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[gkrieg13]

hmm maybe efhw, space, and LL are all scum...

I have a hard time believing LaLight is town with his actions.

[SpaceAnemone]

@gkriek, you are totally mischaracterizing my objection to the Galz lynch: I was definitely not arguing he was town, but that I preferred not to push someone who I thought had a strong chance of flipping SK, and wanted to push a wagon that had a higher chance of not losing the game.

[EFHW]

It wasn't just a read at that point. There were numerous direct implications that GalzHydrad being town would imply. You ignored people when they asked you to state which of the few scenarios in which GalzHydrad!Town was possible was even remotely likely (the reality: none of them were remotely likely).

I didn't agree with a lot of gkrieg's reasoning. The game would not end if we mislynched. I didn't want to mislynch, but he kept asserting things that weren't strictly true. Like he is doing now, that scum would never double buss their roleblocker. Who knows what they would do. I'm not going to make that assumption. They may have given him up as a lost cause and been trying for towncred. It was not certain that scum know who the SK is, either. Possible, sure, and more likely now that we had no deaths last night, but not something I was going to assume Day 3.

You are saying I ignored questions. That is not my recollection. Can you point to those posts?

What were the implications of town!Galz/Hydrad that were so unlikely?

[EFHW]

hmm maybe efhw, space, and LL are all scum...

I have a hard time believing LaLight is town with his actions.

Since when? Where have you voiced any suspicion so far? What actions are you referring to?

I don't find him towny, but this seems out of the blue from you.

[SpaceAnemone]

vote: SpaceAnemone

why not EFHW? or honestly why not LL? I mean don't get me wrong I am good with Space, just I feel like there are 2/3 minimum remaining skum there, so why that pick?

Space kept trying to derail the lynch with horrible reasoning. Was scum reading people for dumb reasons. And still didn’t lynch Galzria even near the deadline. They are scum.

OK yeah -
Space: Kind of unarguable you did that. anything to say about that from you POV?

See #927 and #929 for me pointing out my POV *before* the lynch. Then see #980 where gkrieg is trying to frame me as having been talking about "town!Hydrad". Then wonder why I'm frustrated. Then check for any place that gkrieg either acknowledged the risk of Hydrad being the SK or sensibly reasoned about the chances of ending the game with that lynch.

[gkrieg13]

hmm maybe efhw, space, and LL are all scum...

I have a hard time believing LaLight is town with his actions.

Since when? Where have you voiced any suspicion so far? What actions are you referring to?

I don't find him towny, but this seems out of the blue from you.

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

[EFHW]

I feel like it is impossible that I’m on a town wagon with 3 scum, which means I’m 100% sure galz is scum.

The fact that people are going to let this go to a no lynch is ridiculous. I mean galzria posted himself that we are most likely at real MYLO. I guess the only other option is that SK knows who mafia is from shooting them last night and hitting the hidden commuter or something?

Ugh this is immensely frustrating.

Here is an example of why I didn't follow gkrieg. Why is he assuming that Town!Hydrad=being on wagon with 3 scum? And if he thinks Galz/Hydrad is scum, why is he invoking Galz's opinions on MYLO to support his argument? How is the only other option that SK knows who mafia are? Option for what? It's like he's posting 1/3 of his actual thoughts.

[gkrieg13]

@gkriek, you are totally mischaracterizing my objection to the Galz lynch: I was definitely not arguing he was town, but that I preferred not to push someone who I thought had a strong chance of flipping SK, and wanted to push a wagon that had a higher chance of not losing the game.

But my logic held even better for galz not being the SK than not being town. It was obvious when he sat at L-1 for so long that he really couldn’t be the SK.

So right now do you believe EFHW is scum or do you believe it was a double bus?

[EFHW]

hmm maybe efhw, space, and LL are all scum...

I have a hard time believing LaLight is town with his actions.

Since when? Where have you voiced any suspicion so far? What actions are you referring to?

I don't find him towny, but this seems out of the blue from you.

