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Author Topic: How to be good at Dominion  (Read 1186 times)

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Awaclus

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How to be good at Dominion
« on: March 24, 2018, 05:31:14 pm »
+4

Always keep in mind that winning is more important than having fun, and learning is more important than winning (unless it’s an important tournament match, in which case winning takes precedence). If you have an ambitious goal that you want to reach, such as being good at Dominion, you can’t expect to get there by fooling around forever, and you certainly can’t expect to get there by doing the things you already know how to do forever. If you want to get there, you need to be prepared to work hard, and you need to be prepared to fail.

In other words, whenever you’re just playing Dominion on the ladder or even unranked games, don’t pick the most fun strategy or the strategy that gives you the best odds of winning, pick the strategy that makes you feel the most uncomfortable. If you can’t do that, you might have to face the harsh reality that you won’t have great hopes of getting good at Dominion.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2018, 06:32:06 pm »
0

...don’t pick the most fun strategy or the strategy that gives you the best odds of winning, pick the strategy that makes you feel the most uncomfortable...

I'm not even trying that hard to get good at dominion...but I still follow that because I like learning and experimenting.
I often let whoever i'm playing with go first, so I can guarantee that I don't pick the same opening.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2018, 05:38:27 am »
+6

I think there is a problem with this strategy: if you're not having fun, there's a good chance you'll stop playing.
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Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2018, 06:16:33 am »
0

I think there is a problem with this strategy: if you're not having fun, there's a good chance you'll stop playing.

Sure, if you're not determined enough.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2018, 10:23:13 am »
+1

See, it was the opposite of this for me. When I first started playing, I lost almost every game. But I was having so much fun that I kept playing, and eventually I got better and better. But winning was never really the goal; I play games because they're fun. If all I cared about was winning and never having fun, I would endlessly play tic tac toe against someone who doesn't know that the game is solved. Or something along those lines. I would have never gotten good at dominion if all I cared about was winning, because I probably would have quit first.

Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2018, 12:19:16 pm »
0

See, it was the opposite of this for me. When I first started playing, I lost almost every game. But I was having so much fun that I kept playing, and eventually I got better and better. But winning was never really the goal; I play games because they're fun. If all I cared about was winning and never having fun, I would endlessly play tic tac toe against someone who doesn't know that the game is solved. Or something along those lines. I would have never gotten good at dominion if all I cared about was winning, because I probably would have quit first.

Looks like you have successfully read the first 12 words of the article. I recommend reading the rest of the article too.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2018, 12:26:38 pm »
+2

While the text in the OP might be good advice for some people, it is certainly not an article.
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Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2018, 01:06:40 pm »
0

While the text in the OP might be good advice for some people, it is certainly not an article.

Why not?
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Chris is me

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2018, 01:51:34 pm »
+12

I think you could expand on this idea to make it a great short article. Right now it has a bit of that "Awaclus-ism" where it makes some absolute and sweeping statements to make a greater point, and it alludes to a concept that it invites the reader to draw conclusions about themselves. I think you could give the reader a little bit more help and qualify your advice a bit more.

It's totally valid - you cannot improve by being stagnant, and you absolutely should experiment, try the weird shit, go for the "too-hard" engine in low stakes games. I think you could give a few examples on what exactly this actually means, if not literally saying here is a kingdom, this is what an exploring player might try, etc. Just maybe even another paragraph or two to really drive it home - experience is the best teacher, the game is won at the highest levels by those who have learned when to go out on a limb and go for it, you can only learn how to do that by forcing oyurself to collect positive and even negative experiences in that realm. Spoon feeding this concept to the reader can help round this out to a length that's a bit longer than a tweet and really emphasize the key point and avoids people getting hung up on the parts you didn't mean to emphasize as much.

I think it oversteps itself in saying that not trying to do this in just-for-fun unranked games necessarily means you will never get better at Dominion. It's okay to have fun and fuck around sometimes, you can choose to get better at Dominion even if not literally every Dominion game you ever play exists to further this purpose. Hey, maybe sometimes you're just hanging out with friends, or you're just passively clicking cards against a bot while you're watching TV. I don't think this means you're doomed to be bad at dominion. Top players do this too.
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Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2018, 02:39:40 pm »
0

I think you could expand on this idea to make it a great short article. Right now it has a bit of that "Awaclus-ism" where it makes some absolute and sweeping statements to make a greater point, and it alludes to a concept that it invites the reader to draw conclusions about themselves. I think you could give the reader a little bit more help and qualify your advice a bit more.

