Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Awaclus]

I don't think a VP based handicap is great, because a number of VP which is hardly significant on one board could be a really big deal on another board, and a bidding based system can result in ridiculous games where it's a Province megaturn game and getting down the optimal bid is suddenly like half of the skill element in the game.

I have two different suggestion for making the game more balanced:

1) A coin token based handicap. Coins always have pretty much the same value, so if you can find the perfect number of coin tokens to compensate for the first player's advantage without giving the second player an unfair advantage in turn, that should work across most kingdoms (I imagine that number is exactly 1). The main issue that I see with this is that a 5/3 opening is a big deal in all levels of play, whereas FPA is only a big deal when both players are like in the level 60 range, so for the average ladder game, this would make the situation worse than it is now.

2) After the starting hands have been dealt, player 1 must choose either turn 1 or turn 2 and then they won't be allowed to buy anything or play any cards on that turn. Effectively, player 2 is now half a turn ahead, but player 1 is half a shuffle ahead. I have no idea if this is balanced or not, but it doesn't sound too unreasonable on paper.

[GendoIkari]

Other options, similar to your first, would be to mess with the starting deck. Player 2 could get a 6 Coppers and a Silver instead of 7 Coppers. That should be pretty similar to a coin token.

I feel like missing an opening turn is too big... except for when it's not. Like, if you have 5/2 and there's no good 2's, then that handicap changes nothing at all.

Here's some other threads where handicapping has been discussed:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=95.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=950
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1288
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=335

[Awaclus]

I feel like missing an opening turn is too big...

Well, instead of a nerf for the first player, how about a buff for the second player? The second player gets to start the game with the worse half of their deck in the discard pile so that they never have to draw it until they reshuffle it in.

[weesh]

Here's some other threads where handicapping has been discussed:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=95.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=950
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1288
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=335

Can we maybe discuss it here anyways, since those are all 6+ years old, and several of them are more about handicapping yourself against a weak player, rather than competitive play compensation?  Also one of them doesn't have any discussion at all.

Breezing through those 1 page threads, I didn't see anyone talking about non-coin tokens.

For instance, if the second player was given a +action token, or +buy token, to spend once per game.
Or maybe a token that can be used once, as a +buy OR a +action
If those are too much, perhaps require the user to spend some resource to activate it.
For instance, the token could require spending a buy, action, or $1.

those seem less useful in the early game, where you really don't want one player leaping ahead of the other, and there shouldn't be a time when they are backbreaking.

Alternatively, there could be an event that has some small bonus, but it is reserved for only the second player...but as soon as the second player uses it, then it's reserved for only the first player, and control continues to swap with use.

Given that dominion is a game of changing kingdoms, it could be interesting if there were MANY tiny boons to the first player, and one got randomly selected as the 2nd player boon.

I feel like missing an opening turn is too big...

Well, instead of a nerf for the first player, how about a buff for the second player? The second player gets to start the game with the worse half of their deck in the discard pile so that they never have to draw it until they reshuffle it in.

Is that definitively a buff?  It sounds interesting, but their first reshuffle only has 1 card better than copper.

[markusin]

You can also have second player be given something akin to a heirloom or a shelter instead of one of their starting Coppers or Estates. Say, a Copper that lets you topdeck a card from your hand (maybe restrict it to action cards), or a shelter that trashes itself and possibly it gives +1VP on trash.

[Chris is me]

Ideas I’ve had:
-Give second player a coin token
-Second player gets to choose opening hands and order
-Second player can trash a card at the first shuffle

Ideas I’ve actually liked after trying them:
-Just dealing with it. Coin token is alright tho.

[Neirai the Forgiven]

I'd start small, like,
"First player draws 6 cards on their first hand."

[GendoIkari]

I'd start small, like,
"First player draws 6 cards on their first hand."

This could, on rare occasions, give first player even more of a boost. He could play Goons on turn 2, (without any special stuff in the Kingdom that allows that in a regular game).

[Simon Jester]

Play with Tax?

May I ask if the first player advantage is much more apparent on higher levels? On my level I can recognise it, but I look at it as serves in tennis and don't mind being behind as a second player. In fact a win as second player is much more rewarding. A win against a good player when going first is like "phew, I made it", as second it's more like "yes, maddafakkin Yes!!" - Please don't take that away from me if the change isn't really going to improve the gameplay over all. Personally I don't think so, but again, I'm playing mostly for the funsies.   

[trivialknot]

I think the best game-theoretic way to do it is bidding.  Bidding is an auto-balancing mechanic, because however much it's worth to go first in a given kingdom, that's how much you should bid if you're playing optimally.

Probably the best thing to bid with is VP.  So if I win with a bid of 4 VP, then I go first, and you start with 4 VP tokens.

There are several kinds of auctions you could use to determine the bids, but it probably doesn't matter so I'd just go with an English auction.

ETA: yeah I guess this was already suggested in the OP.

[trivialknot]

The Star Realms method of mitigating 1st player advantage is to have them draw fewer cards at start of game.  Maybe if the first player only draws 4 cards on the first turn, possibly the second turn.  And maybe fix which cards miss the first shuffle.

