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Screwyioux

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To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« on: April 27, 2018, 06:52:13 pm »
+15

I've had a hunch for a while, one more about people than Dominion, but now I have some numbers suggesting it too, and those are 100% Dominion.

See, I have a blanket policy of blacklisting anyone who denies one of my undo steps for any reason. Granted, I don't request dubious ones (yes, subjective, I know-- not the point of this post), but as you can imagine, I have a decently long blacklist at this point.

I recently searched the Scavenger Leaderboard to compare it with my blacklist and not a single one of them is in the top 1000 players.

I play a LOT of games, against players of all skill levels, and it's easy to notice that skilled players tend not to deny undos very often. Do I have confirmation bias? Sure.

But referencing my blacklist against the leaderboard with zero overlap is also pretty convincing that denying your opponent an undo step betrays a lack of confidence in your play. That lack of confidence in turn suggests a deficit of skill, but that's to be expected if you create negative play experiences for yourself and your opponent.

So if you're one of these people, holding yourselves back with a toxic attitude toward the game and your fellow players, I want to challenge you to reconsider. Next time you're thinking about pressing "deny," think twice. Grant the step and see how much better your games get, and how much better you get as a player.
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teamlyle

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2018, 08:03:51 pm »
+2

Thank you! Someone needed to make this post.

I can sort of understand why some people don't like granting undos, but I personally think that having fun and seeing who's the better Dominion player (or who's more lucky) should take priority over winning, especially winning over a misclick.

Actually, I have 2 people on my blacklist (I know it would be bad to say their names in public) who both denied my undo request after I accidentally played my Coppers when I wanted to buy Grand Market. Both are in the top 1000, and one is even near the very top, around place 20 or 30. I'm not rooting for anyone to fail, but please, tell me they didn't get so high up by preying on misclicks... :P
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2018, 08:05:47 pm »
+4

Is that the only reason you blacklist? I feel there are plenty of people who are skilled and do reasonable undo's, but are jerks. Of the 52 players I've blacklisted (I have a straight-from-deny-to-blacklist policy as well), 23 are in the top 1000, with a handful as high as 100-200. (Granted, I have recently set my match-me-against-minimum-player-rating to be the top 900-ish players, but that's beside the point.)

Anyways .. I've wondered if any players eventually get blacklisted by everyone except other commonly-blacklisted players, thus perpetuating their play styles. You'd think people would eventually "take the hint", but may not if they tend to only hang out with other jerks.

Or they may feel they lose because they allow too many undos, thus falling in a cycle.

Is there any sort of timeout to blacklist? It might not be a bad idea if, say, 12 months after user X blacklists user Y, they become un-blacklisted. Cus ya know, people can change.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2018, 08:51:42 pm »
+1

I also feel that friendly chat can be a great way to learn from your opponents, pick their brain, etc. "Why did you open x/y?", "Do you think Gardens could have caught up?", etc. But the people that are not friendly chatters miss out on this. I wonder how much this plays into their ranking. Of course everyone learns differently - maybe it doesn't matter.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2018, 09:53:40 pm »
+5

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2018, 09:57:35 pm »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.

I'm not saying you should do it because it's human decency (even though I do also think that). I'm saying you should do it because not doing it cultivates an attitude that makes you a worse player.
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teamlyle

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2018, 11:57:30 pm »
+3

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.

If I deny an undo request, it's me saying that I care more about my rating than having a good game of Dominion, unless I believe that not misclicking is part of the skill in Dominion. It's not morally wrong, in my opinion, to have this mentality, but I prefer not to play with such people.
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Triumph44

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 01:03:57 am »
+3

Requesting an Undo can be more egregious than denying one - the other day I had a guy request an Undo 3 steps into my turn because he realized he put his Overlord on his Tavern Mat and wouldn't be able to get it off of there.  It took him several minutes to realize he had to undo 4 more steps, which he did one at a time, and he was not responding to any of my chats about speeding up the process.  I allowed him the Undos but immediately blacklisted him after the game.

