to read "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may first reveal it from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand."
In my head it means when the reaction is triggered, you reveal the Agora from your hand and then discard it, which means that the next trigger for it, it's totally in the wrong place to gain you a Silver. Is this true?

No. In your new wording you could arguably gain infinite Silvers even if they went to your discard pile. You want to discard the card, so you reveal it. Now you want to discard the card, so you reveal it. The point is that you need to make sure that by resolving the reaction, it becomes either impossible or pointless to reveal it again.

Kudasai provided a great solution. The card will lose track of itself, and no player will ever have to think about it.

You're right. The issue is Token, which has the same problem, but is +$1 instead of gain a silver, so it's even worse! Technically based on the "reveal as many times as you want if it isn't covered" logic, Token is "if you discard this, get infinite money". :( Kudasai's solution doesn't work in that case.

I'd like to have the two have similar wordings if I can figure out how to word it.

Edit: how does Caravan Guard and Trader avoid this?

Caravan Guard is played from your hand, making it leave your hand and disabling you to play it from your hand again. Trader can be revealed infinite times, but as with Moat and Secret Chamber, that does nothing you don't get the first time.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2018, 05:19:14 pm »
0

Is there, like, a place to see the latest texts? There doesn't seem to be a link in the first post or anything like that.

What's all this about an on-discard Reaction having infinite-reveal issues? How is it different from Tunnel?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2018, 05:40:48 pm »
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Hey, LastFootnote, I updated the OP with a link to the imgur album.

Of course, it would help if I did all of the updates that need to be done based on the feedback I've received via reddit.
Edit: I will endeavor to fix this after work. I'll let you know when the latest texts are done.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:53:44 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2018, 05:45:31 pm »
0

Is there, like, a place to see the latest texts? There doesn't seem to be a link in the first post or anything like that.

What's all this about an on-discard Reaction having infinite-reveal issues? How is it different from Tunnel?

Short explanation: Tunnel gets covered up, so it loses track of itself.

Long explanation: One could argue that a reaction on discarding, similar to on-gain effects, happens when the card is in your discard pile, and as Reactions can be revealed any number of times on a trigger, a card could be revealed from your discard pile infinite times if its reaction effect doesn't keep you from doing that. Assuming that to reveal a card you have to move it, this is not possible for Tunnel as long as its Reaction has any effect.

Edit: Now that I think about it... Does the Gold land on top of Tunnel or is Tunnel "un-revealed" and returned to the pile only after that?

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2018, 06:18:44 pm »
0

That new Stronghold seems reasonable to me on first glance. I guess it comes down to how good putting any card in your deck into your hand is. It seems strong in money to me, so I guess it depends on how useful it is alongside Villages. Well my guess is that it's strong at least, if that makes any sense...
I'm not sure whether the reaction works with Remodelling though, I think because it prevents the trash you wouldn't gain a card? Not sure on that, or was that the intention?

Looking through the album there are a few things that stick out:

Inspector could/should say "discard 2 cards from your hand, revealing them." to match with Shepherds wording.

Pharaoh needs to specify where the cards are trashed from.

Riches is still giving $3 more than it should. Seriously, this a powerful Copper trasher, why is it giving +$4? Just compare it to Moneylender, it's basically better in every way?

Shipwreck's twin cost thing is probably confusing with a lot of cards. It could probably just ask you to pay an extra $2 when you buy it or something?

I'd suggest a different name for Token, just because Tokens are already things in Dominion. I guess it'd have to fit the art though.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2018, 06:47:41 pm »
0

I'm not going to get to the new wording renders tonight, so instead I will give read-only access to the major design doc. The tab you care about is called "Cheatsheet."

No, I'm not making Dominion: Invention any time soon. Or ever. I swear. Please, make this stop.

Edit: I'm not rebuilding Adventures, either. Seriously, if you look in other tabs other than Cheatsheet there's a good chance that you will see dark things in the recesses of my mind that scare me. And also some of the lifetimes of these cards that are downright hilarious.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 06:51:15 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Kudasai

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2018, 06:55:36 pm »
+1

It goes against all other, official Reaction cards, but could you simply say the following?

Agora - "When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it once to gain a Silver to your hand."
Token - "When you discard this during your turn, if it's not Clean-up, you may reveal it once for +1 Coin."

I don't see an issue with it, but I'm sure someone else will. :P

Is there, like, a place to see the latest texts? There doesn't seem to be a link in the first post or anything like that.

What's all this about an on-discard Reaction having infinite-reveal issues? How is it different from Tunnel?

Short explanation: Tunnel gets covered up, so it loses track of itself.

Long explanation: One could argue that a reaction on discarding, similar to on-gain effects, happens when the card is in your discard pile, and as Reactions can be revealed any number of times on a trigger, a card could be revealed from your discard pile infinite times if its reaction effect doesn't keep you from doing that. Assuming that to reveal a card you have to move it, this is not possible for Tunnel as long as its Reaction has any effect.

Edit: Now that I think about it... Does the Gold land on top of Tunnel or is Tunnel "un-revealed" and returned to the pile only after that?

This is the order in the online version:
(1) Play a card that discards
(2) Discard Tunnel
(3) React with Tunnel from the discard
(4) Tunnel returns to the discard
(5) Gain a Gold to your discard

In the end, Tunnel and Gold are in your discard with Gold being on top. I can't say for sure, but I believe Tunnel could be revealed infinitely if the Gold went straight into your hand.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 06:59:28 pm by Kudasai »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2018, 07:36:27 pm »
+1

If you had an empty Gold pile then Tunnel wouldn't be covered up. Of course it wouldn't do anything then anyway so revealing infinitely would just be like revealing Moat infinitely to an attack. You could even get fancy and empty Silvers and then react to the Gold gain with Trader, that wouldn't cover up Tunnel either and could matter I guess if there was another card that reacted when you would gain something, which will never happen but still!
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2018, 03:40:12 am »
0

If you had an empty Gold pile then Tunnel wouldn't be covered up. Of course it wouldn't do anything then anyway so revealing infinitely would just be like revealing Moat infinitely to an attack. You could even get fancy and empty Silvers and then react to the Gold gain with Trader, that wouldn't cover up Tunnel either and could matter I guess if there was another card that reacted when you would gain something, which will never happen but still!

