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Author Topic: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online  (Read 2883 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2018, 04:14:23 pm »
+1

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

Was this in a tournament? Or just casual games at someone's house? Was he serious?

So many questions.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2018, 04:16:25 pm »
0

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

Was this in a tournament? Or just casual games at someone's house? Was he serious?

So many questions.

I was wondering the same! Unless it's a tournament scene (in which case I would think that undos in general would just not be allowed); it's pretty rare to play IRL dominion with people who aren't friends of yours.
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crj

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2018, 05:51:52 pm »
0

I frequently play non-tournament games with relative strangers at FLGS games evenings. The only reason Dominion isn't one of them is that it's a lot of cards to lug about and I get my Dominion fix with friends.
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weesh

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2018, 06:18:55 pm »
+1

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

Was this in a tournament? Or just casual games at someone's house? Was he serious?

So many questions.

This was the first round in a hyper casual tournament at an FLGS with basically peanuts at stake for prizes.  Maybe he cared about the prizes?  I certainly didn't.
And he was 100% serious. 
Of course it was absolutely his right to prevent me from undoing, but he lost the game as a result.  His mistake ended up squandering what would be his very last turn, and I would have let him take it back, since I don't like winning on a technicality...unless its funny to do so :)

I'd played with this group before, and many of them would let a no-new-info undo slide.  This was a new guy that I had never met though, and probably he'd never asked for an undo in this setting before to know it would have flown?  This was a little over 2 years ago.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 06:36:49 pm by weesh »
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teamlyle

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2018, 11:17:10 pm »
+10

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2018, 03:08:37 am »
+6

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

See I don't get that at all... your way of wining was every bit as valid as their desired way of winning. They made a major mistake in not greening sooner; not noticing the 3-pile possibility. It's one thing to play for fun, but if you allow those sorts of undos, you're basically saying that doing anything unexpected that wins you the game is not a valid strategy to take in games you play. I don't know anyone else who would would allow the "undo" in that situation.
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2018, 04:19:31 am »
+3

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Wow your friends are terrible losers. I'm sorry for you. :(
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markusin

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2018, 08:47:07 am »
+1

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

See I don't get that at all... your way of wining was every bit as valid as their desired way of winning. They made a major mistake in not greening sooner; not noticing the 3-pile possibility. It's one thing to play for fun, but if you allow those sorts of undos, you're basically saying that doing anything unexpected that wins you the game is not a valid strategy to take in games you play. I don't know anyone else who would would allow the "undo" in that situation.

Would it really have been so terrible for them to just learn their lesson and simply play a new game with new engines and hopefully not make the same mistake? I'd be a bit more willing to let it slide in this case because it's the Platinum pile and it's easy to miss that there are only 16 copies of Platinum in the pile.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2018, 09:16:24 am »
+2

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?
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weesh

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2018, 12:44:49 pm »
0

Would it really have been so terrible for them to just learn their lesson and simply play a new game with new engines and hopefully not make the same mistake? I'd be a bit more willing to let it slide in this case because it's the Platinum pile and it's easy to miss that there are only 16 copies of Platinum in the pile.

Yeah, letting them go back on that limits the effectiveness of the lesson they should have learned.

I used to have interactions with professional go and chess players, and they would do teaching games with me, and then go over the games afterwards.

the reviews of games stopped at the most critical mistake I made.  even if that mistake was only 1/3 through the game, they would not review any of the game past that point.  Basically, they knew that the most valuable thing they could do was end on the most important lesson, so I wouldn't forget it. 
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2018, 12:46:57 pm »
+4

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Game outcome aside, he won because he came away with this story; and we won because we got to hear it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2018, 02:22:12 pm »
+1

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Good point; if there were some actual universal thing that tracks the wins and losses of all games, then it would have recorded a win for teamlyle, after which it would have recorded a new game played as a variant where everyone starts with a bunch of stuff in their deck already, with a different winner of that variant game.
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JW

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2018, 02:28:23 pm »
+2

Would it really have been so terrible for them to just learn their lesson and simply play a new game with new engines and hopefully not make the same mistake? I'd be a bit more willing to let it slide in this case because it's the Platinum pile and it's easy to miss that there are only 16 copies of Platinum in the pile.