I've seen this discussion a thousand times in different games communities and there's always going to be a tiny subset of people who don't believe in Undos for any reason; they were raised on Chess or Go or some game that frowns upon takebacks and that's final.  There's another small subset of people who won't do it because they believe it will make their opponent angry causing them to play worse. And there will be people who will abuse people's generosity and try to get Undos when they've learned new information.   

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2018, 02:01:29 am »
+1

I only ever match against 52+ which is like top 800 or something like that, and I've blacklisted 6 people for denying undos.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2018, 03:05:39 am »
+5

I'm fine undoing things when its a misclick or just a small mistake. but the time I do deny undos is when I feel like someone plays through a hand trying to 3 pile or something, realizes his draws didn't work and undos to the start of the turn so that I won't be able to end the game to his greedy attempt to end the game. I'm fine with people using undo, but if you attempt something risky and it doesn't work out and you want to back out of it. That is really the only time I would deny it since I don't think that is really fair.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 06:04:23 am »
+7

Start burning the Midnight oil and you'll find great Japanese players who are quite willing to deny undos. People who aren't good tend to not be on f.ds, and it's an f.ds exclusive policy to grant undos gratuitously. It's much less a lack of skill and confidence as much as it is a different culture on f.ds versus the rest of the world.
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faust

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 08:40:34 am »
+10

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 09:41:52 am »
0

Start burning the Midnight oil and you'll find great Japanese players who are quite willing to deny undos. People who aren't good tend to not be on f.ds, and it's an f.ds exclusive policy to grant undos gratuitously. It's much less a lack of skill and confidence as much as it is a different culture on f.ds versus the rest of the world.

Agreed, but that's why I also posted this on Reddit.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 09:44:15 am »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 01:47:10 pm »
+3

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.

I had a similar situation in a league match where based on the log, it looked like they wanted to undo a play of Hunting Party; after chatting clarified that wasn't what would be undone, I granted the request. It would be nice if we didn't have to chat just to figure that out though.

I started a new "Interface Issues" thread on the ShiT forums about this - http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2925.0
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 06:10:34 pm »
+3

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.

If I deny an undo request, it's me saying that I care more about my rating than having a good game of Dominion, unless I believe that not misclicking is part of the skill in Dominion. It's not morally wrong, in my opinion, to have this mentality, but I prefer not to play with such people.


Yep, this.  I'm theoretically there to at least have some fun/enjoyment.  I don't enjoy a game where my opponent misclicks or makes an obvious error, and I win due to that.  I'll even point out obvious mistakes before going on with my turn (Most common one: player opens with a Debt card using auto-buy, forgets to play Coppers to pay off debt.)

A tournament or league might be a different situation, but even there a misclick that doesn't reveal any new info is just not worth not allowing.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 06:28:56 pm »
0

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2018, 06:39:37 pm »
+2

I do occasionally suggest undos for my opponent after they make a move that's obviously not going to do what they hope it will. For instance, recently someone got Lost arts on Envoy, then Inheritance on it. I let them know, your Estates aren't going to get +1 Action. They took me up on my offer of undo and inherited Lighthouses instead.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2018, 06:44:41 pm »
+4

I feel the original point of this thread was to possibly explain the correlation between people who blindly disallow undo requests & people who are not skilled, but has since evolved into a discussion about when undos are and are not warranted. Which are completely different discussions.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 10:46:25 pm »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 10:48:20 pm by Screwyioux »
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2018, 10:47:19 pm »
0

I feel the original point of this thread was to possibly explain the correlation between people who blindly disallow undo requests & people who are not skilled, but has since evolved into a discussion about when undos are and are not warranted. Which are completely different discussions.

Correct, I figured it would (it's the internet after, all), but it's good to point out the sidetracking happening all the same.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2018, 11:06:56 pm »
+10

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.

Abetting other players' cheating by deciding not to care isn't exactly a healthy attitude. It encourages such players to keep asking for malicious undos. This has a detrimental effect on everyone who plays those players in the future.

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2018, 12:51:30 pm »
+5

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.

Abetting other players' cheating by deciding not to care isn't exactly a healthy attitude. It encourages such players to keep asking for malicious undos. This has a detrimental effect on everyone who plays those players in the future.