I highly doubt there even is reasonable design space for a "would gain" without an "instead". Why would you not just make that on gain? And if the "instead" is there, that's how the infinite reveals end.

Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2018, 03:52:57 am »
0

Huh, wait. In a game with Possession, Tunnel never gets covered up because Possession is on would-gain...

I'm not sure whether that means my reasoning is off or whether this is just a "deal with it" rule (such as Transmute not costing - 1 coin and a Potion after Bridge, even though that's not less than 0 Coins). But yeah,apparently that's fine.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2018, 09:11:47 am »
0

I guess a wording that might work with both Agora and Token is "If you would discard this, you may [reveal it from your hand for +$1][reveal it from your to gain a Silver to your hand] instead. If you do, put this into your discard pile."

Wordy as heck.

Other way around (for Agora) would be "exchange this for a Silver, putting it in your hand. If you do, gain an Agora." but that's just crazy talk.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2018, 01:08:15 pm »
0

I started a discussion on Tunnel's Reaction here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18751.msg760375#msg760375
Might be interesting, although tangential.

Asper, thanks for championing this. I'm going to try contribute what I can, because I think the result of that discussion will be the final word on Agora and Token.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2018, 02:41:19 pm »
0

Okay, so I think the question I have to posit is this:

What about Diplomat?
If I currently have a hand with 10 cards in it (because reasons -- you can call me the Hound Mastaaa!) and someone attacks me, can I actually reveal the same Diplomat like, 5 times?

Also as per Donald's Secret History of Diplomat:
The bottom originally gave a Silver when you gained or trashed a card. You had to discard it, so you couldn't gain the pile instantly (a once-per-turn approach was another option).

This implies that discarding the card breaks the cycle.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2018, 02:55:00 pm »
0

To answer my own question (yeah, I shouldn't soliloquize in the thread, sorry)

I believe based on the language of the Secret History of Diplomat, the following rules are in play:

1) Multiple Reactions can react to a single valid trigger;
2) Reaction cards that enter the hand (either by drawing or by "unrevealing" a card revealed from your hand) during or as a result of Reaction effects to a trigger can also React to that same trigger.

So in the case of Diplomat with 10 cards:
1) Diplomat reveals in response to Attack trigger.
2) Diplomat is resolved, you draw up to 12 cards and then discard down to 9.
3) Diplomat enters your hand.
4) Now you can react with Diplomat or any other copies of Diplomat or any other react-to-attack Reactions you drew as part of step 2.
LOOP)

Eventually you get out of the loop because you have only 4 cards in hand.

However, if this is the case, and my logic is good, Agora is fine and Token is fine.


Unfortunately while doing this research I found DXV saying that Stronghold's reaction is too weak to live on a $3 card and Stronghold is a $5. ARRGH.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2018, 04:09:49 pm »
+1

First, yes, you can totally reveal the same Diplomat any number of times as long as the condition is fulfilled.

Second, the discarding option mentioned in the secret history is clearly a mirror of e.g. Market Square (as somebody else mentioned in the other thread). You can not discard Market Square from your hand when it's not in your hand anymore.

The important thing is that Diplomat is not an infinite loop. Every time you reveal it, you lose a card, up to the point where you don't get anything out of it anymore.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2018, 02:56:45 am »
+1

Anyhow, yes, it seems that Agora and Token are both fine. Apparently the ruling is that only reactions from spaces that are non-public can be revealed multiple times.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2018, 06:59:39 am »
+1

The important thing is that Diplomat is not an infinite loop. Every time you reveal it, you lose a card, up to the point where you don't get anything out of it anymore.

That should mean it is the ultimate Tunnel/Faithful Hound enabler (from a standard hand size) with a search space of 15 cards, if I counted correctly. Of course this comes at the price of effectively missing your next turn.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #105 on: June 29, 2018, 04:54:31 pm »
0

That settles it, Agora and Token can stay how they are.

Stronghold bottom..... ergh. I'm very tempted to make it play itself as a reaction to attacks, probably *after* the attack is resolved.

Edit: can scam the language off of Royal Carriage/Coin of the Realm like: "Directly after another player finishes playing an Attack card, you may play this from your hand."
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 06:54:52 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2018, 03:02:33 pm »
0

So the other thing I'm working on now is a version of Pyramids that no longer curses you but instead makes Victory cards worth -1 VP to a min of 0VP. I'm having challenges testing this for balance, though. It should be very powerful but not enough to take over the game completely, and it should make you lose if you can't trash it and invest into it too heavily.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2018, 10:09:33 pm »
+1

That sounds cool.

What if pyramids was a victory card worth a lot of points, but having it decreased the score on the provinces.

Like this.

Pyramid


          8V
óóóóóóóóó
For each pyramid you have at the
End of the game province is worth
-1V less, but not less than 0V.
When You gain this each other
player takes 3 debt tokens.
Cost 9 Victory-Defeat


When those pyramids were built the Egyptians received all the glory. However the slaves received nothing but, lots of sweat. So shouldnít pyramid be a card that creates more work for the other players. And pyramids take a lot of space up. Plus I noticed you didnít have any victory cards.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 10:44:28 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2018, 10:36:02 pm »
+1

Now for shipwreck why didnít you just do it similar to guilds. You may overpay for this, if you overpaid by 2 gain a gold, and a copper. Then you could just do cost 2+ (with the + on the top right of course)
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2018, 10:39:30 pm »
+1

I like stoneworks


Trash provinces and duchies and gain victory tokens the same amount that those cards are worth.