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

Sorry, but that looks like OMGUS. And it's only one action. You said actions. I'm not voting for someone on wagon. I'm not voting at all. I stated intention to vote Space.

[Cuzz]

hmm maybe efhw, space, and LL are all scum...

I have a hard time believing LaLight is town with his actions.

Since when? Where have you voiced any suspicion so far? What actions are you referring to?

I don't find him towny, but this seems out of the blue from you.

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

Sorry, but that looks like OMGUS. And it's only one action. You said actions. I'm not voting for someone on wagon. I'm not voting at all. I stated intention to vote Space.

that does not look like OMGUS. if LL had voted for me or O instead and gkrieg responded by voting for LL, would that be OMGUS?

[gkrieg13]

I feel like it is impossible that I’m on a town wagon with 3 scum, which means I’m 100% sure galz is scum.

The fact that people are going to let this go to a no lynch is ridiculous. I mean galzria posted himself that we are most likely at real MYLO. I guess the only other option is that SK knows who mafia is from shooting them last night and hitting the hidden commuter or something?

Ugh this is immensely frustrating.

Here is an example of why I didn't follow gkrieg. Why is he assuming that Town!Hydrad=being on wagon with 3 scum? And if he thinks Galz/Hydrad is scum, why is he invoking Galz's opinions on MYLO to support his argument? How is the only other option that SK knows who mafia are? Option for what? It's like he's posting 1/3 of his actual thoughts.

This is so painful...

Scum would have hammered town or SK instead of trying to get a different lynch. Even if it doesn’t win them the game they would have done it. When you are this far in the game, you don’t let the clock get that close to ending the day.

If you agree with that reasoning, then me knowing I’m town means that if Hydrad were town, scum must all be on the wagon or else they would’ve hammered. So I must be on the wagon with three scum or Hydrad was scum.

The first paragraph had already been well established, and nearly everyone was in agreement. The second paragraph follows from the first and is just logical.

Following galz MYLO advice even though he was scum is obvious. Galz doesn’t lie about stuff like that.

Then we were talking about the night kills so far, because it is important to why mafia would have hammered galz even more so if they knew who SK was from shooting them when they were bulletproof. Which we had already talked about throughout the entire day and had also reached sort of a consensus on that being the most likely option (except the people off-wagon were saying that this wasn’t true).

[gkrieg13]

hmm maybe efhw, space, and LL are all scum...

I have a hard time believing LaLight is town with his actions.

Since when? Where have you voiced any suspicion so far? What actions are you referring to?

I don't find him towny, but this seems out of the blue from you.

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

Sorry, but that looks like OMGUS. And it's only one action. You said actions. I'm not voting for someone on wagon. I'm not voting at all. I stated intention to vote Space.

It’s not OMGUS. I wasn’t saying that you were voting for someone on wagon!  His vote yesterday on me was similarly scummy, because the reasoning was bad and he never came back to dedfend it.

[EFHW]

hmm maybe efhw, space, and LL are all scum...

I have a hard time believing LaLight is town with his actions.

Since when? Where have you voiced any suspicion so far? What actions are you referring to?

I don't find him towny, but this seems out of the blue from you.

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

Sorry, but that looks like OMGUS. And it's only one action. You said actions. I'm not voting for someone on wagon. I'm not voting at all. I stated intention to vote Space.

that does not look like OMGUS. if LL had voted for me or O instead and gkrieg responded by voting for LL, would that be OMGUS?

No. But he as much as said that his reason for suspecting LL is that LL voted him. What are the other actions he was referring to? LL had a legitimate point. He might be wrong, but it's not a scummy vote. gkrieg has been working very hard to lead town with a specific agenda, treating things as obvious that are not.

ppe: gkrieg

[gkrieg13]

@gkriek, you are totally mischaracterizing my objection to the Galz lynch: I was definitely not arguing he was town, but that I preferred not to push someone who I thought had a strong chance of flipping SK, and wanted to push a wagon that had a higher chance of not losing the game.