There are only 12 copies of Platinum, which is why the pile runs out so quickly!
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2018, 02:44:04 pm »
+1

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Good point; if there were some actual universal thing that tracks the wins and losses of all games, then it would have recorded a win for teamlyle, after which it would have recorded a new game played as a variant where everyone starts with a bunch of stuff in their deck already, with a different winner of that variant game.

I think in situations like this you can just score it as victory inside your own head and let them have their fun redoing it.
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teamlyle

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2018, 03:55:41 pm »
+1

Lol, just a disclaimer: my friends are actually pretty nice, they just can't stand losing at Dominion.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2018, 04:12:58 pm »
+3

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Game outcome aside, he won because he came away with this story; and we won because we got to hear it.

So really, we won. Yay, us!
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2018, 04:30:02 pm »
+3

So really, we won. Yay, us!

Two years later, teamlyle is going to tell his IRL friends about some forum posters who were such sore losers that they claimed to have won a game they didn't even play.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2018, 04:59:32 pm »
+1

I'll deny horseshit undos, but I've even allowed someone to undo wishing well to play a Ratcatcher with the understanding he wouldn't change his wish (he didn't).  On the other hand, maybe I've just played enough MTG to not get too miffed if someone denies them.  That game has much less takebacks acceptable in competitive play.  Like, don't make mistakes.  I feel like the rigor of not making mistakes makes you a better player.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2018, 05:09:19 pm »
0

I'll deny horseshit undos, but I've even allowed someone to undo wishing well to play a Ratcatcher with the understanding he wouldn't change his wish (he didn't).  On the other hand, maybe I've just played enough MTG to not get too miffed if someone denies them.  That game has much less takebacks acceptable in competitive play.  Like, don't make mistakes.  I feel like the rigor of not making mistakes makes you a better player.

In a game like MTG, it's hard to find a true case of a "no-information" undo when you take into account information you unwittingly reveal to an opponent. There's a lot more long term information available to learn in a game like MTG (such as what card(s) one is holding in their hand).

Also I guess the mana system gets messy, and no one wants to take years to let someone perfectly optimize their mana usage.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2018, 08:33:01 pm »
0

Interestingly enough; this question came up several times last night when playing Gaia Project (basically Terra Mystica 2.0). There were multiple times when a player (myself and the others) would realize that they forgot to do certain things, or took one type of resource when they could have taken others, etc. And we would check with the other player "do you mind if I take 3 credits instead of this ore?" In some situations, the question was asked as late as a couple turns later.

For the most part, we were far more lenient than I would normally be in a game; but I think a lot of that is due to the nature of Gaia Project. Those types of decisions are very unlikely to ever either be based on or affect the decisions of other players. As a game with no random elements whatsoever, there's never a time of learning new information (other than what choice your opponent will make; but again, that rarely changes those sorts of decisions). So it felt quite different to something like Dominion, where it is normal that seeing the top card of your deck could easily affect your other choices.

There was one time that I actually did disallow an "undo" though; when a player pointed out that another player, who had passed at least 3 turns ago, could have and should have taken an action he could have taken before passing. It wasn't even the player himself asking for the undo, but a more experienced player who was helping all the newer players with things like that. But in that case, I said that it was simply too many turns ago; that too much had happened since.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2018, 08:21:56 am »
+2

It seems to me that parity in the game is more important than any given position on undos. Whenever I play tournament matches (which is not for some time but I might get back into it), I always request from my opponent that an agreement be made that we will both honour. I request no-information undos to be granted and nothing else and every time the opponent has agreed. However, if the opponent said "no, I'd rather grant no undos" then I'd be happy with that (I'd just play quite a bit more slowly). I have never yet had someone agree to granting undos on a specified scheme then deny in-game. If anyone did, I would consider that to be cheating.

