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Author Topic: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?  (Read 7563 times)

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MattLee

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Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« on: March 14, 2018, 01:00:38 am »
0

My wife loves Dominion but hates complex or weird cards, she loves the simplicity of the base game and the further we go from that the less she likes it. Which means we will never play with a lot of the newer cards. That stinks but it is what it is. I've been wondering if I could take some of the Heirlooms and split piles and buy more of them so as to make whole kingdom piles with them. Would any of them be overpowered? Would any of them be terrible and never get bought? These are the ones I'd consider doing it to -

Goat, Pasture, Pouch, Cursed Gold, Lucky Coin
Plunder, Patrician, Emporium, Settlers, Bustling Village

Thoughts?

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popsofctown

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 01:33:46 am »
+3

Goat : Side by side comparison between Goat and Forager would suggest Goat is o.k.  We have had discussion about Goat being bonkers good, but costing 2$ and a buy is so different from costing 0$ and no buys.

Pasture : It's pretty hard to evaluate VP scaling of this type in the dark.  I suspect it's not a direction that's fun to go in.

Pouch : There's a general known card design principle that we've developed over time that, +buy can get stapled to anything and still be relevant, and then even if the card it's been stapled to is crappy, it's interesting to decide whether to stoop that low or not.  So Pouch should work out okish.

Cursed Gold: Cursed Gold will not be bought.  Players debate whether to even play Cursed Gold the second or third time.  Paying 4$ to put it in your deck is another thing altogether

Lucky Coin: If you reach a higher level of play, this will never be bought.  At lower skill levels, this could win games just because silvery strategies are easy.  I think it won't improve your play experience to make a full stack of these, but that doesn't mean if you do it anyway the person who buys these will never win.

Plunder: Plunder is probably fine.  I suspect even if it's broken it's broken in a cute enough way, I doubt you can ignore all the other 5's and still win.  Maybe you can when Smithy and Envoy are on the board, but I think Oracle wouldn't be enough.  I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong.

Patrician: This is like, definitely fine, go for it.

Emporium:  This should be pretty fine too, it is too similar to Peddler in incentives and impact to be terrible.

Settlers:  Definitely fine.

Bustling Village:  Definitely going to turn out okay.


Keep in mind your other options:

Buying expansions designed for different skill levels, if you are not completing your collection with these (there's no buyer's guide anywhere in the box, but Intrigue is designed for beginners, Seaside is somewhat basic due to being an early set, and Hinterlands was specifically designed to feel kind of like a base set, even though it came much later.)

Printing out sweet fan cards that have a low complexity.

Getting your hands on low complexity promos like Walled Village, Envoy, Disassemble (that's not it's exact name, it's super new, forgive me), or Governor (depends on what style of complexity she dislikes).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:36:22 am by popsofctown »
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Awaclus

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 01:43:32 am »
+5

My recommendation is to just play more Dominion until she actually wants the extra complexity. Best case scenario is if you can get her play online.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 08:06:12 pm »
+2

You should make Necropolis into a kingdom pile
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 08:30:00 pm »
+4

Getting your hands on low complexity promos like... Governor (depends on what style of complexity she dislikes).
I agree with almost everything pops said, but Governor is not low-complexity in any way. I hate Governor, but mainly because I seem to be terrible with it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:31:27 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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crj

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 09:03:16 pm »
+2

My wife loves Dominion but hates complex or weird cards, she loves the simplicity of the base game and the further we go from that the less she likes it.
Are there any other people you can play Dominion with? There are expansions which, though they'd be bad value for money if she was the only person who was ever going to play them, do contain several surprisingly simple yet interesting cards.

Examples from (fairly) recent expansions:
  • Dark Ages: Armory, Bandit Camp, Junk Dealer
  • Guilds: Candlestick Maker, Baker
  • Adventures: Port, Lost City, Hireling
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trivialknot

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 10:38:55 pm »
+1

It's okay to introduce new cards very slowly, over the course of many years.  After all, that's what most of us did, if we bought the expansions as they were released.

I'm not really sure how using heirlooms and split piles as full kingdom piles really addresses the problem.  But sure, you could do that.  Most of them are probably fine.  I agree with popsofctown's comments.
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MattLee

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 11:44:04 pm »
0

Thanks for the replies! Special thanks to pops for your insight on each card. If I do this I won't bother with Pasture or Cursed Gold. I know it seems weird that she won't be interested in complex cards, but normally we play yahtzee or checkers or other boring games, so this is still a huge step up.

We have the Base game + update packs, Intrigue, Seaside and Prosperity and have used maybe 90% of the cards. For a bit we tried fan cards but they could be frusteratingly unbalanced so we don't anymore. We'll get guilds / cornacopia, and hinterlands and probably use a lot of the cards. Those aren't all simple but do look easy to understand. After that I'm thinking we'll have to combine sets a little.
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ipofanes

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2018, 04:33:02 am »
+2

I know it seems weird that she won't be interested in complex cards

Not at all. There's tons of hobbies that require acquiring modest skills that I am not into.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 09:04:35 am »
+3

I sometimes miss Settlers being a full pile of 10, such that you could really build a Settlers deck even when the Settlers were contested.
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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 12:25:40 pm »
+1

I sometimes miss Settlers being a full pile of 10, such that you could really build a Settlers deck even when the Settlers were contested.

