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joekinguyr

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Dominion: Trade
« on: April 18, 2018, 05:53:49 am »
+1

A fanset, revolving around a communal trade mat.
Without further ado, the cards.

Canal
Action $3
+$2
Put a card from your hand onto the Trade mat.
-
While this in play, when you gain a card from the supply, you may gain a card costing less than it from the Trade mat.

Chartalan
Action-Attack $4
+1 Action
Put a Curse from the supply onto the Trade mat.

Each other player may gain a Curse from the trade mat. (Your choice) If any player didn't, they discard down to 4 cards in hand.

Forgery
Action $4
Choose an action card on the trade mat. This is that card until it leaves play.
-
Setup: Put 7 non-supply action cards costing up to $4 on the Trade mat.

That's all for now. Mockups to come.
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sprocket science

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Re: Dominion: Trade
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 08:43:58 am »
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The basic idea of a trade mat seems interesting, but I am not sure how it fits into Dominion. Trade implies an exchange between players, ideally for mutual benefit. That implies that the utility of different cards is different for different players. That may be true if the players are following completely different strategies, but then the question would be why you bought the card you don't want now in the first place. I can only see edge cases, like one player trashing down their starting coppers, and another player with a counting house or gardens strategy wanting them. But even then, the question is why I would want to give my coppers to my opponent who wants them rather than trashing them - I gain nothing from this.

Besides, none of the cards actually facilitate a trade in that sense.

Canal basically trashes a card, and can gain cards from the trash - just that it is using its own special trash.

Charlatan I do not fully understand. In a multiplayer game, do I load up the curses one by one, and then fire them at some point? Or can I use this so that only the player on my left hand side always gets cursed? That is actually problematic, see the advice on attacks that target only a specific player. Does the 'your choice' imply that you can even pick which player gets the single curse? Ouch, I don't think that will work well.

Forgery is interesting, though it seems a bit like Necromancer and the Zombies. How does this interact with Canal? If both are in the kingdom, I might buy Canal just to take these actions for myself, if they are any good - potentially leaving Forgery with nothing to do. Is that intentional?
 

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Screwyioux

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Re: Dominion: Trade
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2018, 08:56:06 am »
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Side note: You'll notice a running theme that every card with the word "trade" in it involves Silver (with the exception of Horse Traders).
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Trade
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2018, 09:08:24 am »
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So I've seen this communal mat idea come up a few times before and I don't think I've ever really seen a design that couldn't just work by using the trash. Let's look at a couple of official cards that interact with the trash, Forager and Lurker. Forager could be a trade mat card "put a treasure from your hand onto the trade mat. +$1 per differently named treasure on the trade mat." and Lurker "put an action from the supply onto the trade mat, or gain an action from the trade mat." the only real functional difference is how the cards interact with other cards, Dominion is all about how the cards interact with each other so I don't really see how cutting these cards off from all the interactions with old cards really adds anything.

Lets have a look at your cards...

Canal: I think this is prime example of what I'm trying to get at. This card basically reads "Trash a card from your hand. While this is in play, when you gain a card from the supply you may gain a cheaper card from the trash." The thing with this one is that the bottom part wants desirable cards to get onto the trade mat, but the top part will just be used to clear out Estates and Coppers, so this relies on other trade mat cards to have full functionality. It might work okay in trade mat heavy games (looking at the other 2 trade mat cards it unfortunately doesn't) but if it's the only trade mat card it doesn't work, if it used the trash instead it can still work with all the trade mat cards (assuming they're changed to use the trash too) and all of a sudden it will interact nicely with at least 1 card from every expansion as well so the below the line part will actually be relevant a decent amount of the time.

Balance and power-level wise I think this is clearly a little too good at $3. I think this compares favourably to Moneylender and Sacrifice even ignoring the when in-play part of the card. I'd like to see this at $4 at least, although I think it needs a built in way to get nice things into the trash/mat.

Charlatan: I don't really understand the thought behind this one... I think Canal has a lot of problems at the moment, but I can at least see the thought behind it and what you were going for (I actually think a Haggler from the trash could be a great card if it's done right), this I just can't see what you were thinking. My best guess is in games with this and Canal then Canal can put Curses onto the mat for this to give out after the Curse pile empties? Why not just make a card that can give out Curses from the trash?

Witch is a really strong attack, Urchin is weak-negligible, so you're going to give out the Curse at every opportunity making the whole trade mat part of the card quite baffling. In a 2 player game saving the Curse on the mat is basically just giving your opponent a chance to give out the curse, because this can only ever add 1 and remove 1 Curse from the mat. In a 3+ player game this just doesn't work, it gives out the Curse to the player to your left and everyone else just has to discard. Non-symmetrical attacks are a pretty big no-go in Dominion, especially when they're this unbalanced. You can save the Curse up so you can play a 2nd Charlatan to give out 1 Curse to each opponent I guess? That's the only time I can see you not just giving the Curse out straight away. As well as all this the card is also overpowered, +1 Action with a Curse attack is too good at $4 and this also continues to attack once the Curses run out.

Forgery: Okay, this one I can see not wanting to interact with the trash, then it basically becomes Necromancer, but then why does it interact with the other trade mat cards? There are only 2 other trade mat cards to look at right now, but Charlatan has no interaction with this and Canal just snipes all of the cards this puts on the mat and makes this quickly become useless (and the game probably revolves around who hits $5 with Canal first to take the best card off the mat for free). I think it's very hard to find an effect that couldn't work with the trash but shouldn't just be its own thing.

This one is also very overpowered, compare to Band of Misfits. Band will usually have fewer than 7 cards to choose from, it uses cards in the supply so it can't provide exclusive effects like this can and it can't play a card if the supply pile empties. It also costs $5, because you have to pay a premium for this kind of versatility.
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Trade
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2018, 01:25:58 pm »
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So I've seen this communal mat idea come up a few times before and I don't think I've ever really seen a design that couldn't just work by using the trash.
This. Unless there are cards that gain or play from the trash, i.e. Lurker, Rogue or Necromancer, the Trade mat could just as well be the trash.
There are some slight differences though. A version of Canal that interacts with the trash becomes bit stronger in the presence of trash for benefit and Charlatan wouldn't work as the junking pool became infinite. But as already pointed out, Charlatan is a dubious design as the attack is political in multiplayer games.

Forgery is actually a cool idea, a kind of Band of Misfits that interacts with an open Black Market deck. So price it at $5 and reduce the number of $4s to something around 2-4. Even then it might be superior to BoM.
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humcalc216

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Re: Dominion: Trade
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2018, 10:42:49 pm »
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Balance and power-level wise I think this is clearly a little too good at $3. I think this compares favourably to Moneylender and Sacrifice even ignoring the when in-play part of the card. I'd like to see this at $4 at least, although I think it needs a built in way to get nice things into the trash/mat.

I think Canal (with Trash interaction) might be fine at $4.  In the absence of other trashing, there are at least Estates in the trash to fish out in the endgame.  The weirdest thing this would let you do is recur Haunted Mirror and Magic Lamp.
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