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Author Topic: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online  (Read 2882 times)

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faust

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2018, 09:13:37 am »
+1

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?

I don't think I've ever seen it, but maybe people do things like that and I just don't notice?
Maybe people don't do it because it generally won't work.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2018, 09:34:07 am »
0

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?

I don't think I've ever seen it, but maybe people do things like that and I just don't notice?
Maybe people don't do it because it generally won't work.

It works once you learn to adapt your wishes.
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Oyvind

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2018, 09:44:18 am »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.

Abetting other players' cheating by deciding not to care isn't exactly a healthy attitude. It encourages such players to keep asking for malicious undos. This has a detrimental effect on everyone who plays those players in the future.

And if the point is to make things more fun, letting an opponent undo a misclick or mistake from rules confusion can do that, but letting your opponent cheat probably won't.

My philosophy is, give them the undo if it's something you'd give them in a casual real-life game. In my IRL games, doing something like playing a card and then saying, "No, wait, I don't want to do that" happens all the time.

I'm sorry I can't upvote you more than once for this!
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2018, 08:23:13 pm »
+7

I think it's mostly a cultural thing.

The playing culture established by the top players is to allow Undos, even in competitive matches.

It's easy for me to imagine the alternate universe, where the culture of the top players is to always deny Undos -- but I'm glad that's not the case. This universe is better.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2018, 10:59:43 am »
+2

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.
That, to me, feels more like setting the bar for cheating than setting the bar for poor etiquette.

A nobler standard might be the one the late great Jon Postel established in the early days of specifying the protocols underpinning the Internet: "be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others".
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2018, 11:16:19 am »
0

Sorry if I was unclear... I meant that I don't ask for an undo if I wouldn't grant my opponent asking for the same undo.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2018, 11:17:39 am »
+4

I don't generally play online, but my policy would be the same policy I use in any real life game of any board game... allow undos as long as no new information has been revealed. And honestly, I feel like the software should enforce this... automatically allow undo without needing to request it in those cases, and don't ever allow it in other cases.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2018, 11:37:07 am »
+6

I don't generally play online, but my policy would be the same policy I use in any real life game of any board game... allow undos as long as no new information has been revealed. And honestly, I feel like the software should enforce this... automatically allow undo without needing to request it in those cases, and don't ever allow it in other cases.

My guess is that it is harder than it looks for a computer to identify no new information undos.
How about the case of known (but forgotten) cards in deck vs Wishing Well.

What do you do in real life if someone plays village, draws, then realises they forgot to call ratcatcher to trash curse from hand?
It is an information undo, but I would expect most home players to allow an undo.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2018, 11:47:32 am »
0

I think setting the match's undo steps rules at the beginning would solve a lot of problems.
Like if you could specify before queuing in whether undo steps are always or never allowed?


That way, the moderators could find all the people who ever select "never allowed" and ban their accounts automatically so no one ever has to play with them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 11:49:15 am by Screwyioux »
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2018, 12:13:44 pm »
+5

That way, the moderators could find all the people who ever select "never allowed" and ban their accounts automatically so no one ever has to play with them.

Why should a person be banned for literally following the rules of the game as written?
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2018, 12:17:45 pm »
0


What do you do in real life if someone plays village, draws, then realises they forgot to call ratcatcher to trash curse from hand?
It is an information undo, but I would expect most home players to allow an undo.

In most normal situations, I (and the people I play with) wouldn't allow that sort of undo... the person has seen a new card; the general case is that that new card could have given them information they used to decide to call Ratcatcher... even if they weren't basing the decision on that new card; the person should understand that they can't really "know" for sure that the decision wasn't influenced. We would allow it if it's a new player learning the game or something like that.

*Edit* Oh, unless you meant that they played the Village, but haven't yet drawn the card for it. In which case we would allow it, because the person who played Village hasn't gotten any new information (it doesn't matter that the opponent's got the information that the person has a Village in hand. The point of "new information" is that it's information that can affect your decisions). If an opponent made a comment like "darn, he isn't calling his Ratcatcher", then we wouldn't allow it, because the person has gotten new information that the opponent wanted them to call the Ratcatcher. But that isn't a thing that can happen online.

We have a similar situation come up often in Tichu... the rules say you must call Tichu before you have played a card. Often times, a person will play a card and then immediately remember that they meant to call Tichu. If the person whose turn it is next hasn't reacted in any way to that card being played, then we'll generally allow the person to still call Tichu. But if that person does anything at all as a response to the play, then we don't allow it.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:20:37 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2018, 12:18:16 pm »
+1

That way, the moderators could find all the people who ever select "never allowed" and ban their accounts automatically so no one ever has to play with them.

Why should a person be banned for literally following the rules of the game as written?

That last sentence was a joke. Obviously they wouldn't be banned. They would just suffer longer queue times.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2018, 12:21:16 pm »
+4

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:22:52 pm by Screwyioux »
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Rabid

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2018, 01:39:49 pm »
+4


What do you do in real life if someone plays village, draws, then realises they forgot to call ratcatcher to trash curse from hand?
It is an information undo, but I would expect most home players to allow an undo.

In most normal situations, I (and the people I play with) wouldn't allow that sort of undo... the person has seen a new card; the general case is that that new card could have given them information they used to decide to call Ratcatcher... even if they weren't basing the decision on that new card; the person should understand that they can't really "know" for sure that the decision wasn't influenced. We would allow it if it's a new player learning the game or something like that.

Interesting. My play group found those sort of strict rules slowed down the game too much. We find it more fun to play fast and be generous with undos.

