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Author Topic: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction  (Read 910 times)

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SSLY

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Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« on: April 12, 2018, 09:07:27 am »
+5

Online when you play a Caravan Guard against an Attack in other player's turn and call a Coin of the Realm on the play, the CotR isn't discarded from play until the Clean-up of your next turn. Should it be discarded in the Clean-up of the opponent's turn? It doesn't replay the CG, so it has no reason to remain in play like you call it on a Duration in your turn.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2018, 09:34:26 am »
0

Online is correct.

In the cleanup phase, you only discard your own cards (you being the player whose turn it is).


From the base game rulebook (second edition):
Quote
Take all of the cards you have in play (both Actions and Treasures), and any remaining cards in your hand, and put them all into your discard pile.

The other player(s) do not do anything during your cleanup phase.

*Edit* Updating so that people don't see the wrong answer and not read the rest of the thread. The Adventures rulebook states that Reserve cards are discarded the turn that they are called.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 11:57:17 am by GendoIkari »
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SSLY

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 09:47:03 am »
+3

But we know an example a card which was discarded from play in other player's turn. 1st edition Outpost was discarded from my play area in the left player's turn when it failed to get its extra turn. I don't think there is difference.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 09:49:11 am by SSLY »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 10:04:30 am »
0

But we know an example a card which was discarded from play in other player's turn. 1st edition Outpost was discarded from my play area in the left player's turn when it failed to get its extra turn. I don't think there is difference.

That is due to special rules for Duration cards.

From the (I think first edition) Seaside rules:

Quote
Players do not discard Duration cards in Clean-up if they have something left to do; they stay in play
until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something.

So Durations have special rules that cause them to be discarded outside of the rules for Clean-up phase that make you discard cards. It so happens that they still get discarded during Clean-up, but Outpost in that case is discarded due to the Duration rule telling it to be discarded, not the Clean-up rule.
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SSLY

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 10:39:45 am »
0

yea I admit that it is just a special case within the aditional rule.

One reason I wonder is on a citation from FAQ of the Adventure rulebook, p. 7:
Quote
It [CotR] is discarded that turn with your other cards in play.
I don't think it covers in scope such thing as the CotR is called other than my turn, but "that turn" could literally mean such way (the turn in which the CotR is called). Anyway, edge cases could have something weird that we couldn't be expecting. I hope the designer judge my guess.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 10:41:03 am by SSLY »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 12:03:08 pm »
0

I don't know/remember how this should work. I'm sure Donald X. will weigh in when he gets the chance.
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crj

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2018, 06:08:02 pm »
0

Hmm. Is this informed at all by the corner case of Sacred Grove on the River's Gift?

Actually, now I think about it, Sacred Grove + River's Gift is a bit peculiar in a lot of ways. I'm guessing players have to choose whether or not they are going to receive the Boon when Sacred Grove gets played, but then each player's choice must be remembered until clean-up?

Then, "(Keep this until Clean-up)" is part of the main on-Receive text, not below a line. So... um... every player who chooses to receive the Boon must keep the card? I sense a custody battle.

But, more pertinently, The River's Gift is presumably discarded at the end of the current player's turn, not retained until Clean-up of the last player who chose to receive it. That would tend to suggest that on-Clean-up effects happen the next time any player cleans up?

(Or maybe the person who played Sacred Grove keeps The River's Gift, and everyone else Loses Track of it. But the Lose Track rule applies to Cards, and The River's Gift isn't a Card...)
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Donald X.

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2018, 07:20:53 pm »
+1

Online when you play a Caravan Guard against an Attack in other player's turn and call a Coin of the Realm on the play, the CotR isn't discarded from play until the Clean-up of your next turn. Should it be discarded in the Clean-up of the opponent's turn? It doesn't replay the CG, so it has no reason to remain in play like you call it on a Duration in your turn.
The intention was that all cards were discarded in the clean-up of the last turn in which they did anything - whoever's clean-up. That doesn't matter though, if contradicted by the rulebooks. I know it means more if I read the rulebook for you, but I don't have the time. Go by the newest rulebooks, not the old ones. If a bit doesn't talk about it, or appears to make a blanket statement that couldn't work, well that's a basic problem of communicating the rules for a game with rules on cards - no blanket statements work, and yet you need blanket statements to communicate with the players who aren't poking at the rules.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2018, 10:00:43 am »
0

