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Author Topic: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online  (Read 2884 times)

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Screwyioux

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To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« on: April 27, 2018, 06:52:13 pm »
+15

I've had a hunch for a while, one more about people than Dominion, but now I have some numbers suggesting it too, and those are 100% Dominion.

See, I have a blanket policy of blacklisting anyone who denies one of my undo steps for any reason. Granted, I don't request dubious ones (yes, subjective, I know-- not the point of this post), but as you can imagine, I have a decently long blacklist at this point.

I recently searched the Scavenger Leaderboard to compare it with my blacklist and not a single one of them is in the top 1000 players.

I play a LOT of games, against players of all skill levels, and it's easy to notice that skilled players tend not to deny undos very often. Do I have confirmation bias? Sure.

But referencing my blacklist against the leaderboard with zero overlap is also pretty convincing that denying your opponent an undo step betrays a lack of confidence in your play. That lack of confidence in turn suggests a deficit of skill, but that's to be expected if you create negative play experiences for yourself and your opponent.

So if you're one of these people, holding yourselves back with a toxic attitude toward the game and your fellow players, I want to challenge you to reconsider. Next time you're thinking about pressing "deny," think twice. Grant the step and see how much better your games get, and how much better you get as a player.
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teamlyle

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2018, 08:03:51 pm »
+2

Thank you! Someone needed to make this post.

I can sort of understand why some people don't like granting undos, but I personally think that having fun and seeing who's the better Dominion player (or who's more lucky) should take priority over winning, especially winning over a misclick.

Actually, I have 2 people on my blacklist (I know it would be bad to say their names in public) who both denied my undo request after I accidentally played my Coppers when I wanted to buy Grand Market. Both are in the top 1000, and one is even near the very top, around place 20 or 30. I'm not rooting for anyone to fail, but please, tell me they didn't get so high up by preying on misclicks... :P
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2018, 08:05:47 pm »
+4

Is that the only reason you blacklist? I feel there are plenty of people who are skilled and do reasonable undo's, but are jerks. Of the 52 players I've blacklisted (I have a straight-from-deny-to-blacklist policy as well), 23 are in the top 1000, with a handful as high as 100-200. (Granted, I have recently set my match-me-against-minimum-player-rating to be the top 900-ish players, but that's beside the point.)

Anyways .. I've wondered if any players eventually get blacklisted by everyone except other commonly-blacklisted players, thus perpetuating their play styles. You'd think people would eventually "take the hint", but may not if they tend to only hang out with other jerks.

Or they may feel they lose because they allow too many undos, thus falling in a cycle.

Is there any sort of timeout to blacklist? It might not be a bad idea if, say, 12 months after user X blacklists user Y, they become un-blacklisted. Cus ya know, people can change.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2018, 08:51:42 pm »
+1

I also feel that friendly chat can be a great way to learn from your opponents, pick their brain, etc. "Why did you open x/y?", "Do you think Gardens could have caught up?", etc. But the people that are not friendly chatters miss out on this. I wonder how much this plays into their ranking. Of course everyone learns differently - maybe it doesn't matter.
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GendoIkari

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2018, 09:53:40 pm »
+5

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2018, 09:57:35 pm »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.

I'm not saying you should do it because it's human decency (even though I do also think that). I'm saying you should do it because not doing it cultivates an attitude that makes you a worse player.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2018, 11:57:30 pm »
+3

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.

If I deny an undo request, it's me saying that I care more about my rating than having a good game of Dominion, unless I believe that not misclicking is part of the skill in Dominion. It's not morally wrong, in my opinion, to have this mentality, but I prefer not to play with such people.
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Triumph44

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 01:03:57 am »
+3

Requesting an Undo can be more egregious than denying one - the other day I had a guy request an Undo 3 steps into my turn because he realized he put his Overlord on his Tavern Mat and wouldn't be able to get it off of there.  It took him several minutes to realize he had to undo 4 more steps, which he did one at a time, and he was not responding to any of my chats about speeding up the process.  I allowed him the Undos but immediately blacklisted him after the game.

I've seen this discussion a thousand times in different games communities and there's always going to be a tiny subset of people who don't believe in Undos for any reason; they were raised on Chess or Go or some game that frowns upon takebacks and that's final.  There's another small subset of people who won't do it because they believe it will make their opponent angry causing them to play worse. And there will be people who will abuse people's generosity and try to get Undos when they've learned new information.   

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2018, 02:01:29 am »
+1

I only ever match against 52+ which is like top 800 or something like that, and I've blacklisted 6 people for denying undos.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2018, 03:05:39 am »
+5

I'm fine undoing things when its a misclick or just a small mistake. but the time I do deny undos is when I feel like someone plays through a hand trying to 3 pile or something, realizes his draws didn't work and undos to the start of the turn so that I won't be able to end the game to his greedy attempt to end the game. I'm fine with people using undo, but if you attempt something risky and it doesn't work out and you want to back out of it. That is really the only time I would deny it since I don't think that is really fair.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 06:04:23 am »
+7

Start burning the Midnight oil and you'll find great Japanese players who are quite willing to deny undos. People who aren't good tend to not be on f.ds, and it's an f.ds exclusive policy to grant undos gratuitously. It's much less a lack of skill and confidence as much as it is a different culture on f.ds versus the rest of the world.
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faust

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 08:40:34 am »
+10

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 09:41:52 am »
0

Start burning the Midnight oil and you'll find great Japanese players who are quite willing to deny undos. People who aren't good tend to not be on f.ds, and it's an f.ds exclusive policy to grant undos gratuitously. It's much less a lack of skill and confidence as much as it is a different culture on f.ds versus the rest of the world.

