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Author Topic: Crystal  (Read 250 times)

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spiralstaircase

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Crystal
« on: April 03, 2018, 09:21:58 am »
+2



Quote
Crystal
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
+1 Buy
You may turn a complete set of face-up Copper, Silver and Gold cards face down for the turn, for $6.

I wanted to do something that used the turn-face-down mechanic from Nocturne.  Does this work, do you think?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 09:38:56 am by spiralstaircase »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 09:34:35 am »
+1

I think it sounds too powerful. The effect is pretty easy to pull off in a decent engine; at least once or twice (per turn). And when it works, you get the $12 for 4 cards.. basically turning a Copper, a Silver, and Crystal all into Golds. With a +buy on top.

I feel like it should possibly cost to match Bank. You aren't going to want more than 2 of these anyway, and you don't want it very early anyway, so the higher cost isn't as much of a downside as it would be for a card like King's Court.
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trivialknot

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 01:57:40 pm »
0

Turning copper-silver-gold into triple-gold doesn't look too strong to me.  If you're drawing deck, you can also pull off T-map or Windfall, and get golds that way, and that's not considered too powerful.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2018, 02:11:26 pm »
0

Turning copper-silver-gold into triple-gold doesn't look too strong to me.  If you're drawing deck, you can also pull off T-map or Windfall, and get golds that way, and that's not considered too powerful.

Treasure Map and Windfall add Golds to your deck; this just produces money, so not sure they're comparable. Activating Treasure Map or Windfall isn't something you do every turn, nor would you want to.
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trivialknot

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2018, 03:22:23 pm »
+1

Turning copper-silver-gold into triple-gold doesn't look too strong to me.  If you're drawing deck, you can also pull off T-map or Windfall, and get golds that way, and that's not considered too powerful.

Treasure Map and Windfall add Golds to your deck; this just produces money, so not sure they're comparable. Activating Treasure Map or Windfall isn't something you do every turn, nor would you want to.
Right the mechanics are different, but T-Map, Windfall, and Crystal all fill the role of "ways to quickly increase payload when you're drawing your deck and can handle lots of non-terminal stop cards".  It's not obvious to me that buying two $4-costs and having them collide once is significantly harder than buying a $6-cost and $5-cost, and then having them collide with silver and copper every single turn.

Anyways, I feel like the cost of Crystal hardly matters, since most of the cost is in supporting it.  It could cost $2, and you still wouldn't spam it.
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Aquila

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2018, 03:29:24 pm »
+3

This confused me at first, it doesn't actually say where the set of Treasures is to be. If you do mean your play area, I think when you have cards in play face down, they no longer count as 'in play'. There are certain rules questions that arise then, like what happens to the face down set at Clean-up? It's still your turn.

You could turn the set over in the Supply or of course the trash safely, but neither would be as interesting here. You could try turning the set in play sideways or something?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2018, 03:45:22 pm »
+2

This confused me at first, it doesn't actually say where the set of Treasures is to be. If you do mean your play area, I think when you have cards in play face down, they no longer count as 'in play'. There are certain rules questions that arise then, like what happens to the face down set at Clean-up? It's still your turn.

You could turn the set over in the Supply or of course the trash safely, but neither would be as interesting here. You could try turning the set in play sideways or something?

I'm almost sure he meant cards already in play, but I agree that it needs to be specified on the card, like how Necromancer specifies "from the trash".

However, there's no reason that a face-down card would no longer count as in play. A face-down card in the trash still counts as being in the trash (Donald confirmed that you could get a face-down card back with Lurker/Graverobber/Rogue).

I also realize that there's no real reason to use "face down" for this. You could just as easily say "you may play a Copper, a Silver, and a Gold from your hand. If you do, +. " Or, you could require them to discard those cards from play instead of turning them face down, which would be the same for most situations.

To avoid the beginners question of "do the other treasures still give you their regular money?", you could just make them reveal then discard a Copper, Silver, and a Gold, and give +$12.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 03:49:01 pm by GendoIkari »
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Holunder9

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2018, 04:25:20 pm »
0

Basically turning a Copper, a Silver, and Crystal all into Golds. With a +buy on top
I think this is a good way to read the card: turning two cards you normally would not want in an engine into Golds.

The comparisons with Treasure Map are apt: Treasure Map also yields 4 Golds which is more versatile (non-engines) but also more costly in terms of set-up and so on (the collision risk exists in both cases).