Online when you play a Caravan Guard against an Attack in other player's turn and call a Coin of the Realm on the play, the CotR isn't discarded from play until the Clean-up of your next turn. Should it be discarded in the Clean-up of the opponent's turn? It doesn't replay the CG, so it has no reason to remain in play like you call it on a Duration in your turn.
The intention was that all cards were discarded in the clean-up of the last turn in which they did anything - whoever's clean-up. That doesn't matter though, if contradicted by the rulebooks. I know it means more if I read the rulebook for you, but I don't have the time. Go by the newest rulebooks, not the old ones. If a bit doesn't talk about it, or appears to make a blanket statement that couldn't work, well that's a basic problem of communicating the rules for a game with rules on cards - no blanket statements work, and yet you need blanket statements to communicate with the players who aren't poking at the rules.

I believe in this case, the Coin of the Realm FAQ in the rulebook can be read as contradicting the regular second edition rulebook.

From the section on Clean-Up phase in the base rulebook, second edition, it is clear that only the current player's cards are discarded during Clean-Up. (Because the only instructions given are for the current player to discard their in play cards). But Coin of the Realm FAQ says that it will be discarded at the end of the turn that it is called.

In this case, it sounds to me like Coin of the Realm FAQ isn't giving a rule or instruction, but rather explaining how it will work, in the general case. (It's says "it is discarded", not "discard it"). As far as I know, the FAQ is never intended to override any rules; only to clarify them.. is that right?
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dz

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2018, 10:26:37 am »
0


From the section on Clean-Up phase in the base rulebook, second edition, it is clear that only the current player's cards are discarded during Clean-Up. (Because the only instructions given are for the current player to discard their in play cards). But Coin of the Realm FAQ says that it will be discarded at the end of the turn that it is called.

In this case, it sounds to me like Coin of the Realm FAQ isn't giving a rule or instruction, but rather explaining how it will work, in the general case. (It's says "it is discarded", not "discard it"). As far as I know, the FAQ is never intended to override any rules; only to clarify them.. is that right?
[/quote]

Well to be fair to the rulebook, it has to sacrifice exactness in exchange for being understandable for newcomers. It's simpler to say "during clean-up, discard all cards you have in play" rather than "during clean-up, check each card in play to see if it's the last turn it did something, discarding them from play."

And yes, I'm sure the FAQ is supposed to be clarifying rules. It's called a FAQ for a reason!
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chipperMDW

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2018, 11:02:54 am »
+1

It's simpler to say "during clean-up, discard all cards you have in play" rather than "during clean-up, check each card in play to see if it's the last turn it did something, discarding them from play."

To clarify, that bit ("last turn it did something") applies only to durations. Possession does stuff past the current turn, but gets discarded on the turn it was played; the Possession FAQ is explicit that this happens, and that it happens because it's not a duration:
Quote from: Alchemy Rulebook
Unlike Outpost, Possession is not a Duration card. It is discarded in the Cleanup phase of the turn you played it.
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SSLY

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2018, 11:37:27 am »
+1

The intention was that all cards were discarded in the clean-up of the last turn in which they did anything - whoever's clean-up.
First, thanks for the answer. Whoever's. I see.

I missed yesterday that Duplicate could be more often called in other players' turns. I notice its FAQ from the Adventure 2nd rulebook p. 7, as well as 1st, explicitly refers:
Quote
Duplicate can be called during other players' turns when you gain cards; [...] Duplicate is discarded during the Clean-up of the turn you call it, whether or not it is your turn.
while it isn't implemented online either. Well, I hope this help the discussion and will be happy to see how it goes.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2018, 11:45:20 am »
+1

The intention was that all cards were discarded in the clean-up of the last turn in which they did anything - whoever's clean-up.
First, thanks for the answer. Whoever's. I see.

I missed yesterday that Duplicate could be more often called in other players' turns. I notice its FAQ from the Adventure 2nd rulebook p. 7, as well as 1st, explicitly refers:
Quote
Duplicate can be called during other players' turns when you gain cards; [...] Duplicate is discarded during the Clean-up of the turn you call it, whether or not it is your turn.
while it isn't implemented online either. Well, I hope this help the discussion and will be happy to see how it goes.

Ah, the Adventures rulebook also has a rule that says that Reserve cards are discarded on the turn they are called: "Reserve cards are discarded during Clean-up normally on the turn they are called.", page 3. Don't know if that's first or second edition.

