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Author Topic: You may turn your journey token over...  (Read 1021 times)

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Holunder9

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Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2018, 03:08:21 pm »
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Something else to think about is that it's generally better to have one big turn than two middle sized turns. That's why cards like Giant or Ranger are better than their averages.
In the case of a payload card like Giant I agree as you can use it to get Provinces.
In the case of a terminal draw card like Ranger I disagree; in a deck-drawing engine you want 1 or 2 pairs of Rangers and it wouldn't matter if Ranger alternated between drawing 2 and 3 cards instead of 0 and 5 instead. The former can be even better as it makes your engine more consistent.
Half-Market is probably somewhere between those two cases.
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Gazbag

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Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2018, 04:47:28 pm »
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Something else to think about is that it's generally better to have one big turn than two middle sized turns. That's why cards like Giant or Ranger are better than their averages.
In the case of a payload card like Giant I agree as you can use it to get Provinces.
In the case of a terminal draw card like Ranger I disagree; in a deck-drawing engine you want 1 or 2 pairs of Rangers and it wouldn't matter if Ranger alternated between drawing 2 and 3 cards instead of 0 and 5 instead. The former can be even better as it makes your engine more consistent.
Half-Market is probably somewhere between those two cases.

Front loading all of the draw to the first Ranger is great for consistency. It's similar to start of the turn duration draw like that. You draw the name number of cards but don't need to find the 2nd Ranger within the first 3 and it works really nicely alongside other draw cards too because you can wait until the end of the tun to play the 2nd Ranger so you don't need to find as many villages at the start.

I'd price blinking castle at $3 to begin with, I think it'd be quite strong there so maybe it'd be better at $4. $2 is definitely too low though because this gives +buy so that'd make them too easy to pick up. Something that is kind of lost talking about the net market effect of this is that if you have an alternating pair of these you can set this up to give +2 Actions on the first play, so you're getting a "phantom" village you can use to play your draw during the turn.
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Holunder9

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Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2018, 03:28:53 am »
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Something else to think about is that it's generally better to have one big turn than two middle sized turns. That's why cards like Giant or Ranger are better than their averages.
In the case of a payload card like Giant I agree as you can use it to get Provinces.
In the case of a terminal draw card like Ranger I disagree; in a deck-drawing engine you want 1 or 2 pairs of Rangers and it wouldn't matter if Ranger alternated between drawing 2 and 3 cards instead of 0 and 5 instead. The former can be even better as it makes your engine more consistent.
Half-Market is probably somewhere between those two cases.

Front loading all of the draw to the first Ranger is great for consistency.
Sure but Ranger is not a card you want to use as mini Tactician, you want to play them in pairs and have an even number of them in your deck. Also, Ranger takes time to kick off as the first one is dead. If tempo/sifting matters a lot, e.g. in a Travellers game, a plain Smithy might be better (admittedly it probably isn't because of Ranger's extra Buy).


I'd price blinking castle at $3 to begin with, I think it'd be quite strong there so maybe it'd be better at $4.
$4 is too much. It is not like Market is a powerhouse $5. Just imagine that there are other Peddler variants in the Kingdom. You wouldn't really want to pay $4 for a half-Peddler with a half-Buy on top of it (unless you need the Buy but that applies generally for +Buy card; Herbalist isn't good just because you sometimes need to get it).
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Ghacob

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Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2018, 09:31:06 am »
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$2 Blinking Castle
Turn your journey token over (it starts face up).
Then if it's face up, +$1, +1 Buy,+2 cards and +2 Actions.
Blinking Castle is on average a Market so definitely too cheap for $2.
By my math, each pair of Blinking Castles cost you 2 actions to play and 2 cards to draw and gives you back those 2 actions and cards, so each pair nets you +$1 and +1 buy. Each pair, not copy, has the same net benefit as one Market.
What a blunder by me, you are of course totally right.
Now the question is whether a half-Market is balanced at $2 or $3. I'd tend towards $3 but I am not sure.

Pawn is a half-Market, and it's sold for $2!  ;D
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Asper

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Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2018, 12:51:40 pm »
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$2 Blinking Castle
Turn your journey token over (it starts face up).
Then if it's face up, +$1, +1 Buy,+2 cards and +2 Actions.
Blinking Castle is on average a Market so definitely too cheap for $2.
By my math, each pair of Blinking Castles cost you 2 actions to play and 2 cards to draw and gives you back those 2 actions and cards, so each pair nets you +$1 and +1 buy. Each pair, not copy, has the same net benefit as one Market.
What a blunder by me, you are of course totally right.
Now the question is whether a half-Market is balanced at $2 or $3. I'd tend towards $3 but I am not sure.

Pawn is a half-Market, and it's sold for $2!  ;D

Two Pawns are less than one Market, though. They would both have to be cantrips and give a bonus on top of that to do what Market does. I assume you're being funny, but the Pawn comparison isn't that bad, actually. It certainly looks more like a 3$ to me.

Holunder9

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Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2018, 03:20:31 am »
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$2 Blinking Castle
Turn your journey token over (it starts face up).
Then if it's face up, +$1, +1 Buy,+2 cards and +2 Actions.
Blinking Castle is on average a Market so definitely too cheap for $2.
By my math, each pair of Blinking Castles cost you 2 actions to play and 2 cards to draw and gives you back those 2 actions and cards, so each pair nets you +$1 and +1 buy. Each pair, not copy, has the same net benefit as one Market.
What a blunder by me, you are of course totally right.
Now the question is whether a half-Market is balanced at $2 or $3. I'd tend towards $3 but I am not sure.

Pawn is a half-Market, and it's sold for $2!  ;D

Two Pawns are less than one Market, though. They would both have to be cantrips and give a bonus on top of that to do what Market does. I assume you're being funny, but the Pawn comparison isn't that bad, actually. It certainly looks more like a 3$ to me.
Yeah, compared to all the $2 cantrips with a little bonus half-Market looks too good. Even the stronger ones like Patrician that are more often than not a Lab in a set-up engine suck in the opening whereas the Blinking Castle is always OKish.
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faust

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Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2018, 03:24:18 am »
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$2 Blinking Castle
Turn your journey token over (it starts face up).
Then if it's face up, +$1, +1 Buy,+2 cards and +2 Actions.
Blinking Castle is on average a Market so definitely too cheap for $2.
By my math, each pair of Blinking Castles cost you 2 actions to play and 2 cards to draw and gives you back those 2 actions and cards, so each pair nets you +$1 and +1 buy. Each pair, not copy, has the same net benefit as one Market.
What a blunder by me, you are of course totally right.
Now the question is whether a half-Market is balanced at $2 or $3. I'd tend towards $3 but I am not sure.

Pawn is a half-Market, and it's sold for $2!  ;D

Two Pawns are less than one Market, though. They would both have to be cantrips and give a bonus on top of that to do what Market does. I assume you're being funny, but the Pawn comparison isn't that bad, actually. It certainly looks more like a 3$ to me.
I mean Caravan Guard is essentially a half-Peddler (minus the reaction) at $3. Half-Market is better, but missing the reaction... so probably fine.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.
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