And if the point is to make things more fun, letting an opponent undo a misclick or mistake from rules confusion can do that, but letting your opponent cheat probably won't.

My philosophy is, give them the undo if it's something you'd give them in a casual real-life game. In my IRL games, doing something like playing a card and then saying, "No, wait, I don't want to do that" happens all the time.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2018, 10:48:18 pm »
+5

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2018, 08:53:10 am »
0

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?

I don't think I've ever seen it, but maybe people do things like that and I just don't notice?
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2018, 09:13:37 am »
+1

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?

I don't think I've ever seen it, but maybe people do things like that and I just don't notice?
Maybe people don't do it because it generally won't work.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2018, 09:34:07 am »
0

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?

I don't think I've ever seen it, but maybe people do things like that and I just don't notice?
Maybe people don't do it because it generally won't work.

It works once you learn to adapt your wishes.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2018, 09:44:18 am »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.

Abetting other players' cheating by deciding not to care isn't exactly a healthy attitude. It encourages such players to keep asking for malicious undos. This has a detrimental effect on everyone who plays those players in the future.

And if the point is to make things more fun, letting an opponent undo a misclick or mistake from rules confusion can do that, but letting your opponent cheat probably won't.

My philosophy is, give them the undo if it's something you'd give them in a casual real-life game. In my IRL games, doing something like playing a card and then saying, "No, wait, I don't want to do that" happens all the time.

I'm sorry I can't upvote you more than once for this!
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2018, 08:23:13 pm »
+7

I think it's mostly a cultural thing.

The playing culture established by the top players is to allow Undos, even in competitive matches.

It's easy for me to imagine the alternate universe, where the culture of the top players is to always deny Undos -- but I'm glad that's not the case. This universe is better.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2018, 10:59:43 am »
+2

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.
That, to me, feels more like setting the bar for cheating than setting the bar for poor etiquette.

A nobler standard might be the one the late great Jon Postel established in the early days of specifying the protocols underpinning the Internet: "be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others".
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2018, 11:16:19 am »
0

Sorry if I was unclear... I meant that I don't ask for an undo if I wouldn't grant my opponent asking for the same undo.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2018, 11:17:39 am »
+4

I don't generally play online, but my policy would be the same policy I use in any real life game of any board game... allow undos as long as no new information has been revealed. And honestly, I feel like the software should enforce this... automatically allow undo without needing to request it in those cases, and don't ever allow it in other cases.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2018, 11:37:07 am »
+6

I don't generally play online, but my policy would be the same policy I use in any real life game of any board game... allow undos as long as no new information has been revealed. And honestly, I feel like the software should enforce this... automatically allow undo without needing to request it in those cases, and don't ever allow it in other cases.

My guess is that it is harder than it looks for a computer to identify no new information undos.
How about the case of known (but forgotten) cards in deck vs Wishing Well.

What do you do in real life if someone plays village, draws, then realises they forgot to call ratcatcher to trash curse from hand?
It is an information undo, but I would expect most home players to allow an undo.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2018, 11:47:32 am »
0

I think setting the match's undo steps rules at the beginning would solve a lot of problems.
Like if you could specify before queuing in whether undo steps are always or never allowed?


That way, the moderators could find all the people who ever select "never allowed" and ban their accounts automatically so no one ever has to play with them.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 11:49:15 am by Screwyioux »
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2018, 12:13:44 pm »
+5

That way, the moderators could find all the people who ever select "never allowed" and ban their accounts automatically so no one ever has to play with them.

Why should a person be banned for literally following the rules of the game as written?
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2018, 12:17:45 pm »
0


What do you do in real life if someone plays village, draws, then realises they forgot to call ratcatcher to trash curse from hand?
It is an information undo, but I would expect most home players to allow an undo.

In most normal situations, I (and the people I play with) wouldn't allow that sort of undo... the person has seen a new card; the general case is that that new card could have given them information they used to decide to call Ratcatcher... even if they weren't basing the decision on that new card; the person should understand that they can't really "know" for sure that the decision wasn't influenced. We would allow it if it's a new player learning the game or something like that.

