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Supernova888

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Sultan
« on: April 29, 2018, 04:59:10 am »
+1

Hi there!
I'm new to creating fan dominion cards, and am in the process of creating an expansion called "Dominion: Nobility" themed around noble titles (obviously) and focused on card interactions. I have a fun but weird idea for a card I'd like some feedback on, in terms of balance and also in determining cost. Please let me know what you think!

Sultan
Action
Discard a card. For the rest of your turn, you may interpret +cards, +coins, +buys, and +actions as a different type each time a card is played, as long as all types on a card are different after interpretation.

[In case you need an example, this would allow you to turn, say, a village (+1 card, +2 actions) into something like (+1 coin, +2 cards).]

My instinct is to make it cost 5, but I don't have any solid reasoning for that.
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majiponi

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2018, 06:01:24 am »
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Sultan, 4$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card to gain a Treasure costing up to 1$ more than it.
Although I know a famous card named Sultan, I'll write some.

Q1. Will Council Room be like...
+4 Cards, +1 Action, each other player gets +1 Buy?

Q2. Will Hunting Grounds be like...
+3 Cards, +1 Action. ...?

Q3. Does discarding really need? Playing another card needs a Village. I don't think this is so strong. There are very few cards which have multiple +Bonuses.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 09:36:30 pm by majiponi »
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Holunder9

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2018, 07:15:06 am »
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I think this works if you allow a conversion of Action, Coins and Buys into each other (stuff you gotta count anyway) and doesn't work if you include cards.
As majiponi has pointed out, the main application is the transformation of terminal into non-terminal draw. Now this doesn't look bonkers given that you gotta play a splitter and a Sultan to get the whole thing running in the first place but I still wouldn't do it.

If you do the version without cards I would give Sultan a vanilla bonus though, otherwise it might be too weak.
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dz

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2018, 08:18:02 am »
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If you do the version without cards I would give Sultan a vanilla bonus though, otherwise it might be too weak.

What's confusing about giving it a vanilla bonus itself though is that you MIGHT be able to change that vanilla bonus into something else. Like if Sultan gave +1 Buy +$1, could you change that to +1 Card +1 Action?
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Holunder9

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2018, 03:36:41 pm »
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If you do the version without cards I would give Sultan a vanilla bonus though, otherwise it might be too weak.

What's confusing about giving it a vanilla bonus itself though is that you MIGHT be able to change that vanilla bonus into something else. Like if Sultan gave +1 Buy +$1, could you change that to +1 Card +1 Action?
I don't think that this is more confusing than the card itself, you just gotta count loud how much Actions, Buys and Coins you have.
I suggested to not allow conversion into cards to prevent that least that all those terminal Silvers become cantrips. Witches can still become Familiars and Smithies Labs though.
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Supernova888

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2018, 05:30:05 pm »
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Q2. Will Hunting Grounds be like...
+3 Cards, +1 Action. ...

Witches can still become Familiars and Smithies Labs though.

So either I'm misinterpreting what you guys are getting at here or I didn't explain the card accurately. In the original idea, you can replace the word after the +X, but not split it up. In other words, a smithy becomes +3 (insert bonus here), not 3 bonuses to be split up in a way like "+2 cards, +1 action."

Q3. Does discarding really need? Playing another card needs a Village. I don't think this is so strong. There are very few cards which have multiple +Bonuses.

If you do the version without cards I would give Sultan a vanilla bonus though, otherwise it might be too weak.

Saying that, though, that makes the case even greater for what you guys said above. Getting rid of the discard a card, making it nonterminal, and giving a vanilla bonus might be in order.

What's confusing about giving it a vanilla bonus itself though is that you MIGHT be able to change that vanilla bonus into something else. Like if Sultan gave +1 Buy +$1, could you change that to +1 Card +1 Action?

If you were to have multiple sultans in a deck, I can actually see a vanilla bonus being a way to stop this from being a dead card in any kingdom.

This ... doesn't work if you include cards.

Given the restriction of only being able to work within the restraints of the bonus distribution on the card in question, I'd actually push to say cards would be more interesting to include.

So, assuming I understood you guys right, what do you think about this clarification? Is it too restrictive, or does it make it less swingy? Let me know!
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Aquila

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2018, 06:51:04 pm »
+1

Welcome to the forum.
As you're new to making fan cards, I'll give you some tips I've found useful myself to making compelling ideas.
  • Firstly, try to think of things that the current Dominion cards don't do, things that initially seem interesting to you. Likely you've done this. I like to aim to be different; if an idea isn't that innovative, it likely won't add much to the game. But there's nothing wrong with being similar.
  • Check that the idea isn't broken in some way, either in functionality or in being overpowered. Think about all the implications that it will have, and check that no official card comes to any problems with it. This can be hard, and most likely that's how this forum will help. At least, it will give you direction for playtesting, the bottom bullet point. In time, you'll get used to principles to follow. There are reasons official cards don't do certain things you'll get familiar with*.
  • Try to express your ideas as if they were written on official cards. The simpler you can explain them, the easier it will be to sort out the rules for them, to continue with the other bullet points here and to get better feedback from this forum. It's best if you use phrases that already exist on official cards.
  • And the important but fun bit, playtesting. Check how the card plays, run it against official cards you think it could be strong with, and also feel how interesting it is to play. You might be able to make it more exciting, or you need to simplify it; I've learned myself that simpler is better. If you have a play group your fan cards will be played with, you may want to do a bit of solo testing first, to make clear any immediate problems so your group doesn't have to suffer through them.

