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Author Topic: Sacrifice and Inheritance  (Read 938 times)

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WalrusRunner

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Sacrifice and Inheritance
« on: May 04, 2018, 12:41:07 am »
0

This came up in a game online, on dominion.games. Does playing sacrifice on an estate that has been inherited give both the +2vp of the (estate/victory type) and the +2 cards, +2 actions of the (inherited action/action type), or just the +2vp of the (estate/victory type)? Online it only gave the +2vp, but both my opponent and I didn't think this was right.

Here's what makes me think that an inherited estate that is trashed by sacrifice should receive +2vp and +2 cards, +2 actions:
  • Sacrifice, official FAQ: "If you trash a card with multiple types, you get all relevant bonuses; for example if you trash Crown, you get +2 Cards, +2 Actions, and +$2"
  • Inheritance, official FAQ: "For the rest of the game, all of your Estates have the abilities and types of the set aside card. For example if you set aside a Port, then your Estates are Action - Victory cards, that can be played for +1 Card +2 Actions."
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AJD

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2018, 12:54:54 am »
+5

Okay so the online implementation is right, for this reason:

Sacrifice says "Trash a card from your hand. If it's...", using the present tense. In other words, first you trash the card, and then you ask whether (at the present moment) it's an Action or not.

By the time you're checking whether it's an Action, the card is already in the trash. Since it's left your custody by that point, it's no longer one of "your Estates", and therefore no longer subject to the effects of your Inheritance.
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crj

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 11:33:15 am »
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Hmm. That reasoning makes sense. So...

...what happens if you Sacrifice a Fortress? Does Sacrifice Lose Track of the Fortress and give you nothing?
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Awaclus

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 11:43:01 am »
+4

Hmm. That reasoning makes sense. So...

...what happens if you Sacrifice a Fortress? Does Sacrifice Lose Track of the Fortress and give you nothing?

Lose track only applies when you're trying to move something and it isn't where you think it is. So no, there's nothing special about Sacrifice/Fortress; you trash the Fortress, put it into your hand and get +2 cards +2 actions.
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AJD

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2018, 11:44:53 am »
+9


Note that this also means that if you Inherit Fortress and Sacrifice an Estate, you do get both bonuses.
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Simon Jester

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2018, 12:17:43 pm »
0


Note that this also means that if you Inherit Fortress and Sacrifice an Estate, you do get both bonuses.

Fortress IS cheating..

Chappy7

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2018, 02:10:45 pm »
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Note that this also means that if you Inherit Fortress and Sacrifice an Estate, you do get both bonuses.

Wait, if I Inherit Fortress, once I trash an Estate it is no longer mine and no longer a Fortress, right? Wouldn't this prevent the Estate from returning to my hand, hence preventing me from getting both bonuses by using Sacrifice?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 03:18:08 pm »
+1


Note that this also means that if you Inherit Fortress and Sacrifice an Estate, you do get both bonuses.

Wait, if I Inherit Fortress, once I trash an Estate it is no longer mine and no longer a Fortress, right? Wouldn't this prevent the Estate from returning to my hand, hence preventing me from getting both bonuses by using Sacrifice?

I believe Donald ruled back when Inheritance first came out that trashing an Estate-as-Fortress meant that you did in fact trash a card that says "when you trash this.." so it still happens. Even if it only makes sense intuitively, rather than programatically.
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kieranmillar

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2018, 03:28:24 pm »
+1

Fortresses "when you trash this" activates before Sacrifice moves on to the next sentence of its card text because you have to resolve each part in full before moving on to the next. During this time the estate comes back into your hand and therefore regains its inherited types before Sacrifice checks them.
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markusin

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2018, 04:23:31 pm »
0

Okay so the online implementation is right, for this reason:

Sacrifice says "Trash a card from your hand. If it's...", using the present tense. In other words, first you trash the card, and then you ask whether (at the present moment) it's an Action or not.

By the time you're checking whether it's an Action, the card is already in the trash. Since it's left your custody by that point, it's no longer one of "your Estates", and therefore no longer subject to the effects of your Inheritance.

The same is true for Transmute.
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Chappy7

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2018, 06:09:55 pm »
+4


Note that this also means that if you Inherit Fortress and Sacrifice an Estate, you do get both bonuses.

Wait, if I Inherit Fortress, once I trash an Estate it is no longer mine and no longer a Fortress, right? Wouldn't this prevent the Estate from returning to my hand, hence preventing me from getting both bonuses by using Sacrifice?