*Edit* Oh, unless you meant that they played the Village, but haven't yet drawn the card for it. In which case we would allow it, because the person who played Village hasn't gotten any new information (it doesn't matter that the opponent's got the information that the person has a Village in hand. The point of "new information" is that it's information that can affect your decisions). If an opponent made a comment like "darn, he isn't calling his Ratcatcher", then we wouldn't allow it, because the person has gotten new information that the opponent wanted them to call the Ratcatcher. But that isn't a thing that can happen online.

We have a similar situation come up often in Tichu... the rules say you must call Tichu before you have played a card. Often times, a person will play a card and then immediately remember that they meant to call Tichu. If the person whose turn it is next hasn't reacted in any way to that card being played, then we'll generally allow the person to still call Tichu. But if that person does anything at all as a response to the play, then we don't allow it.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:20:37 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2018, 12:18:16 pm »
+1

That way, the moderators could find all the people who ever select "never allowed" and ban their accounts automatically so no one ever has to play with them.

Why should a person be banned for literally following the rules of the game as written?

That last sentence was a joke. Obviously they wouldn't be banned. They would just suffer longer queue times.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2018, 12:21:16 pm »
+4

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:22:52 pm by Screwyioux »
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2018, 01:39:49 pm »
+4


What do you do in real life if someone plays village, draws, then realises they forgot to call ratcatcher to trash curse from hand?
It is an information undo, but I would expect most home players to allow an undo.

In most normal situations, I (and the people I play with) wouldn't allow that sort of undo... the person has seen a new card; the general case is that that new card could have given them information they used to decide to call Ratcatcher... even if they weren't basing the decision on that new card; the person should understand that they can't really "know" for sure that the decision wasn't influenced. We would allow it if it's a new player learning the game or something like that.

Interesting. My play group found those sort of strict rules slowed down the game too much. We find it more fun to play fast and be generous with undos.

The test we use is not: ""know" for sure that the decision wasn't influenced".
It is: Does the group as a whole have more fun is we allow this undo.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2018, 02:51:26 pm »
+4

In practice, I give a very wide benefit of the doubt on undos. I can't remember the last time I denied one. The vast majority of people know what is a reasonable undo and ask accordingly. But for me, questioning someone's undo is a valuable form of engagement with that player. What were they trying to do? What is the nature of their mistake? What can both of us learn from this? How can it be resolved in a fair and equitable way? I think asking these questions every time (if only for a split second in obvious cases) ultimately makes for a better experience for everyone. I offer these pages from LIAR GAME as additional explanation.

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2018, 03:44:38 am »
+4

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2018, 03:54:40 am »
+3

I don't like undoes. I just don't. To me it's part of the game to be aware of what you're doing and if you're forgetting your tavern mat or don't pay attention of your curser, that's on you. The only undoes I seem as "fair" is where the implementetion is sub-optimal as in with GM where the coppers shouldn't play automatically and it's easy to forget about it.

However, I'm playing Dominion for fun and if the vast majority don't view misclics as part of the game, I adapt. I still try to play "my game" and I try to not ask for undoes most of the time but allow every singe undo for my opponent. Please cheat me if anyone like, I yet have to notice someone doing it.

I still get annoyed when someone asks for multiple undoes during a game. Idk, it just disrupting the game's pace in a way I found discomforting and I hate being forced given the choice to let my opponent win even if they - according to the version I'm playing - has messed up and should just eat it.

My two cents. I realize I'm in a minority viewing it like this and that's all right. I blame my IRL play group.

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2018, 03:58:23 am »
0

I don't generally play online, but my policy would be the same policy I use in any real life game of any board game... allow undos as long as no new information has been revealed. And honestly, I feel like the software should enforce this... automatically allow undo without needing to request it in those cases, and don't ever allow it in other cases.

Problem with this is it blocks one of the most common misclics, playing your terminal first before any splitters. If this would be implemented we could just skip undoes al together I would say (yes please, lel). 