The test we use is not: ""know" for sure that the decision wasn't influenced".
It is: Does the group as a whole have more fun is we allow this undo.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2018, 02:51:26 pm »
+4

In practice, I give a very wide benefit of the doubt on undos. I can't remember the last time I denied one. The vast majority of people know what is a reasonable undo and ask accordingly. But for me, questioning someone's undo is a valuable form of engagement with that player. What were they trying to do? What is the nature of their mistake? What can both of us learn from this? How can it be resolved in a fair and equitable way? I think asking these questions every time (if only for a split second in obvious cases) ultimately makes for a better experience for everyone. I offer these pages from LIAR GAME as additional explanation.

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2018, 03:44:38 am »
+4

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
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Simon Jester

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2018, 03:54:40 am »
+3

I don't like undoes. I just don't. To me it's part of the game to be aware of what you're doing and if you're forgetting your tavern mat or don't pay attention of your curser, that's on you. The only undoes I seem as "fair" is where the implementetion is sub-optimal as in with GM where the coppers shouldn't play automatically and it's easy to forget about it.

However, I'm playing Dominion for fun and if the vast majority don't view misclics as part of the game, I adapt. I still try to play "my game" and I try to not ask for undoes most of the time but allow every singe undo for my opponent. Please cheat me if anyone like, I yet have to notice someone doing it.

I still get annoyed when someone asks for multiple undoes during a game. Idk, it just disrupting the game's pace in a way I found discomforting and I hate being forced given the choice to let my opponent win even if they - according to the version I'm playing - has messed up and should just eat it.

My two cents. I realize I'm in a minority viewing it like this and that's all right. I blame my IRL play group.

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2018, 03:58:23 am »
0

I don't generally play online, but my policy would be the same policy I use in any real life game of any board game... allow undos as long as no new information has been revealed. And honestly, I feel like the software should enforce this... automatically allow undo without needing to request it in those cases, and don't ever allow it in other cases.

Problem with this is it blocks one of the most common misclics, playing your terminal first before any splitters. If this would be implemented we could just skip undoes al together I would say (yes please, lel). 

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2018, 04:09:34 am »
+2

I don't like undoes. I just don't. To me it's part of the game to be aware of what you're doing and if you're forgetting your tavern mat or don't pay attention of your curser, that's on you. The only undoes I seem as "fair" is where the implementetion is sub-optimal as in with GM where the coppers shouldn't play automatically and it's easy to forget about it.
I would argue that the implementation of the start-of-turn phase is in fact suboptimal since it's hidden away in the log. If there was an "end start-of-turn phase" button similar to how there is an "end action phase" button, it would be something else (though I still grant undoes if someone mistakenly ends their action phase).
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2018, 09:09:41 am »
+1

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.

To tell you the truth, I haven't had much of a problem finding an open ear (it is the information age, after all). Plenty of closed ones too, but that's alright. They've always been around, and they always will be. Nothing has ever been about them.
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O

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2018, 12:19:03 pm »
+2

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.

I think his response was a correct one to posters pedantry. They were entirely missing the point. If the patronizing aspect of that is bothersome, perhaps don't derail threads with irrelevant hypotheticals of "undo abuse" that aren't frequent real
I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.

To tell you the truth, I haven't had much of a problem finding an open ear (it is the information age, after all). Plenty of closed ones too, but that's alright. They've always been around, and they always will be. Nothing has ever been about them.

Agreed. People on F.ds react very poorly to their unhelpful pedantry being called out. I wouldn't say your post has been poorly received at all and I don't think you were patronizing in the slightest.

Actually, I think posting those wishing well hypotheticals in the first place is the more patronizing thing to do.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2018, 10:42:08 am »
+6

After not playing for several years it was a surprise to see the undo feature when I came back.   

It is still unbelievably counter intuitive for me to even request undos.   I almost always will just mumble 'dammit' and move on.  I still remember the first time I asked for an undo, after hundreds of games, and it was denied by someone who I had even granted an undo earlier in the game! 

I think it a cumbersome and awkward feature.  No undo request is without context and a significant minority of requests could be called angle-shooting (in the broadest definition) in that they are requested after hidden information is revealed.  That's not to say people are nefariously taking advantage of it, just the facts of how they exist.   I still grant 99% of requests, nothing is on the line and I don't want to ruffle feathers.   And I have began to request a few more myself, though a very slight amount of requesting compared to my opponent's(which isn't to say that I think I misclick or blunder significantly less often than my opponents, I just keep going). 

So while I would never be the dickhead who denies all the requests, if an advanced option to turn off undo was available I would opt out of it without hesitation.  Which is to say I can sympathize with some of the possible motivations of those dickheads.  It would make for quicker games and without the clumsy moments of undos beings requested or not and granted or not, and everything about the rules and mechanics would be fair and known before the game starts.  I think it obvious that if this game was in any sort of serious competitive setting the undo feature would not even be a consideration.  Which is not to say Dominion should be competitive in the way other games are, Dominion is fun and casual and that's great.   However this is an amazing game and there is nothing inherently anti-competitive about it, meaning it could fairly be gambled on, so my sense is that the platform mechanics should strive to facilitate the game's most competitive potential. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 10:44:17 am by Obi Wan Bonogi »
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2018, 11:04:13 am »
+4

Obi Wan!! Good to see you around after so many years.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2018, 11:17:41 am »
0

Nice to be back   :D
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2018, 01:19:05 pm »
+8

...I still remember the first time I asked for an undo, after hundreds of games, and it was denied by someone who I had even granted an undo earlier in the game...

heh

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

alright, whatever, he's taking this game seriously, let's move on.

not 10 min later, he made the same mistake, with grave consequence, and asked for an undo!
"THIS ISN'T THE KIDDY TABLE!"

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