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somekindoftony

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Dominion: Metropolis
« on: March 13, 2018, 12:19:49 am »
+1

Metropolis

The theme of the set is about playing around with the supply, gaining cards without buying them (which also depletes the supply), and cards which depend on their being either depleted or non-depleted supply piles. This is meant to emulate the notion of a huge urban environment which is depleting its raw resources and markets while growing its infrastructure.

Defaced Coin $2
Treasure
$1
During clean up trash this and up to two other treasures you have in play.

Recycle $2
Action
+ 1 card, discard a card.
Return a card in your discard pile to the supply.


Market Stall $2
Action
+$2
+$1 for each empty supply pile.

Broker $3
Action
+1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy
Choose one: Either trash an Action card in the supply or return an Action card from the trash to the supply.

Shadow Council $3
Action – Attack
+2 Actions.
If there is another Shadow Council in play each other player gains a curse.

Hawkers Village $3
Action
Whenever you gain a Hawkers Village without buying it, +1 Card and +1 Action.
_____________________________________________________________
+1 Action, Gain a Hawkers Village.

Doomsayer $4
Action
Whenever you gain a Doomsayer without buying it, +2 Cards and +1 Action
_______________________________________________________________
Gain a Doomsayer. Discard a card.


Penitents $4
Victory
2 VP +2VP if your deck has less than 20 cards.
Whenever you buy this you may gain a Blessing.

Blessing 0*
Action
*This card is not in the supply.
+2 Cards. Trash up to 2 cards in your hand.
Your opponents may chose to either draw 2 cards or trash up to 2 cards in their hand.

Extravaganza $4
Action.
+1 Buy.
Choose an action in your hand. Play that action once for each supply pile with three or less remaining cards.

Theatre Village $4
+1 card for each supply pile with three or less remaining cards.
+2 actions.


Dismissal $4
Action - Reaction
Return up to two cards in your hand or discard pile to the supply.
________________________________________

If this card is returned to the supply gain 2 golds.

Inventor $5
Action
Whenever you gain an Inventor without buying it; You may trash a card in your hand. Gain a card costing up to 2 more than the trashed card.
_______________________________________________________________
Gain an Inventor or any card costing up to 4.


Banquet $5
Action
For every action card you have in play (including this) +$2.


Merchants Pass $5
Treasure
+2 Buys
$3
You must use all your buys if possible.

Poisoner $5
Action - Attack
Whenever you gain a Poisoner without buying it; Each other player gains a curse.
_______________________________________________________________
Gain a Poisoner. Each other player reveals the top card of their library and discards it unless it is a curse.


Token of Fame $5
Treasure
When you play this gain a Token of Fame
$3 or $0 if there are no Token of Fame cards left in the supply.

Founding Families $6.
Victory - Reaction
2 VP for every each non-victory supply pile with three or less remaining cards.
__________________________________________________________________
Whenever any other player gains a treasure you may discard a Founding Families from your hand to gain a copy of that treasure.

Investor $6
Action
Whenever you gain an Investor without buying it; Gain a Gold into your hand.
_______________________________________________________________
Gain an Investor.

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somekindoftony

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2018, 12:29:34 am »
0

I should have said... I really need fresh eyes on these. Happy to hear if people see cards as broken or underpowered (or both?).
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 03:39:52 am »
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Banquet is crazy and can easily lead to a double digit number of coins in an engine. Even 1 Coin per Action card in play could be broken.
While the pile isn't empty yet Doomsayer is a Fugitive that gains itself. This is pretty good for $4 but once the pile is empty the card is worse than dead. I don't think that this is any good.
I also have doubts about the idea on Poisoner. In a 2P game player A ends up with 10 Poisoners and player B with 10 Curses. Same with Investor and Hawker's Village.

The gain-itself thingy does work on Inventor though, not at least due to the second option.

Defaced Coin and Recycle seem to work although they are not the most exciting trashers.
Market Stall also seems to work but I like the idea better on Gladiator.
Broker's secondary effect doesn't matter unless there is Lurker or the respective Dark Ages cards in the Kingdom plus for pile control in the endgame.
I like Penitents and Extravaganza seems like a cool TR variant.
Dismissal looks like a better Treasure Map.
I like the copper self-junking penalty on it but overall Merchants Pass is probably weaker than Courtier.
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faust

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2018, 05:51:51 am »
+1

Some comments.

Defaced Coin - I think Bonfire does what this wants to do in a more interesting manner. It also seems a bit weak compared to other $2 trashers like Raze or Ratcatcher.

Recycle - This card can probably work; its search space is pretty big and makes it work a bit like Hermit. I think this is fine.

Market Stall - Probably okay, yet a bit bland.

Broker - a large amount of the time it's just Market Square without the reaction. Since the additional ability is quite narrow, I'd make the top bit something that doesn't already exist.

Shadow Council - this will lead to terrible games.

Hawkers Village - I am not convinced about all the cards that gain themselves. They just end up being dead and especially Village is an effect you want often and this gives you at most 9 Village effects which isn't much help really.