It's totally valid - you cannot improve by being stagnant, and you absolutely should experiment, try the weird shit, go for the "too-hard" engine in low stakes games. I think you could give a few examples on what exactly this actually means, if not literally saying here is a kingdom, this is what an exploring player might try, etc. Just maybe even another paragraph or two to really drive it home - experience is the best teacher, the game is won at the highest levels by those who have learned when to go out on a limb and go for it, you can only learn how to do that by forcing oyurself to collect positive and even negative experiences in that realm. Spoon feeding this concept to the reader can help round this out to a length that's a bit longer than a tweet and really emphasize the key point and avoids people getting hung up on the parts you didn't mean to emphasize as much.

I think it oversteps itself in saying that not trying to do this in just-for-fun unranked games necessarily means you will never get better at Dominion. It's okay to have fun and fuck around sometimes, you can choose to get better at Dominion even if not literally every Dominion game you ever play exists to further this purpose. Hey, maybe sometimes you're just hanging out with friends, or you're just passively clicking cards against a bot while you're watching TV. I don't think this means you're doomed to be bad at dominion. Top players do this too.

Well, I really want it to be as short as it can be. The shorter it is, the less effort it requires from someone to read all of it. It's not really a very complex or nuanced thing, I just want to draw some attention to the concept that you have to keep challenging yourself and stepping out of your comfort zone if you want to get better at the game.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2018, 04:46:04 pm »
+1

I don't know, I personally don't find it very fun to lose unless I am more concerned that the other players enjoy the game enough to want to replay it. Generally, it becomes hard to convince IRL friends and family to play Dominion or similar games with me because they don't like to lose to me, so maybe I am not alone here. Online, I assume my opponent is playing because they want to, and so I don't have much incentive to hold back.

What drove me to get better was this sense of "never again". "Never again" will I lose because my opponent mirrored my engine but got Horn of Plenty when I didn't, "never again" will I lose because I stupidly ignored Scrying Pool, and so on. In this vein, losing to higher level players in a demoralizing seems like a possible catalyst for getting better. I fully acknowledge this as being negative reinforcement, but I cannot deny that it played a major role in me getting better at Dominion.

Yeah, there are some cards and strategies I am more fond of than others, but I've made efforts to detach my preferences from my actual decisions. Fortunately, I do find satisfaction in the act of finding the path to victory on a given Dominion board, especially since path can look very different depending on the board (engine, slog, rush, "good stuff", etc.).
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weesh

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2018, 05:05:15 pm »
0

Well, I really want it to be as short as it can be. The shorter it is, the less effort it requires from someone to read all of it. It's not really a very complex or nuanced thing, I just want to draw some attention to the concept that you have to keep challenging yourself and stepping out of your comfort zone if you want to get better at the game.

Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, discovered that the only way to get his simple ideas published was to write an entire book, of mostly unrelated things, and then put his short awesome idea in the last chapter.  For instance, his "Unified Theory of Everything Financial" is just 9 bullet points, and he wrote "Dilbert and the Way of the Weasels" just so he could get his idea published.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a VERY short article, except that your audience probably has a mental hurdle based on the belief that important things can't be short.
A short article is certainly better than one bloated with fluff to fill it out.

For articles this short however, a "mini-manifesto" thread might make people less uncomfortable about it.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2018, 09:22:34 am »
+7

I just want to draw some attention to the concept that you have to keep challenging yourself and stepping out of your comfort zone if you want to get better at the game.

And I think just saying this might be more effective at accomplishing that goal than your article is. Part of that is because of how off-putting it begins. It doesn't matter how short or long it is when it starts with the statement: "Always keep in mind that winning is more important than having fun." For me, at best this makes you sound like you're out of touch with why many people play dominion (so then why would I listen to what else you have to say?), and at the worst it just makes you sound like a dick (so, again, I have no incentive to keep reading). Personally, I would have never read the whole thing if I wasn't already familiar with your eccentricities, Awaclus (and to be clear, this isn't intended as an insult. It means I kept reading because I think you often have worthwhile things to say even when the way you say them puts me off).

I think it could also help to start off this article with a clear "thesis" statement. I think something like "To improve at playing Dominion you have to keep challenging yourself and stepping out of your comfort zone. For this purpose, always keep in mind that winning is more important than having fun..." would have made that first sentence much more palatable even without revising it.