Agreed, but that's why I also posted this on Reddit.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 09:44:15 am »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 01:47:10 pm »
+3

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.

I had a similar situation in a league match where based on the log, it looked like they wanted to undo a play of Hunting Party; after chatting clarified that wasn't what would be undone, I granted the request. It would be nice if we didn't have to chat just to figure that out though.

I started a new "Interface Issues" thread on the ShiT forums about this - http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2925.0
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 06:10:34 pm »
+3

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.

If I deny an undo request, it's me saying that I care more about my rating than having a good game of Dominion, unless I believe that not misclicking is part of the skill in Dominion. It's not morally wrong, in my opinion, to have this mentality, but I prefer not to play with such people.


Yep, this.  I'm theoretically there to at least have some fun/enjoyment.  I don't enjoy a game where my opponent misclicks or makes an obvious error, and I win due to that.  I'll even point out obvious mistakes before going on with my turn (Most common one: player opens with a Debt card using auto-buy, forgets to play Coppers to pay off debt.)

A tournament or league might be a different situation, but even there a misclick that doesn't reveal any new info is just not worth not allowing.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 06:28:56 pm »
0

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2018, 06:39:37 pm »
+2

I do occasionally suggest undos for my opponent after they make a move that's obviously not going to do what they hope it will. For instance, recently someone got Lost arts on Envoy, then Inheritance on it. I let them know, your Estates aren't going to get +1 Action. They took me up on my offer of undo and inherited Lighthouses instead.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2018, 06:44:41 pm »
+4

I feel the original point of this thread was to possibly explain the correlation between people who blindly disallow undo requests & people who are not skilled, but has since evolved into a discussion about when undos are and are not warranted. Which are completely different discussions.
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 10:46:25 pm »
+1

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 10:48:20 pm by Screwyioux »
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2018, 10:47:19 pm »
0

I feel the original point of this thread was to possibly explain the correlation between people who blindly disallow undo requests & people who are not skilled, but has since evolved into a discussion about when undos are and are not warranted. Which are completely different discussions.

Correct, I figured it would (it's the internet after, all), but it's good to point out the sidetracking happening all the same.
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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2018, 11:06:56 pm »
+10

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.

Abetting other players' cheating by deciding not to care isn't exactly a healthy attitude. It encourages such players to keep asking for malicious undos. This has a detrimental effect on everyone who plays those players in the future.

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2018, 12:51:30 pm »
+5

I donít get this at all personally. I would see allowing an undo as being very gracious and sportsman-like, but to a degree above what I think should be minimally expected of people. I think someone is fully within their rights to deny an undo, and that such an act is not poor sportsmanship or rude; it is simply a lack of excessively good sportsmanship.
Well, not that I expect other people to grant undos, but then I don't want to play with them.

On the subject: Sometimes things might just be misunderstandings. I just played someone who played an Avanto and requested undo afterwards. I denied, thinking they wanted to not play Avanto once he drew a hand of no Saunas, but they clarified that they just mistakenly clicked "End Actions" (which I don't think there is a way for me to realize?), so then I gave them the undo. Without the talking it might have been a case where both think the other was being a jerk.


But see that's exactly what I'm talking about. It is not your job or responsibility to police other players and decide which undos they do and don't deserve. Just grant it. If they're requesting one to give them an unfair advantage, that's on them. Is it your privilege to deny? Sure, but it's also a bad attitude and that's what I want to see change in this community.
What? So your suggestion is that if someone undoes every Wishing Well wish to guess the right card, it would be bad attitude for me to deny that?

Yeah, basically. The issue here isn't what he was doing, it's that you're worrying about why he's asking for it in the first place. If you have a healthy attitude about the game, a productive one toward cultivating skill and personal growth, then you understand it's just not your place to differentiate. Let him worry about why he wants the undo and what that means for the game. You focus on you.

Abetting other players' cheating by deciding not to care isn't exactly a healthy attitude. It encourages such players to keep asking for malicious undos. This has a detrimental effect on everyone who plays those players in the future.

And if the point is to make things more fun, letting an opponent undo a misclick or mistake from rules confusion can do that, but letting your opponent cheat probably won't.

My philosophy is, give them the undo if it's something you'd give them in a casual real-life game. In my IRL games, doing something like playing a card and then saying, "No, wait, I don't want to do that" happens all the time.
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teamlyle

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2018, 10:48:18 pm »
+5

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?
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Screwyioux

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Re: To Those Who Deny Undo Steps Online
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2018, 08:53:10 am »
0

I make it a policy to not ask for any undo that I wouldn't grant.

I've never actually played against those people who play Wishing Well and then ask for undo when they don't get what they wished for, are they really that common?

I don't think I've ever seen it, but maybe people do things like that and I just don't notice?
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