Iím sure I mentioned this but I love snake charmer, a choice attack. Especially if they donít have anything worthwhile to trash. And if you play it twice in a turn you get a big benefit.

The new stronghold is cool too. It gives more reasons for players to buy attack cards.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 10:43:03 pm by ClouduHieh »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2018, 10:51:22 pm »
+1

I like mission house

Gain up to 6 victory tokens and then after that you can still play it as if it was a lost city.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2018, 04:31:40 am »
+1

Pyramid


          8V
óóóóóóóóó
For each pyramid you have at the
End of the game province is worth
-1V less, but not less than 0V.
When You gain this each other
player takes 3 debt tokens.
Cost 9 Victory-Defeat

This has A LOT of issues. First, the VP clause alters the value of another VP card, which Dominion cards never do (see Duke). A less wordy version would be:

Quote
Worth 8VP minus the number of Provinces in your deck, down to 0VP.

Second, what is that type for? It doesn't do anything, does it?

Third, the card is much, much better than Province, like Colony is, but emptying the pile does not end the game, unlike Colony. Even worse, it actually discourages ending the game, because Provinces now are worth barely any points. So, what do you do? You load up on Duchies and try to end the game on piles. Your opponent who got less Pyramids than you now is behind and also needs to load up on Duchies because they can't compete just with Provinces. Just that, damn, they got all that debt. The result: A player who leads on Pyramids more or less gets an insurmountable point difference (as you can't go for both Pyramids an Provinces effectively), but the game still drags on while people stuff their decks with even more dead cards. Yay.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2018, 10:42:16 am »
0

The Pyramid right now is being difficult to balance, lol.

It's
Quote
Pyramid - Action - $5
+$5
+1 Buy
You may trash 2 cards from your hand.
-
At the end of the game, Victory cards are worth -1VP, but not less than 0VP.
Seems like a lot of power all in a $5 card. But in practice, it seems to not be powerful enough, although the test cases I've tried haven't all been good test cases.
I tried buffing it up to give $6 instead of $5. At that point it became hugely OP, I got 7 of the 8 provinces in a 2-player game where the other player was not allowed to buy Pyramids. Even with the drawback (I bought 4 Pyramids over the course of the game, but managed to trash down to 1 remaining, which is sort of the point) I had so many more points that I won. Even if I failed to trash any of the Pyramids I would have 14 VP vs 11VP (they still had Estates) so it was OP OP.

Back down to +$5 I am struggling to edge the VP pile. More tests are needed but I may need to price it at $4. Trying to keep it out of Death Cart's design space. Ofc it started out as a clone of Death Cart that gave you Curses instead of Ruins, so there's that problem.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2018, 01:12:16 pm »
0

Update on Stronghold:

After thinking around "how do I make this card seem war-like enough to justify the art" I have hit on this disgusting essence of pure cancer:

Quote
Stronghold - Action - $5 or $7
Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile, trash a card from it, and put a card from it into your hand.
-
When you buy this for $7, +1 Buy, return to your Action phase, and replay each Attack card you have in play.

It's evil.

On that note, I've been adding the Variable Cost rule to a few cards; I will have to explain it in the rules.

The short version is something like this:
1) a card with multiple costs costs all of those costs for the purposes of targeting by other cards. i.e., a card costing $2 and $4 costs less than $3 and also costs more than $3. So Dame Natalie could gain a Shipwreck and also can trash Shipwreck.
2) If a card allows you to gain a card based on the cost of the variable cost card, you pick one card that satisfies the rule. So using Upgrade on Shipwreck allows you to gain either a card costing exactly $3 or one costing exactly $5. The player who makes the choice gets to decide what you're getting, so another player with Swindler can swindle Shipwreck into either a $2 or $4 cost card.
3) When you buy a card with variable costs, you get to choose which cost you're paying. Both cards with printed variable costs will have a "if you buy for $(more expensive cost)" rule.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2018, 09:31:29 pm »
+1

There are lots of victory cards in this game besides colony that are better than province. And I tend to like a longer game anyway. I dont play to Win. I play to have fun. Playing the cards is fun and I get carried away, in fact when the game ends abruptly that irks me. I donít mind losing just as long as I enjoyed the cards I played with. So a long game is what I look forward to. And if I happen to win great. Anyways there are lots of victory cards that work with my style and tend to be better than province. Like fairgrounds, vineyard, and gardens. With tournament in the game I tend to get 8Vs from fairgrounds. And Iíve been known to get 10Vs from vineyard. So it doesnít bug me if there was a victory that reduced province to dust.

Yeah Iím sure that version of pyramid would give one player a huge advantage. And maybe it needs to be tweaked too. That was just a rough draft out of the blue idea anyway.

Oh and defeat is my replacement for saying curse. I have come up with my own card ideas and have 3 different defeat cards. Defeat is opposite of victory. Curse is not opposite of victory.

And since thereís not really Cards you can buy other than curse out there, I figured Iíd come up with my own. Now if you think no one would purposely buy a card with a minus score. There are definitely some who would if there was a huge benefit. Check out my alchemy ideas. On my alchemy idea forum thing. There you find the mad scientist. Is it worth buying judge for yourself. After all you could probably always trash it later anyway.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2018, 09:37:49 pm »
+1

Oh nerai,

I had a thought for stronghold. You said you wanted to make it more attack themed. And your recent idea may be evil. But itís not the most evil.

You could always make it similar to possession!

Now that would be evil. Evil lol!
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2018, 09:50:47 pm »
+1

Like for instance if you bought stronghold for 7$ then you could take control of the player to your lefts turn. Where you canít play actions and must go to the buy phase (unlike the real possession where you can play their actions.) Buy a card for them you may gain a copy of it. So for instance they had a weak treasure hand. You could buy a curse for them and not gain it. Or if they had for instance 3 golds in their hand. You could buy them a province, and gain a province. And of course if you were lucky enough to have a treasure in their hand with an extra buy, like charm. You give em 2 curses. Now that would be evil. Maybe even worse than possession. Or get a good card and still give em a curse.