There are many games where it's the more interesting card of the two, for sure.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2018, 01:52:16 pm »
+2

Getting your hands on low complexity promos like... Governor (depends on what style of complexity she dislikes).
I agree with almost everything pops said, but Governor is not low-complexity in any way. I hate Governor, but mainly because I seem to be terrible with it.

Thank you so much. I thought I was the only one. Whenever Governor is on the board, I know I'm going to lose. I always botch the mega-turn, by failing to gain the last Province or screwing up the math somewhere else. In my opinion, it's by far the hardest card to use, and it rewards careful long-range planning more than any other card in the game.

It's a complicated card even when newbies are using it to do things like remodel Estates, gain Golds without remodeling them, etc, because it gives you three options, each of which lets the other players also do something.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2018, 04:26:03 pm »
0

Bustling Village doesn't make any sense if Settlers isn't in the Kingdom. I'm guessing it would be a very weak ; it might be balanced at .
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GendoIkari

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2018, 04:27:44 pm »
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I sometimes miss Settlers being a full pile of 10, such that you could really build a Settlers deck even when the Settlers were contested.

Wouldn't that just a weaker version of a Peddler deck?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 04:36:36 pm »
+1

I sometimes miss Settlers being a full pile of 10, such that you could really build a Settlers deck even when the Settlers were contested.

Wouldn't that just a weaker version of a Peddler deck?

It combos with things that can discard your Coppers for value. That’s the fun part.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2018, 05:11:20 pm »
+3

It might be balanced at .

So, like Port then?
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Awaclus

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2018, 05:56:22 pm »
0

It might be balanced at .

So, like Port then?

It would be worse than Port, but it would be fine at $5.
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weesh

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2018, 06:11:38 pm »
+2

My wife loves Dominion but hates complex or weird cards, she loves the simplicity of the base game and the further we go from that the less she likes it.

if i understand you correctly, it's ok to use other cards, as long as they are simple, and you don't slam tons of them at once at her.
I'd suggest getting guilds/cornucopia, and introducing the simpler cards from that, one at a time of course.

Guilds is probably the simplest most boring looking expansion, but I was shocked at how well the cards play, and the variety they add. coin tokens are easy to understand, and one of the coin cards has 6 total words. once she's got candlestick maker and baker and plaza down, there's a smaller complexity leap to the other coin cards.

Also, there are a few easy to add cornucopia cards too.

Quote
I've been wondering if I could take some of the Heirlooms and split piles and buy more of them so as to make whole kingdom piles with them.

I think the obvious thing to do with the heirlooms is to put them into your starting ten, replacing a copper as normal, and just not using the card that it pairs with.  Adding goat doesn't add barely any complexity, if you leave the pixie behind, and you'll never think "this is weird without pixie".

I also don't see a problem with including a half pile.  You want to use just the 5 settlers as a stack?  why not?  I wouldn't buy an entire extra empires to fill out that stack.

---

I think it's really easy to overdo the complexity in this game.  There's nothing wrong with just a splash of 1-2 new cards.  The game is much more relaxing when you aren't overwhelmed.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 06:16:34 pm by weesh »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2018, 11:53:57 pm »
0

It might be balanced at .

So, like Port then?

It would be worse than Port, but it would be fine at $5.

Are you saying that Port is so strong that it would be strong even at ?
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Awaclus

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2018, 02:06:04 am »
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It might be balanced at .

So, like Port then?

It would be worse than Port, but it would be fine at $5.

Are you saying that Port is so strong that it would be strong even at ?

Yes.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2018, 08:50:07 am »
+2

It might be balanced at .

So, like Port then?

It would be worse than Port, but it would be fine at $5.

Are you saying that Port is so strong that it would be strong even at ?

Yes.

I don't have the experience to form my own opinion, but I can sort of see it intuitively... the base set already had a card that functioned almost identically, but it cost , and 2 buys instead of 1.
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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2018, 09:36:07 am »
+5

Port works at $4 because there are only 6 “copies” of it and it’s a card you don’t usually want right away. So it has the extra “cost” that you need to buy them before your deck really wants them, or risk not getting enough.

If there were 20 copies of Port in the pile, I bet it would have ended up costing $5.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:37:30 am by LastFootnote »
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weesh

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2018, 10:54:12 am »
0

Port works at $4 because there are only 6 “copies” of it and it’s a card you don’t usually want right away. So it has the extra “cost” that you need to buy them before your deck really wants them, or risk not getting enough.

If there were 20 copies of Port in the pile, I bet it would have ended up costing $5.

Case 1: both players want port.
There is a cost, but there is also a benefit because if am aggressive with ports, then my opponent is also forced to be aggressive with them.

Case 2: only one player wants port.
It isn't a cost at all in this case because your opponent isn't applying any pressure on you to get them early.

I suspect that the bigger problem would be ports costed at 5$ could make it tougher to get what you need, since 4$ is so much easier to hit.
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MattLee

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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2018, 10:29:38 am »
0

I looked into buying Guilds/Cornucopia and places want $70 for it! Must be out of print for some reason? I'll grab it when the price comes back down, thanks for everyones suggestions!
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Re: Heirlooms and split piles as full kindoms piles?
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2018, 10:35:54 am »
0

The other thing about Port is that its special ability only fires if you buy it, and $4 Villages are at their most powerful when you can gain them.
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