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Author Topic: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel  (Read 2780 times)

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Robz888

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2018, 04:36:48 pm »
0

I also love Tunnel, but I think it's ludicrous to say it's too good, or under-priced.
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trivialknot

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2018, 05:30:18 pm »
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Next question: what card is the best enabler? Personally, I think it is Dungeon, but what do you guys think?
I think Embassy/Tunnel is one of the best synergies, enabling a strong strategy just by themselves.
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Chris is me

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2018, 06:23:10 pm »
+1

Storeroom is one of the better Tunnel enablers, in that you get to search up to 8 cards from a starting hand of 5 and discard any number of them
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crj

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2018, 06:23:46 pm »
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I've never seen them turn up in the same game, but I'd have expected Storeroom to be the best Tunnel enabler. Especially as, unlike something like Embassy, you can afford it without having to build up any economy besides the Gold you get from discarding Tunnels.

[Drat - ninja!]
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Holunder9

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2018, 08:37:12 pm »
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Assuming normal starting hands and a net draw of x cards before the play of each respective card, Dungeon discards out of 12+x, Storeroom out of 8+2x and Embassy out of 9+x cards.
Neither Storeroom nor Dungeon can be used to increase handsize but Embassy can so you could argue that the number for Embassy could be higher.
I still think that Dungeon is the clear winner, especially as Dungeon+Tunnel is a feasible opening.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 08:48:58 pm by Holunder9 »
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ConMan

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2018, 08:39:26 pm »
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Whereas I suspect that Storeroom is still the strongest enabler, even if you open double Storeroom and then get Tunnels after that. The +Buy is pretty important.
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Holunder9

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2018, 08:55:39 pm »
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Whereas I suspect that Storeroom is still the strongest enabler, even if you open double Storeroom and then get Tunnels after that. The +Buy is pretty important.
I don't know, Tunnel for Gold seems to be more of a money game thing and without net draw you can only hit $12 with Storeroom. But of course the Buy (and the quicker cycling, this might situationally be more important) could compensate for Dungeon's non-terminality and larger search depth.
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faust

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2018, 02:31:36 am »
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Storeroom is one of the better Tunnel enablers, in that you get to search up to 8 cards from a starting hand of 5 and discard any number of them
If we are going just by search space:
- Embassy searches 9
- Dungeon searches 13 (6 from current hand + 7 from next hand)
And on top of that, both are cards you'd actually want in a money deck.

In the opening, I'd argue that Young Witch/Tunnel is actually one of the strongest.
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aku_chi

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2018, 09:04:57 am »
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Dungeon is the strongest Tunnel enabler (at least, it's fastest to 5-6 Provinces).  Storeroom is also pretty great.
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crj

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2018, 09:51:15 am »
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Is that a conclusion based on simulator work?

I can quite believe Dungeon is best in a Tunnel+X+big_money strategy that includes no other cards because, as noted, Dungeon will continue to be useful as you green.

But there are lots of other cards which will spice up a Tunnel+Storeroom deck. My hunch is that in most kingdoms you'd be able to build something better based around Tunnel+Storeroom than Tunnel+Dungeon.
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faust

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2018, 10:05:54 am »
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But there are lots of other cards which will spice up a Tunnel+Storeroom deck. My hunch is that in most kingdoms you'd be able to build something better based around Tunnel+Storeroom than Tunnel+Dungeon.
I cannot think of any cards that would work with Tunnel/Storeroom that wouldn't also be at least as good with Dungeon.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

markusin

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2018, 10:16:19 am »
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But there are lots of other cards which will spice up a Tunnel+Storeroom deck. My hunch is that in most kingdoms you'd be able to build something better based around Tunnel+Storeroom than Tunnel+Dungeon.
I cannot think of any cards that would work with Tunnel/Storeroom that wouldn't also be at least as good with Dungeon.

Storeroom is terminal and Dungeon is not. That already gives a huge edge to Dungeon in terms of working with other cards.

Another classic synergy is Tunnel + Young Witch. Less search space than Storeroom but you get a curser.
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crj

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2018, 10:25:05 am »
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Anyone got the simulator-fu to work out how soon, on average you first get a $5 hand when opening Tunnel/Dungeon compared with Tunnel/Storeroom?

Yes, I see the +1 Action on Dungeon. But what if, say, Storeroom lets you buy Laboratory one shuffle sooner?
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Limetime

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2018, 10:55:49 am »
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scouting party-tunnel is strongest. on a 3/4 you can get 2 golds turn 2
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crj

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2018, 10:59:01 am »
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I can see Tunnel + Scouting Party being impressively quick, but I'm not seeing quite how it's that quick!

Am I being dense; can you spell it out?
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faust

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2018, 11:04:17 am »
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Anyone got the simulator-fu to work out how soon, on average you first get a $5 hand when opening Tunnel/Dungeon compared with Tunnel/Storeroom?
I don't want to work on this really, but I doubt it makes much of a difference. Would be a different thing if Storeroom could give you a $5 hand on shuffle 2, but it can't. And there are not really many relevant $5s anyway. You mention Lab. But the Dungeon/Tunnel player doesn't even want Lab; another Dungeon or Tunnel will almost always be preferable. And neither is Lab great for Storeroom because it will be drawn dead 50% of the time.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2018, 11:07:54 am »
+1

I can see Tunnel + Scouting Party being impressively quick, but I'm not seeing quite how it's that quick!

Am I being dense; can you spell it out?
T1: buy Tunnel
T2: buy Scouting Party (reshuffle your discard which is now 3C, 2E, Tunnel), hopefully draw Tunnel & discard. Buy another Scouting party, drawing the 2 cards you put on your deck, another card, and reshuffle again. Now you have 2 more shots to draw the Tunnel again and being able to discard it. The chances of that happening are 5/6*2/4 = 5/12, so not even too bad.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

crj

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Re: Lets discuss hinterlands cards:tunnel
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2018, 11:47:51 am »
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Aha, gotcha. I thought you were talking about it being a dead cert!
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