Like I said out of the blue idea.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2018, 02:25:51 am »
+1

ClouduHieh, you might want to read the fan card creation guide and also Donald X' secret history of Dominion.

Neither Wineyard, nor Fairgrounds, nor Gardens, nor any other Victory card or even Landmark make Province worth less than it is by default. The major fact is, they don't keep the game from ending. And yeah, you can like any type of game you want, even games that require players to do pointless stuff for several rounds just to end it even though the winner is already clear. Your individual preference doesn't make this an enjoyable experience for the general public, though.

Anyhow, this is Nerai's thread, so I'd prefer discussing his cards here first and foremost.

ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2018, 03:09:33 am »
+1

The only reason why I thought that Iíd have a victory that made province worthless was nerai had an idea to make other victories worthless ( unless I think thatís what he meant) so I just picked on province in particular is all.

Like I said an out of the blue idea. Besides isnít there a huge thread for really bad card ideas anyway. Which means people I have come up with bad card ideas on a multitude of threads.

No harm in adding a few. To the already hundreds.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2018, 04:37:04 am »
+1

The only reason why I thought that Iíd have a victory that made province worthless was nerai had an idea to make other victories worthless ( unless I think thatís what he meant) so I just picked on province in particular is all.

Like I said an out of the blue idea. Besides isnít there a huge thread for really bad card ideas anyway. Which means people I have come up with bad card ideas on a multitude of threads.

No harm in adding a few. To the already hundreds.

Point taken. However, I don't see how Nerai implied that Pyramid would be a Victory card. I think what he had in mind was something like this:

Quote
Pyramid, Action, 5$
+5$
+1 Buy
---
At the end of the game, (however implemented), your VP cards are worth 1 VP less, down to 0 VP.

Regardless of how it's implemented, that version does NOT make Province skippable - Province is still the best Victory card to get and Pyramid is just a stepping stone there that you'd rather get rid of before the game ends. Which Pyramid itself helps you do, too.

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2018, 11:47:04 am »
0

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).
You know, Asper, my name has the letter i twice, NeIraI. :)

Jokes aside, this would have actually fixed the original Pyramid design, if it gave everyone else +2VP whenever you used it instead of gaining you two Curse cards. If I can't land this version I may go back to that. Balance would be different because it wouldn't junk you anymore but it also wouldn't have an upper cap on how bad things can get.
The same could be true of the other Curse gainer in the set, Grave Watcher, but that one I think is okay.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 11:48:13 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2018, 12:51:36 pm »
+1

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).
You know, Asper, my name has the letter i twice, NeIraI. :)

Oopsy... Sorry about that.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2018, 03:34:24 pm »
0

So Nerai's Pyramid leads to the game ending condition, yours leads away from it. That's not to say the original concept doesn't have issues, like wording and the question of whether you need new types (personally I prefer negative VP being just "When you gain this, each other player gets +X VP", like on my card Minister).
You know, Asper, my name has the letter i twice, NeIraI. :)

Oopsy... Sorry about that.
Lol no worries. This happens allll the time. Or people call me Neira.

I am happy to hear of the possibly +VP solution for Pyramids, will see if I can land the current idea, though.
Edit: the good news is I can test both versions at the same time, by having users get the +2VP and set them aside in a special place, then at the end of the game evaluate the overall effect on score of the VPs vs the -VP penalty. For sake of completeness I can also try +1VP and "at the end of the game, VP cards are worth -1VP but not less than 1VP" which may be a direction I go even though it actually then rewards buying VP cards that are otherwise useless. But not much.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:43:18 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2018, 01:34:57 pm »
0

By the way, complaining about that Tunnel thing, I totally forgot to remark on Agora itself. It's basically a Festival that traded its buy for a Reaction which allows you to discard it for benefit while losing no more than 1 Action (compared to playing Agora over that Silver). It also allows you to gain Silver to discard attacks or other interactions that discard cards, but this immediately poses the question why you would want larger amounts of Silvers in an engine deck - or a Village in a deck full of Silvers.

My gut feeling is that this is in general weaker than Festival. Festival's unique effect helps building an engine. Agora's unique effect jinders an engine. I don't really see it being good outside of discard-for-benefit strategies.

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2018, 10:41:03 pm »
0

Yeah, Asper, I agree that it's probably weaker than Festival. The $5 cost might be a mistake vs. $4. It's a throwback to the silver being a "good idea" and existing as a defense vs attacks.

I *could* try throw in a bonus for silvers, like if it gave you +$2, and +$1 to the first Silver you play, like Merchant.

Also, I decided to rework Profiteer, since I found the Reaction part clunky. I tried Choose One, and that was even worse. So right now I'm trying this out:

Quote
Profiteer - Action $4
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Trash a non-Victory card from the Supply. Cards with the same name as that one cost $1 less this turn (but not less than $0.)
-
When this is in play, cards in your hand and deck cost $0 or $1 more.

Two things to point out: one, "Cards in your hand and deck" means specifically if you play a trash-for-benefit card, or say a Patrician, the cards in your deck count as more expensive. Screws up Sages, though.

However, this also makes use of my variable cost mechanic to make the cards in your deck and hand have multiple costs, so you can break the game with upgrades.

Time's running short for testing, though, so please give me feedback, especially feedback of the "this will break the game because _____" kind.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2018, 11:08:17 pm »
0

Okay, now Agora's probably OP, but I'm going to try:

Quote
Agora - Action $5
+2 Actions
+$2
The first time you play a Silver this turn, +1 Card
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it to gain a Silver into your hand.

So now it's Grand Market strong, but only if you play a Silver. If you don't, it's probably somewhere around $3.5. If you discard it, it's still the bad option, but maybe you'll be excited about it a little.

This is still pending tests.