Otherwise, I agree with Chris is me's suggestions.


I think there is a problem with this strategy: if you're not having fun, there's a good chance you'll stop playing.

Sure, if you're not determined enough.

I'm confused by this. Why play Dominion if you're not having fun?
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Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2018, 10:25:49 am »
0

I just want to draw some attention to the concept that you have to keep challenging yourself and stepping out of your comfort zone if you want to get better at the game.

And I think just saying this might be more effective at accomplishing that goal than your article is. Part of that is because of how off-putting it begins. It doesn't matter how short or long it is when it starts with the statement: "Always keep in mind that winning is more important than having fun." For me, at best this makes you sound like you're out of touch with why many people play dominion (so then why would I listen to what else you have to say?), and at the worst it just makes you sound like a dick (so, again, I have no incentive to keep reading). Personally, I would have never read the whole thing if I wasn't already familiar with your eccentricities, Awaclus (and to be clear, this isn't intended as an insult. It means I kept reading because I think you often have worthwhile things to say even when the way you say them puts me off).

If you're not playing Dominion because you want to be good at it, then you're not the target audience for this article. I might recommend reading an article titled "How to have fun with Dominion" instead in that case.

I'm confused by this. Why play Dominion if you're not having fun?

Why practice playing the violin if you're not having fun? If you don't want to achieve anything, then it's fine to only ever do things that are fun.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2018, 10:58:45 am »
0

I agree it's more important to be winning than having fun to become better. I got much better since I bit the bullet and stop auto-resigning as soon Rebuild and other hate cards showed up. I instead learnt to play with them and to see when I'm actually able to beat them. To play with Rebuild is still not that much fun, but I have become a better player than before. Very few board scares me off any longer.

I just would like to ask how you would define "winning" here. I assume it's not any singular game you are thinking of, but what is it otherwise? I still don't care that much of winning, more than I wish to know more of the game and keep getting better. "Fun" for me is to understand Dominion and the better grasp I get of the game the more fun I'm having. The proof of this is to see my rating go higher but it's not a goal in it self, just a verification that what I'm learning is not just misleading nonsense. Is it something like this you are referring to or is there some other way of winning I'm not thinking of myself?
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2018, 11:33:51 am »
+3

I just want to draw some attention to the concept that you have to keep challenging yourself and stepping out of your comfort zone if you want to get better at the game.

And I think just saying this might be more effective at accomplishing that goal than your article is. Part of that is because of how off-putting it begins. It doesn't matter how short or long it is when it starts with the statement: "Always keep in mind that winning is more important than having fun." For me, at best this makes you sound like you're out of touch with why many people play dominion (so then why would I listen to what else you have to say?), and at the worst it just makes you sound like a dick (so, again, I have no incentive to keep reading). Personally, I would have never read the whole thing if I wasn't already familiar with your eccentricities, Awaclus (and to be clear, this isn't intended as an insult. It means I kept reading because I think you often have worthwhile things to say even when the way you say them puts me off).

If you're not playing Dominion because you want to be good at it, then you're not the target audience for this article. I might recommend reading an article titled "How to have fun with Dominion" instead in that case.

I'm confused by this. Why play Dominion if you're not having fun?

Why practice playing the violin if you're not having fun? If you don't want to achieve anything, then it's fine to only ever do things that are fun.

I don't think there is any person who plays Dominion only to be good at it, without also finding it fun. There are millions of things you can choose to become good at. Why not become good at something that you actually enjoy?

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2018, 11:58:43 am »
+4

I don't think there is any person who plays Dominion only to be good at it, without also finding it fun. There are millions of things you can choose to become good at. Why not become good at something that you actually enjoy?

Strongly agree. To use Awaclus's example, if you're practicing the violin, then either:

1. Your parents/guardians are forcing you to do so.
2. It's a (dubioius) investment toward the goal of making money as a concert violinist.
3. You enjoy it.

…or some combination of the above.

If you don't enjoy playing Dominion, don't play Dominion. If you enjoy playing crazy strategies and don't mind losing a little more often, do that. If you don't enjoy putting in a lot of hard work to get better at Dominion (or any game), don't do that!
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Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2018, 12:17:50 pm »
0

I just would like to ask how you would define "winning" here. I assume it's not any singular game you are thinking of, but what is it otherwise? I still don't care that much of winning, more than I wish to know more of the game and keep getting better. "Fun" for me is to understand Dominion and the better grasp I get of the game the more fun I'm having. The proof of this is to see my rating go higher but it's not a goal in it self, just a verification that what I'm learning is not just misleading nonsense. Is it something like this you are referring to or is there some other way of winning I'm not thinking of myself?

