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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave  (Read 1023 times)

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Aleimon Thimble

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Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« on: April 03, 2018, 03:40:28 am »
+1



Yesterday I got destroyed in a game where I tried to build a Conclave engine. Clearly I was doing something wrong, so let's try to learn something about the card!

Conclave is a fairly exotic splitter, one that could have been in Cornucopia since it rewards variety. But it's here in Nocturne instead.

- Can you feasibly build an engine if Conclave is the only village/splitter?
- How many do you want with and without other villages, is it worth it to fight for the split?
- Are there any cards you can compare it to? Maybe some Throne Room variants?
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 04:02:43 am »
0

1) depends on the payload, the draw and the trashing
2) 2-3, 0-3, no
3) you can compare it to Imp
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 04:36:14 am »
0

How well does this play with Black Market?
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2018, 10:45:28 am »
+1

Conclave is more difficult to manage the more conclaves you have in your deck so it is an unlikely pile to run out. The big advantage of conclave is that you often want a buy a silver (say) for income and your first conclave offers that income but is also an asset to an engine.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2018, 03:07:26 pm »
+1

Conclave lets you eek out more terminal plays in general, but in particular with some vanilla cantrips you can scatter in for extra uniques. Its reasonable coin payload too, so youll buy it for that a lot of the time. Its rare that the split comes into play at all. Not a lot to say here - but it instead of Silver when appropriate and possible?
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2018, 03:30:50 pm »
+1

Be aware of the anti-synergy with Duration cards.

I don't think I've ever seen the split matter.
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trivialknot

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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2018, 03:48:06 pm »
+4

Games with Conclave as the only splitter are super neat.  Sometimes there's a particular terminal you want to play a lot of--say, Bridge--but the maximum number of times you can play it is equal to 2 plus the number of distinct non-terminal actions in the kingdom, and you can't do it very reliably.  And what if instead of Bridge, it was Bridge Troll, then you got yourself a Conclave/Duration nombo, what fun.

Other fun interactions:
Conclave/Guide, or Conclave/Ratcatcher.  You can get unlimited +action this way, but if you call reserve cards from your mat, it doesn't work that turn.
Conclave/Enchantress.  Great when your opponent has 2 identical terminals and a Conclave.
Conclave/draw-to-X.  Disappearing money is great with draw-to-X, but generally you want to play multiple copies of the draw-to-X card.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2018, 04:16:32 pm »
+4

Overlord makes Conclave a lot better; you can always play an Overlord with Conclave.  If there's also a draw-to-X card in the kingdom, all the better!
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2018, 05:48:57 pm »
0

I remember thinking this card was going to be a powerhouse for some reason. It seems really complex but really it's a pretty vanilla card that goes:

$2
(conditionally)+2 actions

Of course if the condition isn't met, it's a terminal silver. When the condition is met, you're looking at festival without the buy or a more restricted squire that gives you one more dollar. Really nothing to write home about, but it's a solid village in a kingdom that's loaded with different terminal draw cards in my opinion. I would compare it to festival more than any other card.
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O

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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2018, 05:58:04 pm »
+1

I remember thinking this card was going to be a powerhouse for some reason. It seems really complex but really it's a pretty vanilla card that goes:

$2
(conditionally)+2 actions

Of course if the condition isn't met, it's a terminal silver. When the condition is met, you're looking at festival without the buy or a more restricted squire that gives you one more dollar. Really nothing to write home about, but it's a solid village in a kingdom that's loaded with different terminal draw cards in my opinion. I would compare it to festival more than any other card.

This is a great example of why context-invariant comparisons aren't great.

When you need +actions, more often than not (but not always!) it's that festival/squire comparison.

When you don't need +actions, and once in awhile when you do need +actions, yes it is a terminal silver. But the negative connotation of "terminal" in the terminal silver here isn't applicable nearly as frequently as it is for a normal terminal silver.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2018, 06:51:33 pm »
0

yea this one's good
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2018, 09:55:01 pm »
0

- Are there any cards you can compare it to? Maybe some Throne Room variants?
How about Festival? Costs $1 more, gives +Buy, getting two actions is unconditional.

This has now got me thinking about edge cases: Conclave plays a card at once, before it's finished resolving. Is there some useful hack you can do with that? The best I can think of is using Conclave to play a Royal Carriage then immediately calling the Royal Carriage on the Conclave.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2018, 02:23:01 am »
0

- Are there any cards you can compare it to? Maybe some Throne Room variants?
How about Festival? Costs $1 more, gives +Buy, getting two actions is unconditional.

This has now got me thinking about edge cases: Conclave plays a card at once, before it's finished resolving. Is there some useful hack you can do with that? The best I can think of is using Conclave to play a Royal Carriage then immediately calling the Royal Carriage on the Conclave.
Kind of oddly, you can Throne Room the Conclave, use it to play two Royal Carriages, then call the RCs to play either the Conclave or the Throne Room another couple of times (but you can't play more RCs with the third or fourth play of the Conclave).