How would you know he had any chance of being the SK??  How can anyone ever know that?  Either way, that would still mean that all three people on the wagon already were scum (because as you say above lynching the SK is even better than lynching town for the SK), which means that my logic held even better that galz was very likely not the SK or town.

Either way, any argument that he wasn't scum at that point was terrible reasoning.  For him not to be scum, all of scum had to be on his wagon at that point, and galz was very scummy.

You still haven't answered my question of whether there was a double bus or if you are 100% sure that EFHW is scum.

[EFHW]

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

This isn't you saying I am voting for someone on wagon?

[gkrieg13]

My reads have been so bad this game, I don't know where to start. I'll try rereading the game with known flips in mind.

Why do you think you didn’t follow my advice yesterday. How many people do you think are scum on the wagon?

You have to either believe that Space is scum or that scum double bussed (which I would want you to justify why scum double bussed their roleblocker when it was pretty obvious that neither you or Space were going to vote for Hydrad).

@Space same question but switch Space for EFHW.

Which advice did I not follow?

Here you respond to the top paragraph, but skip the part of if Space is scum or scum double bussed.  It is not technically a question, so I guess you could argue that you didn't skip any questions, but it was obviously something I wanted you to comment on.

It wasn't just a read at that point. There were numerous direct implications that GalzHydrad being town would imply. You ignored people when they asked you to state which of the few scenarios in which GalzHydrad!Town was possible was even remotely likely (the reality: none of them were remotely likely).

I didn't agree with a lot of gkrieg's reasoning. The game would not end if we mislynched. I didn't want to mislynch, but he kept asserting things that weren't strictly true. Like he is doing now, that scum would never double buss their roleblocker. Who knows what they would do. I'm not going to make that assumption. They may have given him up as a lost cause and been trying for towncred. It was not certain that scum know who the SK is, either. Possible, sure, and more likely now that we had no deaths last night, but not something I was going to assume Day 3.

You are saying I ignored questions. That is not my recollection. Can you point to those posts?

What were the implications of town!Galz/Hydrad that were so unlikely?

The game would've been wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy x 1000 times closer to ending had we mislynched.  Scum clearly would've hammered town/SK there!!!  Yes I said some things that weren't strictly true, but there would've been like 0 repercussions for scum to hammer there if galz were town because no one would've faulted them with all the arguments that he was scum.  You guys were trying to argue that scum wouldn't outright win the game with a non-mafia hammer, which is true, but completely not the point you should have been arguing. 

Also did you see how yesterday went?  The lynch stalled super hard at L-1.  That is generally not how heavy busses go.  You are correct that it isn't 100% true that scum wouldn't double bus their roleblocker, but the roleblocker is the most important role for them right now, and gives them wayyyy more freedom once they know the SK to have the SK act like town.

The crazy thing is that everyone else seemed to be following my logic.  It's weird to me that the people off-wagon had such a difficult time following it...

What were the implications of town!Galz/Hydrad that were so unlikely?

town!Galz/Hydrad not getting hammered is super unlikely.  Scum would much rather mislynch than no lynch in pseudo MYLO instances at least 80% of the time.  The fact that he wasn't hammered means that (assuming he was town) all scum were on his wagon with me.  I know I'm town, so that means that the wagon was me and 3 scum, which I found highly unlikely from my reads.

[gkrieg13]

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

This isn't you saying I am voting for someone on wagon?

I feel like you are trying to misunderstand everything I say.  It applies directly to LaLight (because he is voting for someone who was on wagon yesterday, which is obvious if you have been keeping up with this day).  He also voted there with very little discussion of anything that happened yesterday.  It is fairly clear that that entire post is talking about LaLight.  You said that it felt like I came out of the blue with the LaLight suspicions, but you don't think it is out of the blue to be explaining my reasoning for scum reading LaLight, then in the middle of my post talk about you doing something you aren't doing?

[EFHW]

It’s for his vote on me. I just don’t understand how you can vote for someone on the wagon after how yesterday went.