Edit: Wow I must have been tired when I said that... nobody wants cards in their buy phase, Token (now Gamepiece) not withstanding.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 11:56:54 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #126 on: July 08, 2018, 07:35:26 pm »
+1

Hmm not really like grand market. After all you are drawing a card during your buy phase. Unless itís a treasure itís useless also, It could be hurting your next turn. What if itís an action then you an action card that you could of played on your next turn.

If you really want it to be useful, why donít you make it like villa.

When you buy a villa it lets you go back to your action phase with an action. And with villa going into your hand. You then can play it.

Why donít you have agora do this. When you play a silver during your buy phase go back to your action phase and +1 Card. Then this way you go back to your action phase youíll have an extra action and another card in your hand. Which may be an action which youíll now be able to play, and then if it was treasure you can go back to your buy phase with a treasure to add.

How about that?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 07:38:42 pm by ClouduHieh »
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2018, 09:01:53 pm »
+1

You could just make Agora give +1 Card if you reveal a Silver from your hand. Obviously it's a bit different because you can't draw the Silver later and still get +1 card but I think it does the job well enough? It's also nice because the reaction puts the Silver into hand, so it has an aesthetic thing going for it too.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #128 on: July 09, 2018, 01:46:59 pm »
0

I'm actually toying with making the Silver rule "Discard a Silver from your hand for +2 Cards." It makes it like a Lost City, which I don't want too many of, but the net power level is less. It makes you have to gamble, do you want a silver bird in the hand, or two in the bush?
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #129 on: July 09, 2018, 03:30:16 pm »
+1

I'm actually toying with making the Silver rule "Discard a Silver from your hand for +2 Cards." It makes it like a Lost City, which I don't want too many of, but the net power level is less. It makes you have to gamble, do you want a silver bird in the hand, or two in the bush?
It still isn't increasing hand size, so I wouldn't say it's a Lost City. Also means you can't just get +1 Card from all the Agora's once you draw a Silver so should be more interesting?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #130 on: July 10, 2018, 04:08:38 pm »
0

I've tested this, the +2 Cards if you discard a Silver. It seems decent but because you don't normally get cards from Agora it's hard to pull off without a lot of Silver.

Overall I like it.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #131 on: July 12, 2018, 02:42:03 pm »
0

So, basically cards are finished now, since I'm in talks with a printer to create a few physicals. What's done is done!

You can see the current versions on the gallery now.
Speak up in the next 24 hours or so if you spot any game-breaking bugs! The most recent changes are Stronghold and Profiteer.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #132 on: July 12, 2018, 04:23:18 pm »
+1

Fan cards are never finished!

For better or worse, they will never feel the sweet, sweet release of death.

Thanar

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #133 on: July 12, 2018, 04:34:23 pm »
0

Speak up in the next 24 hours or so if you spot any game-breaking bugs!

Great cards! I didn't find anything I'd consider game-breaking, but I did go overthem with a "fine-toothed comb" and found the following typos, wording improvement suggestions:

Discovery - "When you flip this face-up" There is no mention of ever putting the card face down. Is that somewhere in additional rules? I'm not sure whether it should be put in the card text itself.

Gamepiece Ė Possible wording improvement: "When you discard this on your turn, and not during Clean-up"

Inspector Ė For accountability the other players need to reveal the card from their hand before putting it on their deck. (See Bureaucrat: "Each other player reveals a Victory card from their hand and puts it onto their deck (or reveals a hand with no Victory cards).") The word reveal also makes it more clear that the card is coming from their hand. Also, instead of using "copy of that card", I'd suggest using "matches". (See Doctor: "Name a card. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash the matches.")

Suggested text: "Reveal 2 cards from your hand, then discard them. Each other player with 4 or more cards in hand reveals one that matches one of your revealed cards and puts it onto their deck (or reveals they can't)."

Moundbuilder Village - Since all cards in play can be discarded at once, I think this means you can set aside a card that was just played this turn and during Clean-up was discarded at the same time as Moundbuilder Village. This may be a point to make in any additional printed rules/explanation for the card.

Profiteer - The phrase "cards in your hand and deck cost 0 or 1 more" might be more clear if you add the word  "all" before "cards".

Riches - The period should be placed outside the final parenthesis "(including other Riches)."

Shipwreck - Incorrect word order in last sentence. Should be "When you buy this for 4Ö"

Stronghold - The text is missing a word. It should say: "return to your Action phase first."

Tomb Raider - The period should be placed outside the final parenthesis "(or reveals they can't)."
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #134 on: July 12, 2018, 05:34:44 pm »
0

Wow, Thanar, good eye. I must have been panicking or something when I did that last render of Shipwreck and Stronghold.

Discovery's additional rules are part of the "Shuffle Into" rules.

Gamepiece I'll take into consideration. It's true that Clean-up isn't a single instant in time.

Inspector - good eye. I missed this when I converted it from discard to put on top.

Moundbuilder - I just double-checked, it's there.

Profiteer - possibly, I'll think about it, look at it, see what feels best.

Riches and Tomb Raider -- NO! I'm an MLA snob! Okay, I'll sleep on it.
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Gazbag

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #135 on: July 12, 2018, 06:25:01 pm »
0

Riches and Tomb Raider -- NO! I'm an MLA snob! Okay, I'll sleep on it.

To be consistent with existing cards the period should be outside, see Bureaucrat or Gardens for reference. Inspector, Moundbuilder Village, Profiteer and maybe more I missed should be changed too.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2018, 10:07:00 am »
0

Riches and Tomb Raider -- NO! I'm an MLA snob! Okay, I'll sleep on it.

To be consistent with existing cards the period should be outside, see Bureaucrat or Gardens for reference. Inspector, Moundbuilder Village, Profiteer and maybe more I missed should be changed too.

Fun fact, to be consistent with official cards, the period should be outside if the sentence is not the last sentence on the card, but inside if it is -- see Events cards, or Not In Supply cards.

I thought this was something that changed over time (older cards, outside; new ones, inside) but sets like Dark Ages have both insides and outsides.