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2018, 04:09:34 am »
+2

I don't like undoes. I just don't. To me it's part of the game to be aware of what you're doing and if you're forgetting your tavern mat or don't pay attention of your curser, that's on you. The only undoes I seem as "fair" is where the implementetion is sub-optimal as in with GM where the coppers shouldn't play automatically and it's easy to forget about it.
I would argue that the implementation of the start-of-turn phase is in fact suboptimal since it's hidden away in the log. If there was an "end start-of-turn phase" button similar to how there is an "end action phase" button, it would be something else (though I still grant undoes if someone mistakenly ends their action phase).
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2018, 09:09:41 am »
+1

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.

To tell you the truth, I haven't had much of a problem finding an open ear (it is the information age, after all). Plenty of closed ones too, but that's alright. They've always been around, and they always will be. Nothing has ever been about them.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2018, 12:19:03 pm »
+2

I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.

I think his response was a correct one to posters pedantry. They were entirely missing the point. If the patronizing aspect of that is bothersome, perhaps don't derail threads with irrelevant hypotheticals of "undo abuse" that aren't frequent real
I'll also just reiterate that if you're coming back to this with whether or not certain steps should be granted, you're missing the point.
This post is about the denier, not the denied. It's about how your approach affects your experience and your development as a player and as a person, not about the game rules or the moral justification behind requesting the undo in the first place.
I'm sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with the playerbase, your skill as a player, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.
You might find more of an open ear if you took care to not make your posts sound patronizing. This is just me sharing some insight on how to improve your relationship with f.ds, your skill as a poster, and yourself. How you choose to react to that and what you choose to do with it is 100% your call.

To tell you the truth, I haven't had much of a problem finding an open ear (it is the information age, after all). Plenty of closed ones too, but that's alright. They've always been around, and they always will be. Nothing has ever been about them.

Agreed. People on F.ds react very poorly to their unhelpful pedantry being called out. I wouldn't say your post has been poorly received at all and I don't think you were patronizing in the slightest.

Actually, I think posting those wishing well hypotheticals in the first place is the more patronizing thing to do.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2018, 10:42:08 am »
+6

After not playing for several years it was a surprise to see the undo feature when I came back.   

It is still unbelievably counter intuitive for me to even request undos.   I almost always will just mumble 'dammit' and move on.  I still remember the first time I asked for an undo, after hundreds of games, and it was denied by someone who I had even granted an undo earlier in the game! 

I think it a cumbersome and awkward feature.  No undo request is without context and a significant minority of requests could be called angle-shooting (in the broadest definition) in that they are requested after hidden information is revealed.  That's not to say people are nefariously taking advantage of it, just the facts of how they exist.   I still grant 99% of requests, nothing is on the line and I don't want to ruffle feathers.   And I have began to request a few more myself, though a very slight amount of requesting compared to my opponent's(which isn't to say that I think I misclick or blunder significantly less often than my opponents, I just keep going). 

So while I would never be the dickhead who denies all the requests, if an advanced option to turn off undo was available I would opt out of it without hesitation.  Which is to say I can sympathize with some of the possible motivations of those dickheads.  It would make for quicker games and without the clumsy moments of undos beings requested or not and granted or not, and everything about the rules and mechanics would be fair and known before the game starts.  I think it obvious that if this game was in any sort of serious competitive setting the undo feature would not even be a consideration.  Which is not to say Dominion should be competitive in the way other games are, Dominion is fun and casual and that's great.   However this is an amazing game and there is nothing inherently anti-competitive about it, meaning it could fairly be gambled on, so my sense is that the platform mechanics should strive to facilitate the game's most competitive potential. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 10:44:17 am by Obi Wan Bonogi »
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2018, 11:04:13 am »
+4

Obi Wan!! Good to see you around after so many years.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2018, 11:17:41 am »
0

Nice to be back   :D
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2018, 01:19:05 pm »
+8

...I still remember the first time I asked for an undo, after hundreds of games, and it was denied by someone who I had even granted an undo earlier in the game...

heh

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

alright, whatever, he's taking this game seriously, let's move on.

not 10 min later, he made the same mistake, with grave consequence, and asked for an undo!
"THIS ISN'T THE KIDDY TABLE!"

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2018, 04:14:23 pm »
+1

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

Was this in a tournament? Or just casual games at someone's house? Was he serious?