Doomsayer - This may be okay to pick up in the late game, but that is the only tiem I see it being good, and that makes for a pretty narrow card.

Penitents/Blessing - I think Cemetery does the "Victory card that trashes" theme better. I think decks that want to have this and are able to profit from the additional +VP basically don't exist.

Extravaganza - Fewer. That aside, keeping track of this may be difficult. If the card you play brings down a supply pile, does that grant you another play? I'm not sure this is worth it often enough as you only add it very late in building - thus unlike Throne Room, it can't be an engine component in itself, it only supports and existing engine.

Theatre Village - Problem is again that you want splitters early, but this only is any good some time later. Which is fine for some card, but this set seem to have a lot of them and a kingdom heavy with these cards will be uninteresting.

Dismissal - not sure if the dividing line is really necessary. Other than that it seems pretty good, albeit maybe a bit too easy. Just pick two of these up, "trash" your deck, and in the end you even get economy back. It may be too strong.

Inventor - the self-gain thing may work here. I would consider ramping the cost up to $6 so you can Invent an Inventor into a Province.

Banquet - an event with that name already exists. Also it seems bonkers strong. Should be at least "differently named" and even then it is cwazy.

Merchants Pass - it's like a mixture of Cache and Contraband. I like it, but it may be a bit on the weak side.

Poisoner - I don't think this is any good. You're junking yourself as much as your opponents, so it will only ever be worth it with TfB. And then it depletes piles super fast.

Token of Fame - This is interesting as an idea, but I don't think very good. It likes Big Money, but it also likes decks with endgame control and these two things are at odds. Also at $5 it has tough competition from Gold, so maybe it will be better costing $4.

Founding Families - *Stannis Baratheon face* Fewer. The reaction hardly helps this as Treasure piles will hardly go down to 3 or less. I don't think it's very interesting as alt VP as it will always give the same amount of VP to all players, so it's not really worth it to build towards it.

Investor - This is one of the self-gainers I don't like. If it's good, it leads to super boring games with Gold floods. If it's bad, then well noone will ever want to buy it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 05:55:04 am by faust »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 08:48:18 am »
0

Merchants Pass is going to require some rules clarifications. Do you have to:

a) Arrange all of your buys in such a way that you have used them all (if any such arrangement was possible) OR

b) After buying, if you still have a buy and a card you can afford, you must buy.

For example.. you have exactly , 2 buys, and both Coppers and Curses are gone. Are you allowed to buy a Province?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2018, 12:44:43 pm »
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Merchants Pass is going to require some rules clarifications. Do you have to:

a) Arrange all of your buys in such a way that you have used them all (if any such arrangement was possible) OR

b) After buying, if you still have a buy and a card you can afford, you must buy.

For example.. you have exactly , 2 buys, and both Coppers and Curses are gone. Are you allowed to buy a Province?

I always disliked the concept of punishing people for leftover buys. Buys already are the vanilla bonus with the highest variance, ranging from being completely useless to being absolutely crucial, whereas the other bonuses are practically always useful (Village idiots aside). Any buy after the second is already a wast most of the time, too.

Anyhow, I see here buys are an inherent drawback of a card that provides them. I feel that's a better approach overall. Still, as Gendo said, the rules questions are an issue.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2018, 10:42:19 pm »
0

Thanks for the extensive feedback.

My intention for Merchants Pass was GendoIkari's option b. "After buying, if you still have a buy and a card you can afford, you must buy."
So if you get to a point in which you have no money and there are no 0 cost cards to buy you don't have to buy anything.  I can see the ambiguity raised but not sure how to fix it. I'll go through the rest of the cards in order.

Defaced Coin - Probably a fairer comparison than the 2 cost action trashers would be to Monastery as it costs no action or Loan as it also generates $1. I personally like the way it is one use only. Play with two coppers, buy a silver and you have a nice effect on your deck that you don't have to bother with again.

Recycle - The return to supply rather than trash is key here. In a game with Witches it could just prolong the pain or give you a curse to give back. It also has synergy with the gainers (what I'll call the cards that gain themselves for brevity's sake.).

Market stall - I agree with the meh assessment but I wanted to keep cards as simple as possible. It can be worth $6 so I think it's certainly up there with Poor House or Fools Gold depending on whats around it. I just realised I wrote this card to give +$1 for each empty supply and meant it to be +$2. Too strong?

Broker - I'd like to keep the choose one ability but happy to lose the rest.  The following version would also let you trash or return curses which could either defend or enable a curser. I want to prevent Salt the Earth but maybe I shouldn't?

Broker $3
Choose one: +2 cards or +2 actions,
Choose one: Trash a non-victory card in the supply or return a card from the trash to the supply.

Shadow Council - I don't think its anywhere near as strong as people think. Its generally like drawing a Shanty Town at the wrong time until you have an engine up and running. If there are ways of dealing with curses and any other way of gaining actions this is a trap card that will punish the person who buys it.

INTERLUDE: This idea of a trap card is really the secret theme for this set and owes a lot to rats as an inspiration. I like the idea that in this set you want to beware the cards you buy in the same way that rats works. I am sensing that people don't see the benefits as enough to outweigh the risks for some cards and hear this isn't appropriate for card types like villages. See Hawkers Village, and Investor....