In that case, Moundbuilder Village and Tomb Raider changes but the other cards stay the same.
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #137 on: July 16, 2018, 12:02:19 am »
0

It is my (likely naive) belief that I will no longer be changing these cards.
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Asper

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2018, 03:33:18 am »
0

You are free to not change them anymore, but that doesn't mean they are finished 😛

Gamepiece for instance is really weird and I have a hard time imagining a deck you want it in. For Artifact, what's the difference between paying and not paying 0? Graveyard still leads to infinite points with Watchtower, Tomb and Inheritance (suggestion: "a card costing more than it" - anyhow, this is the most nit-picky one). If the number of Curses is too low, Pharaoh will give the second-to-last player two Curses, and none to the last. Prospector and Profiteer are very similar in both art and name. If I play several Profiteers, how do they stack? And so on...

The main question however is: How thoroughly did you test these?

Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2018, 10:08:36 am »
0

You are free to not change them anymore, but that doesn't mean they are finished 😛

Gamepiece for instance is really weird and I have a hard time imagining a deck you want it in. For Artifact, what's the difference between paying and not paying 0? Graveyard still leads to infinite points with Watchtower, Tomb and Inheritance (suggestion: "a card costing more than it" - anyhow, this is the most nit-picky one). If the number of Curses is too low, Pharaoh will give the second-to-last player two Curses, and none to the last. Prospector and Profiteer are very similar in both art and name. If I play several Profiteers, how do they stack? And so on...

The main question however is: How thoroughly did you test these?

Gamepiece, I've played with and have had some success with it, but then again I'm at my (relatively low) play level.
Paying zero with Artifact nets you a Copper, which you can put into play. Not paying doesn't.
Graveyard can no longer gain Graveyards.
You're right about Pharaoh. I'm okay with that.
I'm not too worried about the art and name similarity.
The way that Profiteers stack is detailed in the rulebook. It's why I detailed that the cards cost both $0 more and $1 more; two profiteers cause the cards to cost $0 more and $1 more and $2 more, etc.

I'm aware that I could spend the rest of my life refining the cards, trust me! But at some point I need to commit to the project being finished. This was supposed to be a 1-year project. It's already in the third quarter of its second year!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 07:09:43 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2018, 10:11:52 am »
0

Sorry, to respond to the actual question:

I've played probably a thousand games with my testgroup over the last 19 months. I'd like more testing on Profiteer, since the idea works in my head but it's a fairly recent idea, and I've only had a half-dozen games with it since adding the passive clause. It seems good, but I'm not in the loop with extremely high-calibre players.

BTW, when I said I was probably not changing the cards anymore, I meant "before printing them" and not as a response to your earlier statement, Asper :) It totally looks like it, though.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 10:14:52 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2018, 11:46:34 am »
0

Gamepiece for instance is really weird and I have a hard time imagining a deck you want it in.

Of course, no sooner do I say that I'm not going to change it, then I find myself toying with this improvement:

Quote
Gamepiece - Treasure Reaction - $3
Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's a Treasure, draw it and discard a card.
Otherwise, discard it or put it back.
$1
-
When you discard this on your turn other than during Clean-up, reveal it for $1.

I think this lives up to the goal "A lesser version of Venture that goes will with Tactician and works as a sifter in the Buy phase" a bit better.
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LastFootnote

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2018, 12:10:45 pm »
+1

Is it too late for suggestions?
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Neirai the Forgiven

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2018, 12:31:28 pm »
0

Is it too late for suggestions?

No, it's not too late for suggestions. I will take them all into consideration for sure, since I haven't ordered the physical copies yet.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 03:38:54 pm by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2018, 12:41:00 pm »
+1

You are free to not change them anymore, but that doesn't mean they are finished 😛

Gamepiece for instance is really weird and I have a hard time imagining a deck you want it in. For Artifact, what's the difference between paying and not paying 0? Graveyard still leads to infinite points with Watchtower, Tomb and Inheritance (suggestion: "a card costing more than it" - anyhow, this is the most nit-picky one). If the number of Curses is too low, Pharaoh will give the second-to-last player two Curses, and none to the last. Prospector and Profiteer are very similar in both art and name. If I play several Profiteers, how do they stack? And so on...

The main question however is: How thoroughly did you test these?

Gamepiece, I've played with and have had some success with it, but then again I'm at my (relatively low) play level.
Paying zero with Artifact nets you a Copper, which you can put into play. Not paying doesn't.
Graveyard can no longer gain Graveyards.
You're right about Pharaoh. I'm okay with that.
I'm not too worried about the art and name similarity.
The way that Profiteers stack is detailed in the rulebook. It's why I detailed that the cards cost both $0 more and $1 more; two profiteers cause the cards to cost $0 more and $1 more and $2 more, etc.

I'm aware that I could spend the rest of my life refining the cards, trust me! But at some point I need to commit to the project being finished. This was supposed to be a 1-year project. It's already in the third quarter of its second year!

One might argue that there is no difference between paying and not paying 0$, given that you can't overpay 0$ for Ruins, either. I already gave my suggestion of "pay any amount of $. You may gain..." to fix this.
Graveyard can gain Estates and Estates can gain Graveyards. With Tomb, Watchtower and Inheritance, you can trash one, then trash the other to get infinite points.

Anyhow, I wasn't aware of how long you have been working on this. That said, I definitely see that these are not just some throw-away ideas, but that you put quite a bit of thought into it. I guess it's mostly the way you present this, with your official unofficial twitter and all, that makes it seem like you were a tiny bit too optimistic about the state of your cards.

Your Gamepiece change for example is a huge improvement in my book, although I'd probably make it peek at the card and then just giving you the choice to put it in your hand (not draw it) at the cost of discarding a card, regardless of type. But that's really minimal (except the "put in hand" thing, that's standard rules).