Unfortunately, there's just not time to do this in casual matching-play. When I'm settling in for 6 games against someone, I don't mind having a 3min chat about undos, but that's not really feasible when people are just bouncing about and matching up. My method for that has been to assume (based on good data) that most people allow no-info undos and obvious-misclick undos (I don't think the latter are appropriate for tournmant play just because the definition is too subjective) and to know that this is also my preference, so to play as if that's the case, and blacklist anyone who plays no-undo. I don't blacklist people who play no-info with no leniency for obvious misclicks, because, as I said, that's fairly subjective, so I leave this as a grey area and just accept that I might be playing as if I'll be granted those undos and then just occasionally not be granted them and have to suck it up. I then just blacklist anyone who plays total no-undo. It's not because I think it's cheating or even that it's unsportsmanlike - it's just not how I like to play, so I let them have their dominion online and I'll have mine.

The one thing that I absolutely cannot stand is if a player is inconsistent. If a player requests an undo of me then I assume that means they would grant that undo if I requested it. If someone requests a no-info undo then denies that to me then I wish there were a more severe blacklist (blacklist+report or something) that I can do, because that's just plain cheating in my view. If they request an "obvious-misclick" undo then don't grant me one then maybe we just differ on what's obvious. That's too subjective to get too annoyed about.

Similarly, if people spam undo requests at me for clear "I'll try this and see what cards I draw then undo if they're not what I want" reasons, then I'll deny, then ask them to stop, then eventually blacklist. A form of dominion where you just get to explore all the options for your turn then pick the one that worked best at the end is not a form of dominion I like.

The key all through here is that, though I have a particular undo preference (grant no-info undos always, grant obvious misclicks outside tournament play to taste), what is much more important to me is that a player be consistent, and that both players be playing on the same system in any one game. Because of that, I think a few set positions (for instance, never allow, always allow no-info undos but never anything else, always allow no-info undos and ask on anything else) should be allowed for specification in match-searching, so that there is less misunderstanding and conflict.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:23:59 am by cascadestyler »
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"You can't help people being right for the wrong reasons...This fear of finding oneself in bad company is not an expression of political purity; it is an expression of a lack of self-confidence."

- Arthur Koestler

BaumDZ

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2018, 01:10:56 pm »
+1

Today I played a game against [unnamed opponent] who was playing a herald strategy and also had an ambassador...

Long story short they kept playing herald, ultimately forcing an ambassador from a hand that they did not want to give me any of the cards. They got pretty angry when I denied the undo request and called me annoying... but I felt that was a consequence of their engine (which they bought a curse to drive) and I laughed IRL because it ended up being a strategy with an apparent flaw. IDK if they thought that herald gave you a choice to play a revealed action but it definitely does not.

Anyway, I wanted to share this funny. I made them eventually resign when I had the $$ for a final province and they did not want to see the end :,(

I also did not get to have much of a convo because I play on my phone and the messaging with my phone is poor... I really need to buy a desk top.

For clarification, a "no-info" undo would be like switching +action with a +buy choice? I am fine with those but not wjen someone draws (unless they knew the top card already), etc
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Rabid

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2018, 02:02:56 pm »
+1

The interface for ambassador can be confusing.
If you only have one card in hand it auto selects it.
So you then click on it and return, when what you mean to do is reveal, but not return.

You are only forced to reveal a card with amb, the return bit is optional.
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BaumDZ

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2018, 05:44:35 pm »
+1

It was not that part that they were trying to undo, I dont think. It was the accidental playing of the ambassador due to playing herald.

The interface for ambassador can be confusing.
If you only have one card in hand it auto selects it.
So you then click on it and return, when what you mean to do is reveal, but not return.

You are only forced to reveal a card with amb, the return bit is optional.
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