So similar to the Duration rule in the Seaside rulebook; it looks like Reserve cards are special. Which makes sense, I think only Reserve cards and Duration cards (and Throne Room things that play Duration cards) can ever end up in play on other player's turns.

So we have consistent rules actually... the base rulebook says that you only clean up your own cards in Clean-Up phase, but later rulebooks add special rules for Durations and Reserves.

So the online implementation is in fact wrong.
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crj

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2018, 06:02:26 pm »
+1

I think only Reserve cards and Duration cards (and Throne Room things that play Duration cards) can ever end up in play on other player's turns.
Currently, I think that's right.

But it sounds like the kind of observation that's not inherent to the game and might easily be violated by some future card. After all, it's the Reaction aspect of Caravan Guard which means you can play it on another player's turn; it's just a coincidence that it's also a Duration.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2018, 06:06:00 pm »
0

I think only Reserve cards and Duration cards (and Throne Room things that play Duration cards) can ever end up in play on other player's turns.
Currently, I think that's right.

But it sounds like the kind of observation that's not inherent to the game and might easily be violated by some future card. After all, it's the Reaction aspect of Caravan Guard which means you can play it on another player's turn; it's just a coincidence that it's also a Duration.

True. Given Donald's previous comment, I would expect a future rulebook (if there were ever a third edition) to update the Clean-Up phase to simply say "all cards in play". It should be possible to word it such a way that it doesn't have to call out other players; to avoid the confusion of someone reading the rules and wondering how it could be possible to have a card in play on another player's turn.
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Jeebus

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2018, 07:07:42 pm »
0

Yes, there is no reason to think that Reserve cards have special rules about discarding them. The Adventures rulebook just clarifies something that was not necessary earlier, which is that in Clean-up all cards in play are discarded. (Durations being exceptions of course.)

It's weird that this is wrong online. With Duplicate it absolutely matters, and it's spelled out in the rulebook.

GendoIkari

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 11:47:49 am »
+2

Yes, there is no reason to think that Reserve cards have special rules about discarding them. The Adventures rulebook just clarifies something that was not necessary earlier, which is that in Clean-up all cards in play are discarded. (Durations being exceptions of course.)


No, this is incorrect... it sounds like that was Donald's intention, but it is not the way the rules (Base and Adventures) are written. The Base game rules say that you only discard your own cards during your cleanup, (by not giving any instructions to any player other than the player taking their turn), and the Adventure rules state that Reserves are discarded the turn they are called; just like how the Seaside rules state that Durations have special discard timing.
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Jeebus

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2018, 03:06:11 pm »
0

No, this is incorrect... it sounds like that was Donald's intention, but it is not the way the rules (Base and Adventures) are written. The Base game rules say that you only discard your own cards during your cleanup, (by not giving any instructions to any player other than the player taking their turn), and the Adventure rules state that Reserves are discarded the turn they are called; just like how the Seaside rules state that Durations have special discard timing.

Yes, the base game rules do tell you to discard "your cards". This is the kind of blanket, non-specific statement that Donald talked about. Having the base game rules specify that all players' cards get discarded would be confusing.

You're right that nowhere does a rulebook explicitly state this as a general rule. The Adventures rules only mention Reserve cards. But this is far from the first time a general rule is inferred from a specific card interaction.

Donald has used this rule as a basis when ruling about 1st-edition Outpost being discarded in another player's turn. That was the first time we learned that all players' cards get discarded in your Clean-up. Here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12051.msg440924#msg440924
"The original intention was for cards to be discarded the last turn they did something, even when it wasn't your turn [...]. The rules assume the card will go away on your turn but it's normal for the main body of the rules to focus on normal cases rather than exceptions."

Based on this I always thought that this was a general rule, and was not surprised when it was specified (since it was then relevant) in Adventures.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:31:14 pm by Jeebus »
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Discard Coin of the Realm called on Caravan Guard reaction
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2018, 06:33:33 am »
0

Ah, the Adventures rulebook also has a rule that says that Reserve cards are discarded on the turn they are called: "Reserve cards are discarded during Clean-up normally on the turn they are called.", page 3. Don't know if that's first or second edition.

This sentence wasn't translated properly to Dutch, which I discovered when encountering Duplicate/Messenger (both of which are in Adventures).
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