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2018, 12:57:06 pm »
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You are free to not change them anymore, but that doesn't mean they are finished 😛

Gamepiece for instance is really weird and I have a hard time imagining a deck you want it in. For Artifact, what's the difference between paying and not paying 0? Graveyard still leads to infinite points with Watchtower, Tomb and Inheritance (suggestion: "a card costing more than it" - anyhow, this is the most nit-picky one). If the number of Curses is too low, Pharaoh will give the second-to-last player two Curses, and none to the last. Prospector and Profiteer are very similar in both art and name. If I play several Profiteers, how do they stack? And so on...

The main question however is: How thoroughly did you test these?

Gamepiece, I've played with and have had some success with it, but then again I'm at my (relatively low) play level.
Paying zero with Artifact nets you a Copper, which you can put into play. Not paying doesn't.
Graveyard can no longer gain Graveyards.
You're right about Pharaoh. I'm okay with that.
I'm not too worried about the art and name similarity.
The way that Profiteers stack is detailed in the rulebook. It's why I detailed that the cards cost both $0 more and $1 more; two profiteers cause the cards to cost $0 more and $1 more and $2 more, etc.

I'm aware that I could spend the rest of my life refining the cards, trust me! But at some point I need to commit to the project being finished. This was supposed to be a 1-year project. It's already in the third quarter of its second year!

One might argue that there is no difference between paying and not paying 0$, given that you can't overpay 0$ for Ruins, either. I already gave my suggestion of "pay any amount of $. You may gain..." to fix this.
Graveyard can gain Estates and Estates can gain Graveyards. With Tomb, Watchtower and Inheritance, you can trash one, then trash the other to get infinite points.

Anyhow, I wasn't aware of how long you have been working on this. That said, I definitely see that these are not just some throw-away ideas, but that you put quite a bit of thought into it. I guess it's mostly the way you present this, with your official unofficial twitter and all, that makes it seem like you were a tiny bit too optimistic about the state of your cards.

Your Gamepiece change for example is a huge improvement in my book, although I'd probably make it peek at the card and then just giving you the choice to put it in your hand (not draw it) at the cost of discarding a card, regardless of type. But that's really minimal (except the "put in hand" thing, that's standard rules).

You're right about Graveyard, I will change it to prevent shenanigans.
You're likely also right about Gamepiece, look at is mostly worthwhile for the simplicity, and people can self-regulate. If they want to discard coppers, then they only get $1 from Gamepiece. That's likely okay.

I left the (including $0) on Artifact because my playtesters kept not understanding that they could gain Coppers with it without paying money, or that they could *not* gain Coppers with it. I'd rather it not say that, since it's more awkward than just "any amount of..."
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2018, 05:59:52 am »
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I left the (including $0) on Artifact because my playtesters kept not understanding that they could gain Coppers with it without paying money, or that they could *not* gain Coppers with it. I'd rather it not say that, since it's more awkward than just "any amount of..."

Hum, I understand that that's an issue... In the end I guess it's fine.

Also, your rules sheet kind of makes me want to do one, myself.  :) I'll try to give some feedback on it soon.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #147 on: July 17, 2018, 10:00:08 am »
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Perfect, thank you!

Also I'd love to know how all this time I've had Gamepiece's rules text above its value and not noticed ;)
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #148 on: July 17, 2018, 10:12:10 am »
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Am I right to believe that after playing Profiteer, I can gain the entire Border Village pile at once?

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #149 on: July 17, 2018, 10:20:24 am »
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Am I right to believe that after playing Profiteer, I can gain the entire Border Village pile at once?

I *knew* there was a reason I originally restricted it to cards in your hand and deck. Back it goes!
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2018, 10:42:32 am »
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Am I right to believe that after playing Profiteer, I can gain the entire Border Village pile at once?

I *knew* there was a reason I originally restricted it to cards in your hand and deck. Back it goes!

Hum. If I prefer to do Watchtower's on-gain reaction before Border Village's effect, can I still check the card's cost? Considering this never lead to issues in the past, I guess I can?
However, this is already a three-card combo and not soooooooo immensely oppressive that it breaks the game, so don't worry about that.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2018, 07:55:10 am »
+1

Fun fact, to be consistent with official cards, the period should be outside if the sentence is not the last sentence on the card, but inside if it is -- see Events cards, or Not In Supply cards.

You put a period inside parentheses only if the entire sentence is in parenthesis. (Ferry, Plan, Seaway, Training, Inheritance, Pathfinding and Lost Arts as well as this sentence do this.)
If only a part of the sentence is in parentheses, you put the period after it (as is the case for Save, Pilgrimage, all those "or reveals they can't" cards and this section of the sentence).

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2018, 02:45:40 pm »
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Gamepiece update:

There's a reason I made you discard a card with Gamepiece, it's to keep the power level down vs. Venture's.

So a more accurate ruling would be:
Quote
Gamepiece Treasure - Reaction - $3
$1
Look at the top card of your deck. Put it into your hand, discard it, or put it back. If you put it in your hand, discard a card.
-
When you discard this on your turn other than during Clean-up, reveal it for + $1.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #153 on: Today at 04:34:41 am »
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Gamepiece update:

There's a reason I made you discard a card with Gamepiece, it's to keep the power level down vs. Venture's.

So a more accurate ruling would be:
Quote
Gamepiece Treasure - Reaction - $3
$1
Look at the top card of your deck. Put it into your hand, discard it, or put it back. If you put it in your hand, discard a card.
-
When you discard this on your turn other than during Clean-up, reveal it for + $1.

This can be shortened to:

Quote
Gamepiece Treasure - Reaction - $3
$1
Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it in your hand. If you do, discard a card.
-
When you discard this on your turn other than during Clean-up, reveal it for + $1.

Looked-at cards, like revealed cards, always go back to where they were (see Perl Diver). Putting it in your hand allows you both to keep it for another card or discard the looked-at card itself.

