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Author Topic: Terraforming Mars  (Read 1694 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2018, 06:54:46 pm »
+1

I assume all players were new? Playing draft, an experienced player should easily beat a newbie.

Four of us were new.  The person who owned the game and brought it, and had played it before a couple times, came in fourth.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2018, 08:37:42 am »
0

I won my first game of Terraforming Mars, against people who had played before. It wasn't draft variant, though.
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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2018, 07:07:16 am »
0

Short games can get away with way more randomness than long ones, not only because you can play multiple times to have luck evening out, but also because you spent less time being screwed from being unlucky once (or multiple times in succession).

There is an argument which goes the opposite way. Games with a lot of randomness need to be longer than others to have the signal dominate the noise. I could stand a chance against a strong Poker player over a game of two hands but would lose by a margin in a game over two hours.

If you play games with a lot of randomness for the lulz, then short games like Mitternachtsparty are better since a joke may get old quickly. If you play games with a high random component for skill, prepare for longer sessions.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2018, 08:05:37 am »
+1

I think it would help, when people are expressing their feelings about the game, for them to be explicit about whether they played with drafting or without -- we've played with drafting for so long that I had honestly forgotten that the default game doesn't include the draft.
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Watno

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2018, 08:48:12 am »
0

Short games can get away with way more randomness than long ones, not only because you can play multiple times to have luck evening out, but also because you spent less time being screwed from being unlucky once (or multiple times in succession).

There is an argument which goes the opposite way. Games with a lot of randomness need to be longer than others to have the signal dominate the noise. I could stand a chance against a strong Poker player over a game of two hands but would lose by a margin in a game over two hours.

Well, this only works if the long game time corresponds to a high number of random events, which isn't really the case for Terraforming Mars. Also, unlike Poker, the games I'm talking about often have massive snowball effects.

Regarding draft in Terraforming Mars: I played the first and most games with drafting and was quite opposed to plazying without it. However, after being convinced to try it, I realized that it has the benefit of making the game at least not take so incredibly long.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2018, 09:36:31 am »
0

Is draft an official way to play, listed in the rules? Or something players came up with?
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ipofanes

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2018, 10:16:42 am »
0

Draft is the official mode not for first time players. Like three ages in Through the Ages, or all buildings in Caverna, or picking factions in Terra Mystica.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2018, 10:36:17 am »
0

Draft is the official mode not for first time players. Like three ages in Through the Ages, or all buildings in Caverna, or picking factions in Terra Mystica.

Ah ok. Surprised then that the people I've played with have chosen not draft the 2 times I've played.
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pacovf

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2018, 11:23:06 am »
0

Itís an official variant that appears in the rulebook, but I donít think itís the official ďrecommendedĒ way to play, the way adding corporations and the advanced cards is.
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Holunder9

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2018, 04:38:39 pm »
0

Well, this only works if the long game time corresponds to a high number of random events, which isn't really the case for Terraforming Mars.
Let's do the maths: you get 10 cards in setup, 4 cards per generation which leads under the assumption of an average game length of 13 generations to an average amount of 58 cards you can invest into. If that is too small a number for you, the drafting variant increases that average number to 118.

As you often do not get the cards that match the starting cooperation you chose some players feel as if the game is more luck-dependent than it actually is.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2018, 07:11:51 pm »
+1

Well, this only works if the long game time corresponds to a high number of random events, which isn't really the case for Terraforming Mars.
Let's do the maths: you get 10 cards in setup, 4 cards per generation which leads under the assumption of an average game length of 13 generations to an average amount of 58 cards you can invest into. If that is too small a number for you, the drafting variant increases that average number to 118.

As you often do not get the cards that match the starting cooperation you chose some players feel as if the game is more luck-dependent than it actually is.

I don't think the total number of cards you see is nearly as relevant as when you see them.
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Holunder9

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2018, 07:52:16 pm »
0

Well, this only works if the long game time corresponds to a high number of random events, which isn't really the case for Terraforming Mars.
Let's do the maths: you get 10 cards in setup, 4 cards per generation which leads under the assumption of an average game length of 13 generations to an average amount of 58 cards you can invest into. If that is too small a number for you, the drafting variant increases that average number to 118.

As you often do not get the cards that match the starting cooperation you chose some players feel as if the game is more luck-dependent than it actually is.

I don't think the total number of cards you see is nearly as relevant as when you see them.
The law of large numbers disagrees with you. Dominion is partly so skill-dependent because you draw a larger amount of cards than in other deckbuilders and a far larger amount that in any tableaubuilder.
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pacovf

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2018, 08:01:28 pm »
+2

Well, this only works if the long game time corresponds to a high number of random events, which isn't really the case for Terraforming Mars.
Let's do the maths: you get 10 cards in setup, 4 cards per generation which leads under the assumption of an average game length of 13 generations to an average amount of 58 cards you can invest into. If that is too small a number for you, the drafting variant increases that average number to 118.