This isn't you saying I am voting for someone on wagon?

I feel like you are trying to misunderstand everything I say.  It applies directly to LaLight (because he is voting for someone who was on wagon yesterday, which is obvious if you have been keeping up with this day).  He also voted there with very little discussion of anything that happened yesterday.  It is fairly clear that that entire post is talking about LaLight.  You said that it felt like I came out of the blue with the LaLight suspicions, but you don't think it is out of the blue to be explaining my reasoning for scum reading LaLight, then in the middle of my post talk about you doing something you aren't doing?

We've been through this before. I routinely misread what you post. You said "his vote on me" and "how you can vote on wagon".  How would I know that "he" had switched to "you"? I assumed "you" meant me, since you had said "he" in the previous sentence.

[EFHW]

Yes I said some things that weren't strictly true

This really affects my interest in doing what you say or trying to parse out your logic. I do try, but you make assumptions that I don't and you don't say them, so I can't agree with your arguments because they seem arbitrary to me.

...

The crazy thing is that everyone else seemed to be following my logic.  It's weird to me that the people off-wagon had such a difficult time following it...

You did not spell it out, you just said you couldn't be on a wagon with 3 scum.

[O]

@gkriek, you are totally mischaracterizing my objection to the Galz lynch: I was definitely not arguing he was town, but that I preferred not to push someone who I thought had a strong chance of flipping SK, and wanted to push a wagon that had a higher chance of not losing the game.

sK was even more likely than town to be quick hammered by scum. If scum knew a hypothetical galz was SK they would win on the spot by hammering. So you refused to vote for galz because for some reason you thought scum had less knowledge and intuition than you, or because scum was all three of the wagon.

Either way I don’t buy it for a second

[gkrieg13]

Yes I said some things that weren't strictly true

This really affects my interest in doing what you say or trying to parse out your logic. I do try, but you make assumptions that I don't and you don't say them, so I can't agree with your arguments because they seem arbitrary to me.

...

The crazy thing is that everyone else seemed to be following my logic.  It's weird to me that the people off-wagon had such a difficult time following it...

You did not spell it out, you just said you couldn't be on a wagon with 3 scum.

I understand that I make assumptions that aren't true, but yesterday most of the assumptions I made were the most likely situation.  Either way you should know that if someone sits at L-1 for that long and no one is hammering, there are strong implications when we are at possible MYLO.

I did not spell my logic out because many others were already on the same page as me.  Other people understood what I was saying.  We are currently having the wrong arguments though.  You and Space didn't vote for galzria.  Galzria had the most important role to scum.

Also, weird again that you haven't answered my question, the one that you have asked me to dig up, and the one that I have restated again. 

Do you think Space is scum?  Or do you think yesterday was a double scum bus?  From your point of view, you are town, which means that scum at least single bussed from your perspective.  Did they double bus?  Otherwise Space is scum.

[Swowl]

weekends suck-all for me sorry all. I will catch up now.

[EFHW]

I really don't know if they double bussed. I haven't been avoiding the question. I said Space is scummy, and that's currently where I am planning to vote.

[Swowl]

OK posts coming in sections:
Section 1) Sheff Claim

This should happen. I mean I guess the only reason it should not is that they do not have a incriminating result? maybe? but even then those results could be useful. This was brought up and then dismissed. We need to consider this more.

For us to lose from a Sheff claim with the current set up we would have to have Sheff accidentally mislead us into a mislynch, then have both Mafia and SK shoot town at night. That would leave us with 2 mafia -1 sk - 1 town. everything short of that, we at least continue.

The value of Sheff getting a result off tonight vs the 3 nights of results they have is not even close to consider.

[Swowl]

Section 2: Skum Power Roles

My idea here was to try to "solve" the remaining game state, but  honestly, it is not a thing worth it at this point. It would leave to much to be meddled with. Combine BP SK, Mafia commuter, the Town Drunk, the Mafia Rolestopper and the Mafia Roleblocker... there is just too much.

It leads me to further believe that a sheff claim would help.