You might consider to just state "during your Action or Buy phase" instead of "your turn other than during cleanup". Technically, the +1$ only does things during your own turn, anyway, and you can't use it after the buy phase anyhow (given how no Night card cares about the coins you have left). But, eh, I guess that's preference.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #154 on: Today at 09:48:18 am »
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Gamepiece update:

There's a reason I made you discard a card with Gamepiece, it's to keep the power level down vs. Venture's.

So a more accurate ruling would be:
Quote
Gamepiece Treasure - Reaction - $3
$1
Look at the top card of your deck. Put it into your hand, discard it, or put it back. If you put it in your hand, discard a card.
-
When you discard this on your turn other than during Clean-up, reveal it for + $1.

This can be shortened to:

Quote
Gamepiece Treasure - Reaction - $3
$1
Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it in your hand. If you do, discard a card.
-
When you discard this on your turn other than during Clean-up, reveal it for + $1.

Looked-at cards, like revealed cards, always go back to where they were (see Perl Diver). Putting it in your hand allows you both to keep it for another card or discard the looked-at card itself.

You might consider to just state "during your Action or Buy phase" instead of "your turn other than during cleanup". Technically, the +1$ only does things during your own turn, anyway, and you can't use it after the buy phase anyhow (given how no Night card cares about the coins you have left). But, eh, I guess that's preference.

The pre-shortened and shortened version don't do the same thing; also there's a long precedent of "Look at" rules explicitly stating that you can put the card back, Using "may" works as an equivalent, but printing it with a choice, people may get confused between whether they must choose clause B if they didn't choose clause A:

Quote
Look at the top card of your deck. You may put it into your hand or discard it. If you put it into your hand, discard a card.
Arguably I could shorten it by saying:
Quote
Look at the top card of your deck. Put it into your hand and discard a card, discard it, or put it back.
but that's also super confusing to read.
Quote
Look at the top card of your deck. Put it into your hand and discard a card, put it back, or discard it.
is an option but as far as I know, official cards always list the options in the "put into hand, discard, put back" order.
Edit: actually, there's a good argument that "put it ..." always comes last, so I could do something like:
Quote
Discard it, put it back, or put it into your hand and discard a card.

On the other hand, I totally agree with you about "Action and Buy phase". It looks better on the card, too, which is something I'm always going for.
« Last Edit: Today at 09:51:43 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #155 on: Today at 10:10:03 am »
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More straightforward (but complex nonetheless) Stronghold:

Quote
Stronghold - $5 or $7 - Action
Put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile, trash a card from it, and put a card from it into your hand.
-
When you buy this for $7, play it as an Attack from the Supply. It's that card until it leaves play. You may choose to be unaffected by it.

Imagine that you have a moat that you used to react to yourself playing an attack. It would block the beneficial part of the attack while still hitting everyone else in the face.

The problem with playing an attack action in the buy phase is, you draw 3 cards. Great. What now. Giving you a Buy and pushing yourself back into the Action phase was a way of saying, you can use those cards so no big deal. But then it felt awkward; what if the attack I play gives me a Buy, then I have two. Maybe I draw a lot of actions, do I get +1 Action, too? Also, you're buying Stronghold late, when you have $7 and maybe are already buying provinces. You probably don't want to gain a Silver with Bureaucrat, either. But you still would love to wreck your opponent's plan by putting a Victory card into his next turn. So I was toying around with ways of making Stronghold's payoff ability do "just the attack part of an attack" but that gets messy, especially with conditional attacks like Replace.

So my solution is to put a big may() clause around the parts of the attack that you have to do. Don't want to draw the cards? you don't have to. Of course, if you want to, go for it.
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #156 on: Today at 10:55:07 am »
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In which case would my wording not do the same thing?

You look at the card.
A) You decide to put it in your hand. You discard another card. Check.
B) You decide to put it in your hand. You discard the card itself. This is the identical outcome to discarding it from the top of your deck. Check.
C) You decide to not put it in your hand. By default, all cards that you look at are returned to where they came from if not explicitly moved. The card goes back on top. Check.

Look-at and reveal wordings state that you may return a card to where it was only if that is absolutely necessary. It's not necessary in any context where the card will go back to where it was anyways, such as with Reactions, Legionary's Gold, or Chariot Race. For cases where it may not stay there, it still is only specified if there isn't a simple binary decision between the card staying or the card going somewhere else. For instance, all of Ironmonger, Pearl Diver, Duchess, Jack-of-All-Trades, Magpie, Patrician and Wishing Well do NOT specify that the card is returned to the deck if it is not moved somewhere else.
It IS specified if the card is an attack (such as Scrying Pool), as the attacker's ability to choose where the card goes is meant to be underlined. It also is specified if the decision is non-binary, such as with Lookout or Doctor, or re-ordering cards like Cartographer.

Gamepiece is neither of those card types.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #157 on: Today at 11:14:43 am »
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Haha, you're absolutely right. I missed the logical leap that you could always discard the card you just put in your hand, therefore the rules are equivalent.
Funny thing is it's not like I want you to have to discard a different card.

You've convinced me, I'll make both changes. And the card is cleaner, which is always a good thing.

Obviously I'll have to specify in the rules that the card you discard can be one that was in your hand before or the one you just put there, but that's standard across all official discard card rules.
« Last Edit: Today at 11:34:02 am by Neirai the Forgiven »
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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #158 on: Today at 02:21:18 pm »
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Sorry for coming around the corner with this just now, but revealing the card for a coin should be optional. As players will want to reveal them anyhow, making it mandatory adds nothing, gameplay-wise. However, when discarding multiple cards at once, you run into the same accountability problem 1st edition's Throne Room's had.

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Re: (Art Reveals within!) Dominion: Antiquities
« Reply #159 on: Today at 03:11:05 pm »
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You are right. I am honestly unsure why anyone would pass up the $1 (except I think there's a possible threat of a Landmark for precision golding) but it would save on rules fights if someone doesn't.
Thanks, Asper!
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