As you often do not get the cards that match the starting cooperation you chose some players feel as if the game is more luck-dependent than it actually is.

I don't think the total number of cards you see is nearly as relevant as when you see them.
The law of large numbers disagrees with you. Dominion is partly so skill-dependent because you draw a larger amount of cards than in other deckbuilders and a far larger amount that in any tableaubuilder.

TM snowballs hard, so when you get the good cards is definitely a big factor. Though I think the draft solves that, because you see a lot of cards before the first turn.
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Donald X.

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2018, 10:29:12 pm »
+1

The law of large numbers disagrees with you.
Speak for yourself, Holunder9! You're the one disagreeing. You aren't math, and it's not on your side.
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Holunder9

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2018, 04:21:38 am »
0

The law of large numbers disagrees with you.
Speak for yourself, Holunder9! You're the one disagreeing. You aren't math, and it's not on your side.
Ouch, failing at Statistics 101. If you throw one die the variance of the result is far larger than the variance of the sum of the result of a 100 dice. This is even more embarassing than pretending that keeping all cards in Terraforming Mars doesn't eliminate a core strategic element of the game.
Reminds me of the folks who have played Dominion a few times and claimed that the game is broken because of BM so you might want to increase your sample size of played games above 1.
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faust

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2018, 04:47:08 am »
+2

The law of large numbers disagrees with you.
Speak for yourself, Holunder9! You're the one disagreeing. You aren't math, and it's not on your side.
Ouch, failing at Statistics 101. If you throw one die the variance of the result is far larger than the variance of the sum of the result of a 100 dice. This is even more embarassing than pretending that keeping all cards in Terraforming Mars doesn't eliminate a core strategic element of the game.
Reminds me of the folks who have played Dominion a few times and claimed that the game is broken because of BM so you might want to increase your sample size of played games above 1.
You're such a nice person.

More to the point, it has been said that the reason there is a big luck factor is the snowballing effect. So the actual thing happening is more akin to rolling 100 dice and then taking the sum over 1/2^k * d(k), where d(k) is the result of the k-th die roll. This has a decently big variance.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2018, 11:58:23 am »
0

Well, my wife finally got to play a game with more than 2 players. We had 5 players. It was a huge shift in how the game plays out. We didn't have nearly as many cards on the table since 5 of us were all increasing the temperature, oxygen, and oceans. The snowballing effect was lessened with 5 players since the game ended sooner.

We didn't use the drafting rules since there was an utter newbie and one guy who wasn't entirely secure in his knowledge of the game. I wonder if we should've used it anyway. I worry that the draft variant really screws over the newbie since he doesn't know the power of some of the late-game cards or what is needed to deny victory from people down the row.

But fortunately, my wife's faith in the game was restored as she won this game. She beat me by 3 points. The newbie actually finished in a comfortable third. I think that I do better than her in building long-term engines, but the shorter game had different requirements that my wife was better able to navigate.

Now that she beat me, it's time to introduce her to a different game. *cackle*
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Donald X.

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2018, 12:23:29 pm »
+7

Ouch, failing at Statistics 101.
Theory, please check if this is a formerly banned poster.
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werothegreat

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2018, 12:59:08 pm »
+1

I get the intent of adding the strategic decision of what cards to keep - I just think it could be handled better.  Maybe have a handsize limit.  Or have you pay for each card left in your hand at the end of the turn.
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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2018, 04:08:16 pm »
0

Draft is the official mode not for first time players. Like three ages in Through the Ages, or all buildings in Caverna, or picking factions in Terra Mystica.

This is definitely not correct.

For first-time players, the official mode is using the "Generic" corporation and keeping all 10 cards without paying for them.

The draft variant is included but not automatically recommended in the rulebook.  However, it has become the de facto play method in many if not most groups, including most places where it's been used as a tournament.  It's uncommon to draft the starting 10 cards, however, because that adds a good half hour or so to the game, most likely, before you've even started playing.

I believe I was told that at WBC they drafted 5 and 5 for the first hand, which still seems pretty long.
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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2018, 04:10:44 pm »
0

Ouch, failing at Statistics 101.
Theory, please check if this is a formerly banned poster.


What Donald said.

If they're not, Holunder, we really don't like even oblique personal attacks here.  So stop doing it.
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pacovf

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Re: Terraforming Mars
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2018, 04:25:06 pm »
+1

Drafting the first 10 cards adds 5 mins if youíve played before, not 30, and IMHO itís necessary to make some corporations playable at all. Maybe add 10 mins if youíve got someone with serious AP playing, but I wouldnít blame that on the game...

Itís true that drafting adds probably half an hour to the total length of the game, but honestly I wouldnít play without that anymore that I would play Agricola without it. TM is a long-ish game, and thatís a very valid complaint, but itís not a game for everyone, and thatís fine. I personally find the decision/time ratio acceptable, and draft makes it less luck-dependant, which is good in a game this long.
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