So many questions.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2018, 04:16:25 pm »
0

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

Was this in a tournament? Or just casual games at someone's house? Was he serious?

So many questions.

I was wondering the same! Unless it's a tournament scene (in which case I would think that undos in general would just not be allowed); it's pretty rare to play IRL dominion with people who aren't friends of yours.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2018, 05:51:52 pm »
0

I frequently play non-tournament games with relative strangers at FLGS games evenings. The only reason Dominion isn't one of them is that it's a lot of cards to lug about and I get my Dominion fix with friends.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2018, 06:18:55 pm »
+1

I was playing an in person game with someone, made a small mistake, and with no new information, asked to slightly redo it.
"this isn't the kiddy table"

Was this in a tournament? Or just casual games at someone's house? Was he serious?

So many questions.

This was the first round in a hyper casual tournament at an FLGS with basically peanuts at stake for prizes.  Maybe he cared about the prizes?  I certainly didn't.
And he was 100% serious. 
Of course it was absolutely his right to prevent me from undoing, but he lost the game as a result.  His mistake ended up squandering what would be his very last turn, and I would have let him take it back, since I don't like winning on a technicality...unless its funny to do so :)

I'd played with this group before, and many of them would let a no-new-info undo slide.  This was a new guy that I had never met though, and probably he'd never asked for an undo in this setting before to know it would have flown?  This was a little over 2 years ago.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 06:36:49 pm by weesh »
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2018, 11:17:10 pm »
+10

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2018, 03:08:37 am »
+6

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

See I don't get that at all... your way of wining was every bit as valid as their desired way of winning. They made a major mistake in not greening sooner; not noticing the 3-pile possibility. It's one thing to play for fun, but if you allow those sorts of undos, you're basically saying that doing anything unexpected that wins you the game is not a valid strategy to take in games you play. I don't know anyone else who would would allow the "undo" in that situation.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2018, 04:19:31 am »
+3

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Wow your friends are terrible losers. I'm sorry for you. :(
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2018, 08:47:07 am »
+1

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

See I don't get that at all... your way of wining was every bit as valid as their desired way of winning. They made a major mistake in not greening sooner; not noticing the 3-pile possibility. It's one thing to play for fun, but if you allow those sorts of undos, you're basically saying that doing anything unexpected that wins you the game is not a valid strategy to take in games you play. I don't know anyone else who would would allow the "undo" in that situation.

Would it really have been so terrible for them to just learn their lesson and simply play a new game with new engines and hopefully not make the same mistake? I'd be a bit more willing to let it slide in this case because it's the Platinum pile and it's easy to miss that there are only 16 copies of Platinum in the pile.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2018, 09:16:24 am »
+2

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2018, 12:44:49 pm »
0

Would it really have been so terrible for them to just learn their lesson and simply play a new game with new engines and hopefully not make the same mistake? I'd be a bit more willing to let it slide in this case because it's the Platinum pile and it's easy to miss that there are only 16 copies of Platinum in the pile.

Yeah, letting them go back on that limits the effectiveness of the lesson they should have learned.

I used to have interactions with professional go and chess players, and they would do teaching games with me, and then go over the games afterwards.

the reviews of games stopped at the most critical mistake I made.  even if that mistake was only 1/3 through the game, they would not review any of the game past that point.  Basically, they knew that the most valuable thing they could do was end on the most important lesson, so I wouldn't forget it. 
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2018, 12:46:57 pm »
+4

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Game outcome aside, he won because he came away with this story; and we won because we got to hear it.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2018, 02:22:12 pm »
+1

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Good point; if there were some actual universal thing that tracks the wins and losses of all games, then it would have recorded a win for teamlyle, after which it would have recorded a new game played as a variant where everyone starts with a bunch of stuff in their deck already, with a different winner of that variant game.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2018, 02:28:23 pm »
+2

Would it really have been so terrible for them to just learn their lesson and simply play a new game with new engines and hopefully not make the same mistake? I'd be a bit more willing to let it slide in this case because it's the Platinum pile and it's easy to miss that there are only 16 copies of Platinum in the pile.