So Conclave + Reserve is a decent combination too. Something like Conclave + Wine Merchant/Distant Lands + Draw-to-X would be quite neat, if nothing else.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2018, 03:08:26 am »
+3

- Are there any cards you can compare it to? Maybe some Throne Room variants?
How about Festival? Costs $1 more, gives +Buy, getting two actions is unconditional.

This has now got me thinking about edge cases: Conclave plays a card at once, before it's finished resolving. Is there some useful hack you can do with that? The best I can think of is using Conclave to play a Royal Carriage then immediately calling the Royal Carriage on the Conclave.

Someone back during the previews mentioned Prince. If you Prince a Conclave, you get to, for example, play and call in the same turn those Reserve cards that can only be called at the beginning of your turn (Ratcatcher, Transmogrify, Teacher, etc).
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Aleimon Thimble

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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2018, 06:11:02 am »
+1

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Conclave

I wrote a short strategy overview for the Wiki. I will do the same for the other cards we discussed before opening new topics. In the meantime others may do so if they wish, of course. :)
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 07:10:44 am »
+2

- Are there any cards you can compare it to? Maybe some Throne Room variants?
How about Festival? Costs $1 more, gives +Buy, getting two actions is unconditional.

This has now got me thinking about edge cases: Conclave plays a card at once, before it's finished resolving. Is there some useful hack you can do with that? The best I can think of is using Conclave to play a Royal Carriage then immediately calling the Royal Carriage on the Conclave.

The comparison is natural, but I think its a bit misleading, because Conclave is way better than Festival. With Festival you essentially have to buy other sources of Coin to reach it, and then you have to skip other $5s repeatedly to stock up; its a lot easier to fit Conclave buys in.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2018, 07:29:38 am »
0

I think it's fair to compare cards with different costs (eg a Grand Market is a Conspirator with +buy which doesn't need activation) while still being able to say Conspirator is way better than Black Market in a kingdom rich in cantrips and poor in Quarries/Vaults/Remodels. One good thing about this comparison is that part of the cards it shines with can be taken from what we know about Festival; the other part being about "start-of-turn" rule shenanigans.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2018, 05:12:48 pm »
0

The comparison is natural, but I think its a bit misleading, because Conclave is way better than Festival.
That doesn't make the comparison unuseful. Indeed, it throws into stark relief that Conclave's $4 price point is one of its strongest aspects?
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2018, 05:27:43 pm »
0

That doesn't make the comparison unuseful. Indeed, it throws into stark relief that Conclave's $4 price point is one of its strongest aspects?

You don't learn that from the comparison, you already know that and then you just interpret the comparison in that light. There are very few things about knowing how to play Festival games that you can apply in Conclave games the more relevant comparisons are other Silver skippers such as Wishing Well, and Imp as I already mentioned.
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2018, 05:35:50 pm »
+1

That doesn't make the comparison unuseful. Indeed, it throws into stark relief that Conclave's $4 price point is one of its strongest aspects?

You don't learn that from the comparison, you already know that and then you just interpret the comparison in that light. There are very few things about knowing how to play Festival games that you can apply in Conclave games the more relevant comparisons are other Silver skippers such as Wishing Well, and Imp as I already mentioned.

Well, it's true that Conclave plays very differently from Festival. A hand of three Festivals and a Silver still buys a Province. A hand of 3 Conclaves and Silver buys, uh, another Conclave?
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Awaclus

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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2018, 05:47:30 pm »
0

Well, it's true that Conclave plays very differently from Festival. A hand of three Festivals and a Silver still buys a Province. A hand of 3 Conclaves and Silver buys, uh, another Conclave?

Well, that's true, but it's more just that costing $4 instead of $5 isn't just a difference in cost, it's a difference in effect as well. Festival gives you +$2 to your payload, Conclave gives you +$2 to your economy which is way different (and better). And then they suddenly don't have anything in common anymore, other than broad categorizations like anti-terminal.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 05:49:28 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Let's Discuss Nocturne Cards: Conclave
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2018, 06:27:51 pm »
0

Well, it's true that Conclave plays very differently from Festival. A hand of three Festivals and a Silver still buys a Province. A hand of 3 Conclaves and Silver buys, uh, another Conclave?

Well, that's true, but it's more just that costing $4 instead of $5 isn't just a difference in cost, it's a difference in effect as well. Festival gives you +$2 to your payload, Conclave gives you +$2 to your economy which is way different (and better). And then they suddenly don't have anything in common anymore, other than broad categorizations like anti-terminal.

Yeah, it's much more that it's a card with an effect you want for $4 anyway (the +$2) with a nice utility effect attached, but which gets more clunky in larger numbers.
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