Crstal doesn't look overpowered to me at the first glance; it is worse than Pouch unless you actually draw the 3 other cards. If you got an deck-drawing engine this is good payload but on the path towards that a deck-drawing engine you also need some payload so timing the right moment of buying Crystal will be tricky.
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King Leon

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018, 03:22:40 pm »
0



Quote
Crystal
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
+1 Buy
You may turn a complete set of face-up Copper, Silver and Gold cards face down for the turn, for $6.

I wanted to do something that used the turn-face-down mechanic from Nocturne.  Does this work, do you think?

This card is missing some clarification. So you can just turn the top card of the supply piles face down?
If you mean cards in play, then that is a horribly weak variant of Bank, Merchant and Fool’s Gold.

Bank would give you at least $4 if you have any three treasure cards in play before and even stacks, Merchant is a cantrip if you have no Silver in play (and again, you only need one Copper, even if you play 10 Merchants) and Fool’s Gold only requires one specific Treasure in play and even has a consolation price and also can turn into Gold, if you lose the FG split. Crystal is rather weak, even if it would cost $1. (Edit: Okay, the +Buy pushes it into the same level as Pawn, so $2 is the correct price.)

My idea:
Quote
Crystal
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
+1 Buy
When you play this, it is worth $1 for each different-named Treasure card you have in play. (Counting this)

This is now a Bank “light” with +Buy (which does not combo with Venture and Counting House).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 03:32:07 pm by King Leon »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 03:45:15 pm »
0


Quote
Crystal
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
+1 Buy
You may turn a complete set of face-up Copper, Silver and Gold cards face down for the turn, for $6.

I wanted to do something that used the turn-face-down mechanic from Nocturne.  Does this work, do you think?

This card is missing some clarification. So you can just turn the top card of the supply piles face down?
If you mean cards in play, then that is a horribly weak variant of Bank, Merchant and Fool’s Gold.

Bank would give you at least $4 if you have any three treasure cards in play before and even stacks, Merchant is a cantrip if you have no Silver in play (and again, you only need one Copper, even if you play 10 Merchants) and Fool’s Gold only requires one specific Treasure in play and even has a consolation price and also can turn into Gold, if you lose the FG split. Crystal is rather weak, even if it would cost $1. (Edit: Okay, the +Buy pushes it into the same level as Pawn, so $2 is the correct price.)

My idea:
Quote
Crystal
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
+1 Buy
When you play this, it is worth $1 for each different-named Treasure card you have in play. (Counting this)

This is now a Bank “light” with +Buy (which does not combo with Venture and Counting House).

While it's quite possible I overestimated it, I'm pretty sure that you're underestimating the . That's more than you get from Fool's Gold or most Banks; a card that gives + and a buy by itself would be hugely better than a card that gives +.
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Chappy7

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 04:42:29 pm »
0

What about something like this to buff it a little.

+1 Buy

You may turn over any number of treasures from play, only one of which may be Copper, that total at least $6, for $6
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GendoIkari

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 04:58:47 pm »
0

What about something like this to buff it a little.

+1 Buy

You may turn over any number of treasures from play, only one of which may be Copper, that total at least $6, for $6

That sounds like convoluted wording. I don't see a good reason to restrict it to only 1 Copper; it's not like you want to have a bunch of Coppers when you activate this anyway. And "total at least $6" isn't defined Dominion terminology. Intuitively, we can say that 1 Copper, 1 Silver, and 1 Gold "total $6", but in terms of actual mechanics, how much does a Bank add to this total? Or what about Crystal itself?
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Chappy7

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Re: Crystal
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2018, 05:10:23 pm »
0

What about something like this to buff it a little.

+1 Buy

You may turn over any number of treasures from play, only one of which may be Copper, that total at least $6, for $6

That sounds like convoluted wording. I don't see a good reason to restrict it to only 1 Copper; it's not like you want to have a bunch of Coppers when you activate this anyway. And "total at least $6" isn't defined Dominion terminology. Intuitively, we can say that 1 Copper, 1 Silver, and 1 Gold "total $6", but in terms of actual mechanics, how much does a Bank add to this total? Or what about Crystal itself?

The reason I suggested the copper thing was simply to keep the general feel of the card the same.  You have to buy some other treasures to make it work.  You're definitely right about the wording and the fact that some treasures have variable values.  I just feel like with it being so strict (Copper Silver Gold) it won't work.

What if it said "+1 Buy.  Turn over 4 non-Crystal treasure cards from play for $6"?
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