There are only 12 copies of Platinum, which is why the pile runs out so quickly!
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2018, 02:44:04 pm »
+1

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Good point; if there were some actual universal thing that tracks the wins and losses of all games, then it would have recorded a win for teamlyle, after which it would have recorded a new game played as a variant where everyone starts with a bunch of stuff in their deck already, with a different winner of that variant game.

I think in situations like this you can just score it as victory inside your own head and let them have their fun redoing it.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2018, 03:55:41 pm »
+1

Lol, just a disclaimer: my friends are actually pretty nice, they just can't stand losing at Dominion.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2018, 04:12:58 pm »
+3

I was playing an IRL 4-player game about 2 years ago. I don't remember the exact details, but I calculated my chances of getting as unlucky as I did to be 1/660.

The other players build huge engines and I got frustrated, trying to keep it in. Since I was so far behind, I figured my only chance was to 3-pile and have them somehow not realize. They didn't green, and I kept thinking they'd go off any minute and demolish the Colonies (they had already built up to double-colony each turn.)

I was winning 10-0-0-0 on my turn with 2 piles empty and one Platinum left, and I had enough to buy the Platinum. I bought it, and was like "Okay it's over gg everyone count up points." This caused an uproar and everyone else "asked" for an undo...

Undo request was denied.

I wish. They proceeded to do their turns over and buy all the colonies.

Lol feels bad man. But who really won that game? In the end, for all it actually matters, who really won?

Game outcome aside, he won because he came away with this story; and we won because we got to hear it.

So really, we won. Yay, us!
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2018, 04:30:02 pm »
+3

So really, we won. Yay, us!

Two years later, teamlyle is going to tell his IRL friends about some forum posters who were such sore losers that they claimed to have won a game they didn't even play.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2018, 04:59:32 pm »
+1

I'll deny horseshit undos, but I've even allowed someone to undo wishing well to play a Ratcatcher with the understanding he wouldn't change his wish (he didn't).  On the other hand, maybe I've just played enough MTG to not get too miffed if someone denies them.  That game has much less takebacks acceptable in competitive play.  Like, don't make mistakes.  I feel like the rigor of not making mistakes makes you a better player.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2018, 05:09:19 pm »
0

I'll deny horseshit undos, but I've even allowed someone to undo wishing well to play a Ratcatcher with the understanding he wouldn't change his wish (he didn't).  On the other hand, maybe I've just played enough MTG to not get too miffed if someone denies them.  That game has much less takebacks acceptable in competitive play.  Like, don't make mistakes.  I feel like the rigor of not making mistakes makes you a better player.

In a game like MTG, it's hard to find a true case of a "no-information" undo when you take into account information you unwittingly reveal to an opponent. There's a lot more long term information available to learn in a game like MTG (such as what card(s) one is holding in their hand).

Also I guess the mana system gets messy, and no one wants to take years to let someone perfectly optimize their mana usage.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2018, 08:33:01 pm »
0

Interestingly enough; this question came up several times last night when playing Gaia Project (basically Terra Mystica 2.0). There were multiple times when a player (myself and the others) would realize that they forgot to do certain things, or took one type of resource when they could have taken others, etc. And we would check with the other player "do you mind if I take 3 credits instead of this ore?" In some situations, the question was asked as late as a couple turns later.

For the most part, we were far more lenient than I would normally be in a game; but I think a lot of that is due to the nature of Gaia Project. Those types of decisions are very unlikely to ever either be based on or affect the decisions of other players. As a game with no random elements whatsoever, there's never a time of learning new information (other than what choice your opponent will make; but again, that rarely changes those sorts of decisions). So it felt quite different to something like Dominion, where it is normal that seeing the top card of your deck could easily affect your other choices.

There was one time that I actually did disallow an "undo" though; when a player pointed out that another player, who had passed at least 3 turns ago, could have and should have taken an action he could have taken before passing. It wasn't even the player himself asking for the undo, but a more experienced player who was helping all the newer players with things like that. But in that case, I said that it was simply too many turns ago; that too much had happened since.
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cascadestyler

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2018, 08:21:56 am »
+2

It seems to me that parity in the game is more important than any given position on undos. Whenever I play tournament matches (which is not for some time but I might get back into it), I always request from my opponent that an agreement be made that we will both honour. I request no-information undos to be granted and nothing else and every time the opponent has agreed. However, if the opponent said "no, I'd rather grant no undos" then I'd be happy with that (I'd just play quite a bit more slowly). I have never yet had someone agree to granting undos on a specified scheme then deny in-game. If anyone did, I would consider that to be cheating.