Loosely speaking you can do these points in order, but you'll likely go back and forth to get an idea good. So, let's compare your Sultan:
It's definitely different. Probably the idea excites you.
It changes vanilla bonuses, so the stronger implications of it will be with cards that give lots of vanilla. It makes them very flexible. You'd run through some of these and see what would be strong. Examples that come to mind as well as those already posted are Wine Merchant becoming +4 Cards +1 Action, and (Grand) Market +3 (+4) Cards +1 Action or some on Coins.
Sultan is so different that wording could be tricky. Types, for instance, are the words on the bottom of a card, like 'Attack'. Teacher uses the word 'bonus' for its tokens, so this is the term you'd likely use. The wording at present implies you choose vanilla that other players get outside of turn, as majiponi pointed out with Council Room. This can bring you back to the broken test; I'll add Caravan Guard.
Playtesting, though, I imagine will be very telling about the quality of Sultan. As well as thinking through all the things identified above and the other posts here, I don't think it would be a pleasant play experience. There's just so much extra decision making, and a fair bit of mental pressure as you choose whether +Card or +Coin is best in your current situation, what's still in your deck. There's also the issue of tracking what you chose for each card, as Holunder9 brought out. So, a principle you can draw from this is that it's good for cards to be rigid. If you make cards flexible (like Steward or Count), make sure they don't overwhelm.

And you mention about making a set. It seems strange to make a set about 'card interaction'. Really, the whole game of Dominion is about card interaction. Do you perhaps mean cards that adjust what others do, like how Sultan changes the vanilla of other cards? Hopefully the principles of ease of tracking and play experience can help. It could be said that Village interacts with Smithy to change what it does; it means Smithy can draw Action cards and they be usable. If there is no Village, it can only draw Treasure or Night cards. And Throne Room is entirely dependent on interaction.

*Another great help is the stickied post, the guide to fan card creation by rinkworks.

A lot of stuff here, hope something helps.
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Supernova888

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2018, 10:49:16 pm »
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Thank you for all the valuable information, those tips are great! I've read rinkworks's guide through a few times, and I'm trying to implement it as much as I can as I go along.
I'll try and find ways to keep the spirit of sultan there while making its mechanic a bit simpler - I have a few game groups I could probably get to playtest whatever prototype results to see if it ends up being too complicated.

And you mention about making a set. It seems strange to make a set about 'card interaction'. Really, the whole game of Dominion is about card interaction. Do you perhaps mean cards that adjust what others do, like how Sultan changes the vanilla of other cards?

Yeah, that's poor wording again on my part. To be more specific, I'm trying to make my set focus on cards that directly change the playing of cards that come after them (like Sultan), and cards that, when played, are affected by conditional or variable situations with other cards (for example, I have a card called "Suitor," which, besides its nonconditional bonuses, gives additional coins per every card in your hand depicting a woman).
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Holunder9

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 01:33:14 am »
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Given the restriction of only being able to work within the restraints of the bonus distribution on the card in question, I'd actually push to say cards would be more interesting to include.
On a non-terminal Cards is the best vanilla bonus which is why I wouldn't do it. For example most of the times you'd want to Sultan a Market into a Double Lab.
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Supernova888

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2018, 11:02:40 pm »
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For example most of the times you'd want to Sultan a Market into a Double Lab.

I still don't quite think I've explained the concept accurately enough, or I'm misunderstanding you still. Under the constraints provided, Sultaning a Market would be impossible/ineffectual. Sultaning a Market leaves you with "+1 ___, +1 ___, +1 ___, +1 ___." Because all of the blanks must be different, you have no choice but to give the Market the same vanilla bonuses again. You can only change the words after +X on any card, and by the end every word must be different.
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Holunder9

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Re: Sultan
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2018, 05:49:13 am »
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For example most of the times you'd want to Sultan a Market into a Double Lab.

I still don't quite think I've explained the concept accurately enough, or I'm misunderstanding you still. Under the constraints provided, Sultaning a Market would be impossible/ineffectual. Sultaning a Market leaves you with "+1 ___, +1 ___, +1 ___, +1 ___." Because all of the blanks must be different, you have no choice but to give the Market the same vanilla bonuses again. You can only change the words after +X on any card, and by the end every word must be different.
That's pretty restrictive but of course it could be situationally useful to convert terminal Silvers in Necros or Moats.
As the card stands I would never ever buy it though. I'd try it as cantrip at $5 with the effect only kicking in after the card is played.
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