Winning just means that you don't reject certain strategies because you think they're boring, unfair, etc.

I don't think there is any person who plays Dominion only to be good at it, without also finding it fun. There are millions of things you can choose to become good at. Why not become good at something that you actually enjoy?

You don't enjoy the process of becoming good at something itself? Sure, Dominion is fun. But if your primary goal is to get good at Dominion, your primary goal can't be having fun. Not even once have I looked at a board and asked myself the question "what strategy should I do here in order to have the most fun I can possibly have?".

I have looked at a board and prioritized winning over learning though, thousands of times actually, and that hasn't been great.

If you don't enjoy putting in a lot of hard work to get better at Dominion (or any game), don't read articles on how to do that!

FTFY
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2018, 12:36:03 pm »
0

Of course, sometimes learning and fun go together against winning; this applies principally when there is a boring monolithic strategy (Rebuild rush, for example) available on the board, and you think "can I try something off-the-wall and see if it beats the Rebuild rush?".
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2018, 12:40:36 pm »
+1

If you don't enjoy putting in a lot of hard work to get better at Dominion (or any game), don't read articles on how to do that!
FTFY
I strongly disagree with your "fix".

It's possible to write articles that help people to play Dominion better without requiring them to put in monstrous amounts of effort and sapping all the fun out of playing. Those are the sort of article most people would be wanting and expecting if they clicked on an article entitled "how to be good at Dominion".

I think people already know that if they throw their values, their livelihood, their commitments, their joy and their relationships under the bus, they could thereby devote their entire lives to the single-minded objective of being absolutely as good at Dominion as they possibly could be. That's obvious. And yet people don't; why not?

You seem to be under the grave misapprehension that the reason more people don't do that is that it's never occurred to them as an option, where in reality it's because they make other life choices. As such, I don't think this article has a target audience.
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Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2018, 01:43:33 pm »
0

If you don't enjoy putting in a lot of hard work to get better at Dominion (or any game), don't read articles on how to do that!
FTFY
I strongly disagree with your "fix".

Why would you read articles on how to do things you're not going to do anyway?

It's possible to write articles that help people to play Dominion better without requiring them to put in monstrous amounts of effort and sapping all the fun out of playing. Those are the sort of article most people would be wanting and expecting if they clicked on an article entitled "how to be good at Dominion".

Man, if always playing the most difficult strategy is "monstrous amounts of effort and sapping all the fun out of playing" to you, then I don't think any amount of articles is going to make you good at Dominion regardless of how they were written.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2018, 03:03:11 pm »
0

Always keep in mind that winning is more important than having fun.
Stopped reading there. People play boardgames to have a good time. Of course everybody has some ambition to be good at the game they are playing and win, but not at the cost of taking the fun out of it. I rarely meet such hypercompetitive folks  at the table but if I do it is usually the last time I play with them again. Games are still games and not work (and I say this as somebody who likes heavy Euros).

For example I played a three player Swindler game yesterday. It was totally wacky and lead to a 3-pile ending. I did not anticipate this and did not play particularly well but we had a blast.

Contrary to your claim there is no conflict between trying out new stuff, enjoying and excelling at a game at the same time. If you like what you do you will automatically feel and do all of that.
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Awaclus

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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2018, 04:17:15 pm »
0

Stopped reading there.

Stopped reading there.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2018, 04:20:03 pm »
0

The problem is that the relative importance of winning vs fun is not really something you can argue.  Either the reader disagrees or agrees, and nothing you can say will change their mind or help them think about it more clearly.

In contrast, saying learning is more important than winning is something you can argue, because learning will win you more games in the long run.  I'm not sure this is a sufficiently deep point to justify an article though.

Of course, the strategy blog seems to like publishing very short articles that make only a few points, so it's not surprising that people (including me) try to write articles in that style.
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Re: How to be good at Dominion
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2018, 04:27:41 pm »
+2

Unless you like arguing just for the sake of arguing, I don’t think there’s much to add to what has already been said.

Just my two cents before anyone gets worked up.
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pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.
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