I believe Donald ruled back when Inheritance first came out that trashing an Estate-as-Fortress meant that you did in fact trash a card that says "when you trash this.." so it still happens. Even if it only makes sense intuitively, rather than programatically.

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markusin

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 06:57:13 pm »
+3


Note that this also means that if you Inherit Fortress and Sacrifice an Estate, you do get both bonuses.

Wait, if I Inherit Fortress, once I trash an Estate it is no longer mine and no longer a Fortress, right? Wouldn't this prevent the Estate from returning to my hand, hence preventing me from getting both bonuses by using Sacrifice?

I believe Donald ruled back when Inheritance first came out that trashing an Estate-as-Fortress meant that you did in fact trash a card that says "when you trash this.." so it still happens. Even if it only makes sense intuitively, rather than programatically.

I don't know if I'm worthy of my avatar anymore.  I'm having an identity crisis.

You're lucky you didn't pick an Inheritance avatar.
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Dingan

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2018, 07:36:21 pm »
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And just confirming - "When you gain this, ..." effects happen once you've gained the card, right? E.g. if I Inherit Blessed Village, I get the on-gain bonus when I buy an Estate because the effect happens after I have gained the Estate, which is now a Blessed Village.
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kieranmillar

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2018, 08:04:22 pm »
+2

Official FAQ says Inheritance affects Estates when you buy or gain them, so buying an Estate inheriting Port comes with a free Port. So from that I'd conclude that gaining an Estate inheriting Blessed Village gets you the boon.
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Watno

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2018, 08:10:56 pm »
+2

And just confirming - "When you gain this, ..." effects happen once you've gained the card, right? E.g. if I Inherit Blessed Village, I get the on-gain bonus when I buy an Estate because the effect happens after I have gained the Estate, which is now a Blessed Village.

As far as I know, you don't even need to gain a card for it to be yours, it's also yours while you buy it.
For example, you can inherit Noble Brigand, buy an Estate and use Noble Brigands "attack", then exchange the Estate for a Silver with Trader.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2018, 07:08:41 pm »
+1


Note that this also means that if you Inherit Fortress and Sacrifice an Estate, you do get both bonuses.

Wait, if I Inherit Fortress, once I trash an Estate it is no longer mine and no longer a Fortress, right? Wouldn't this prevent the Estate from returning to my hand, hence preventing me from getting both bonuses by using Sacrifice?

I believe Donald ruled back when Inheritance first came out that trashing an Estate-as-Fortress meant that you did in fact trash a card that says "when you trash this.." so it still happens. Even if it only makes sense intuitively, rather than programatically.

The rule goes back to BoM/Fortress. You trash BoM-as-Fortress (with Procession for example) and so trigger the when-trash ability. Even though Fortress reverts back to BoM when it's in the trash, the when-trash ability was triggered so it resolves and the BoM goes back to your hand. This applies to all when-trash and when-discard abilities. So a BoM-as-Herbalist will still work even though it's not a Herbalist anymore when it resolves. And Overlord-as-Treasury.

As you note, this also applied to trashing Inherited Estates with a when-trash ability.

Many more Inheritance and BoM interactions in the document in my sig. :)

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2018, 07:17:48 pm »
+2

So a BoM-as-Herbalist will still work even though it's not a Herbalist anymore when it resolves. And Overlord-as-Treasury.

And BoM-as-Treasury  ;)
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werothegreat

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2018, 11:47:28 am »
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From this wording, you should draw cards and get Actions if you Sacrifice an Inherited Fortress.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2018, 12:00:42 pm »
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From this wording, you should draw cards and get Actions if you Sacrifice an Inherited Fortress.

What wording are you referring to? Sacrifice doesn't have a "when-trash" wording.

EDIT: I didn't re-read the posts carefully enough. Of course Fortress has the "when-trash" wording.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:02:31 pm by Jeebus »
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werothegreat

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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2018, 12:10:31 pm »
+1

From this wording, you should draw cards and get Actions if you Sacrifice an Inherited Fortress.

What wording are you referring to? Sacrifice doesn't have a "when-trash" wording.

Sacrifice checks the card after it is trashed. After you trash an Estate-Fortress, it is still yours, unlike anything else you might trash.
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Re: Sacrifice and Inheritance
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2018, 01:59:52 pm »
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Sacrifice checks the card after it is trashed. After you trash an Estate-Fortress, it is still yours, unlike anything else you might trash.

Right. That's correct. I see now that it's what this thread has mainly been about. It was mentioned in the fourth post, and it's what I was confirming in my last post too.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 02:01:33 pm by Jeebus »
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