[Neirai the Forgiven]

I'd start small, like,
"First player draws 6 cards on their first hand."

This could, on rare occasions, give first player even more of a boost. He could play Goons on turn 2, (without any special stuff in the Kingdom that allows that in a regular game).

Err yes, apparently my brain misfired and went backwards. I meant draw 4 cards and thought 6 for some backwards reason.

[Awaclus]

May I ask if the first player advantage is much more apparent on higher levels? On my level I can recognise it, but I look at it as serves in tennis and don't mind being behind as a second player. In fact a win as second player is much more rewarding. A win against a good player when going first is like "phew, I made it", as second it's more like "yes, maddafakkin Yes!!" - Please don't take that away from me if the change isn't really going to improve the gameplay over all. Personally I don't think so, but again, I'm playing mostly for the funsies.

Yes. In almost all of my recent tournament matches, first player has won at least 5 games out of 6.

Is that definitively a buff?  It sounds interesting, but their first reshuffle only has 1 card better than copper.

If that isn't a buff then opening Mandarin is a great idea.

[Holunder9]

I think the best game-theoretic way to do it is bidding.  Bidding is an auto-balancing mechanic, because however much it's worth to go first in a given kingdom, that's how much you should bid if you're playing optimally.

Probably the best thing to bid with is VP.  So if I win with a bid of 4 VP, then I go first, and you start with 4 VP tokens.

There are several kinds of auctions you could use to determine the bids, but it probably doesn't matter so I'd just go with an English auction.

ETA: yeah I guess this was already suggested in the OP.

I agree that an auction would be the best way. It seems like Beyond Awesome already had such an idea a while ago. ThetaSigma mocked it up here

[somekindoftony]

I suggest that you would need a handicap or bonus that can scale for more than two players.
Eg. In a four player game, players 1, 2 and 3 would all add respectively 3, 2 and 1 coppers to their deck. To be clear that means Player 1 in a four player game has 3 extra coppers in their deck. Player 1 in a two player game would only need to have one extra copper in their deck.  You have to be better at instructional writing than me to figure out how to express this as a rule.

The problem is of course that this can be a huge deal in some games compared to others. Extra coppers early on can even be a benefit. But the beauty of using coppers is they are in the core set. No need for more pieces.

I'd also add that the having a little bit of imbalance due to turn order is not a terrible thing. As I am more experienced than my mates I can go last. Its not a huge difference but it can help balance things a little.

[GendoIkari]

I'd start small, like,
"First player draws 6 cards on their first hand."

This could, on rare occasions, give first player even more of a boost. He could play Goons on turn 2, (without any special stuff in the Kingdom that allows that in a regular game).

Err yes, apparently my brain misfired and went backwards. I meant draw 4 cards and thought 6 for some backwards reason.

That's funny, because looking at it now, I don't know what I was thinking when I said "on rare occasions". Somehow I was thinking that having to shuffle to draw a single card for turn 2 would mess everything up and set you back, but pretty sure I was way off. Drawing 4 cards might work out pretty well as a balance.

[weesh]

That's funny, because looking at it now, I don't know what I was thinking when I said "on rare occasions". Somehow I was thinking that having to shuffle to draw a single card for turn 2 would mess everything up and set you back, but pretty sure I was way off. Drawing 4 cards might work out pretty well as a balance.

case 1: the 10th card is an estate
 seems reasonable.  you still get a regular opening. your third hand is worse, but you don't miss out on the cards that your opponents rushed into their deck.

case 2: the 10th card is a copper
 this seems like it could be tragic. if a critical trasher costs 4$, you could be hosed by a 3/3 opening.  if a critical trasher costs 3$, you could be hosed by a 2/4 opening. 

Getting messed up on your first 2 hands is a bigger deal than later on.

what do you think about drawing 4 cards on your third turn instead?  That simulates case 1. 

[markusin]

That's funny, because looking at it now, I don't know what I was thinking when I said "on rare occasions". Somehow I was thinking that having to shuffle to draw a single card for turn 2 would mess everything up and set you back, but pretty sure I was way off. Drawing 4 cards might work out pretty well as a balance.

case 1: the 10th card is an estate
 seems reasonable.  you still get a regular opening. your third hand is worse, but you don't miss out on the cards that your opponents rushed into their deck.

case 2: the 10th card is a copper
 this seems like it could be tragic. if a critical trasher costs 4$, you could be hosed by a 3/3 opening.  if a critical trasher costs 3$, you could be hosed by a 2/4 opening. 

Getting messed up on your first 2 hands is a bigger deal than later on.

what do you think about drawing 4 cards on your third turn instead?  That simulates case 1.

There are a lot of non-standard turn 3s. Easy example is opening Mandarin. It's weird to have to track when exactly the third turn takes place. Plus it doesn't change much if the first player advantage comes from a discard attack like Militia that you get in the first 2 turns.

[Cave-o-sapien]

Let first player choose their starting hands, but they also start with their -1 coin token.

[Holunder9]

There are a lot of non-standard turn 3s. Easy example is opening Mandarin. It's weird to have to track when exactly the third turn takes place.

Stuff like Outpost or Mission raises question about how to count turns but all that Mandarin does is topdeck Treasures.