Unfortunately, there's just not time to do this in casual matching-play. When I'm settling in for 6 games against someone, I don't mind having a 3min chat about undos, but that's not really feasible when people are just bouncing about and matching up. My method for that has been to assume (based on good data) that most people allow no-info undos and obvious-misclick undos (I don't think the latter are appropriate for tournmant play just because the definition is too subjective) and to know that this is also my preference, so to play as if that's the case, and blacklist anyone who plays no-undo. I don't blacklist people who play no-info with no leniency for obvious misclicks, because, as I said, that's fairly subjective, so I leave this as a grey area and just accept that I might be playing as if I'll be granted those undos and then just occasionally not be granted them and have to suck it up. I then just blacklist anyone who plays total no-undo. It's not because I think it's cheating or even that it's unsportsmanlike - it's just not how I like to play, so I let them have their dominion online and I'll have mine.

The one thing that I absolutely cannot stand is if a player is inconsistent. If a player requests an undo of me then I assume that means they would grant that undo if I requested it. If someone requests a no-info undo then denies that to me then I wish there were a more severe blacklist (blacklist+report or something) that I can do, because that's just plain cheating in my view. If they request an "obvious-misclick" undo then don't grant me one then maybe we just differ on what's obvious. That's too subjective to get too annoyed about.

Similarly, if people spam undo requests at me for clear "I'll try this and see what cards I draw then undo if they're not what I want" reasons, then I'll deny, then ask them to stop, then eventually blacklist. A form of dominion where you just get to explore all the options for your turn then pick the one that worked best at the end is not a form of dominion I like.

The key all through here is that, though I have a particular undo preference (grant no-info undos always, grant obvious misclicks outside tournament play to taste), what is much more important to me is that a player be consistent, and that both players be playing on the same system in any one game. Because of that, I think a few set positions (for instance, never allow, always allow no-info undos but never anything else, always allow no-info undos and ask on anything else) should be allowed for specification in match-searching, so that there is less misunderstanding and conflict.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:23:59 am by cascadestyler »
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"You can't help people being right for the wrong reasons...This fear of finding oneself in bad company is not an expression of political purity; it is an expression of a lack of self-confidence."

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BaumDZ

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2018, 01:10:56 pm »
+1

Today I played a game against [unnamed opponent] who was playing a herald strategy and also had an ambassador...

Long story short they kept playing herald, ultimately forcing an ambassador from a hand that they did not want to give me any of the cards. They got pretty angry when I denied the undo request and called me annoying... but I felt that was a consequence of their engine (which they bought a curse to drive) and I laughed IRL because it ended up being a strategy with an apparent flaw. IDK if they thought that herald gave you a choice to play a revealed action but it definitely does not.

Anyway, I wanted to share this funny. I made them eventually resign when I had the $$ for a final province and they did not want to see the end :,(

I also did not get to have much of a convo because I play on my phone and the messaging with my phone is poor... I really need to buy a desk top.

For clarification, a "no-info" undo would be like switching +action with a +buy choice? I am fine with those but not wjen someone draws (unless they knew the top card already), etc
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Rabid

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2018, 02:02:56 pm »
+1

The interface for ambassador can be confusing.
If you only have one card in hand it auto selects it.
So you then click on it and return, when what you mean to do is reveal, but not return.

You are only forced to reveal a card with amb, the return bit is optional.
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BaumDZ

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2018, 05:44:35 pm »
+1

It was not that part that they were trying to undo, I dont think. It was the accidental playing of the ambassador due to playing herald.

The interface for ambassador can be confusing.
If you only have one card in hand it auto selects it.
So you then click on it and return, when what you mean to do is reveal, but not return.

You are only forced to reveal a card with amb, the return bit is optional.
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