Hawkers Village - Yeah. What I've put here is awful. Would I buy it over village? Probably not even in a two player game and definitely not in a four player game. Terrible in my own opinion. Sorry. So how about something that helps with the rats like cards rather than being one;
Hawkers  Village $3
Discard a card, +1 card.
If the discarded card cost three or more +$2.
If the discarded card was an action card +2 actions.

(Fried rat anyone?)

Doomsayer - I want to keep this in because I think all you need is a remodel, scavenger or bishop and this card becomes spectacularly good. That's bad design - to rely on other cards being in the kingdom - but I think even on its own its not terrible. It's name is a good warning though. This dude brings down the party. You might be tempted to remodel into it too or workshop for it just for the gainer benefits.

Pentitents/Blessing. - One thing I forgot to mention is that I intend that you'd play with only as many blessings as there are players. I can't imagine anyone wanting more than one and they are intended to be a bit of a strategic pick that you might want to forego. Penitents doesn't fascinate me especially but I think its pretty well balanced; either a 2VP or a 4VP for one less than a duchy. Maybe 20 is too few cards though. Hard to achieve.

Extravaganza - Oh boy the rules headaches I didn't predict with this one. Thanks faust for picking that up. I really dislike cards that lead to rules confusion. The options I can think of are all more boring. Anyone know how to deal with the problem faust raised? The buy on this card btw is to enable pile emptying. The capacity to out kings court, kings court makes it worthy of its name. If it can be saved from rules confusion I would see this as potentially as much of a card to work towards enabling as City or Kings court.

Theatre Village - I like it for its simplicity but even I'm not hugely impressed. It could easily be a dead card that no-one wants in a number of games. Happy to drop it. Not sure what to replace it with. The set needs a simple village.

Dismissal - Way too strong, I agree. Thanks for pointing that out. I was probably being too pessimistic about having one in your hand and one in your deck. Would people see it as too strong/weak if you gained a card costing up to five when the card is returned to the supply instead of the two golds? Dismissal a Dismissal into an Inventor for a turn of deck thinning.

Inventor - I like it at Five myself. There isn't meant to be an easy path through this set to victory without buying some money making actions or treasures. 5 feels right for what is a pseudo fusion of remodel and workshop.

Banquet - I thought the risk of a terminal silver for $5 would be enough to make this balanced. People are probably right in saying its not.  I've played a number of games where this card would be worth $20 pretty consistently. Capping it feels inelegant though. Would it still be playable if it was reduced to $1 for each action in play? Then its like Bank but for actions, making the name "Bank-ette" funny. Except Banquet is taken as mentioned. So maybe Credit Union? In games which don't enable engines though its unviable.

Merchants Pass - see my first comments. Not sure how to word it.

Poisoner - Oh cmon. Its awesome. It's poisoning everything. Until everything is crap. It's like saboteur in its sheer awfulness. Functionally its perhaps more like Ill-Gotten Gains but I prefer it to Ill-Gotten Gains myself because at least you can defend against it and it requires an action. Imagine its on the board - Would you buy it? What sort of a person are you? OMG you would. How do you live with yourself?

Token of Fame - I agree its probably too weak. Its a 5 cost gold that gains itself but the drawback is just too harsh. What if it was worth $1 if its supply pile was empty? Or if it had "When you play this you may gain a Token of Fame." Which of those options would people prefer?


Founding Families - Appreciate the catch on fewer. I think this could be interesting as people have to decide if its going to be worth a lot or little depending on how the games going and there could be a race for them. Its like City in that way. In fact it could be worth a bucketload - Maybe even too much. Maybe it doesn't even need the reaction but I liked it. Its only mildly helpful as was pointed out but its still a little on theme. Real question; Is it balanced?

Investor - Yeah. I feel the meh. I don't like this anymore myself, which is funny because it was the first gainer I thought of. How about the following? These investors let you buy gold cheap but have no effect on provinces. Too weak for a 6 card or too strong? On one hand its $6 with a buy and up to 6 includes a lot of cards.

Investor $6
Action
+1 Buy.
Cards costing up to 6 cost you three less this turn.
 


« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 03:56:39 am by somekindoftony »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 03:22:13 am »
+1

"When this is in play, if there is any card you can buy, you may not end your buy phase."?
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2018, 06:19:14 am »
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both Coppers and Curses are gone
Happens only in Kingdoms in which Beggar, Gardens and a Curser is present.

About the copper self-junking, I I think LFN once had a similar idea.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 09:34:06 am »
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both Coppers and Curses are gone
Happens only in Kingdoms in which Beggar, Gardens and a Curser is present.

About the copper self-junking, I I think LFN once had a similar idea.

Or a kingdom with Counterfeit. You got 8$, Curses are empty, I name Copper thinking you now can't buy a Province.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 08:28:02 pm »
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Dismissal $4
Action - Reaction
Return up to two cards in your hand or discard pile to the supply.
________________________________________

If Dismissal is returned to the supply gain a card costing up to 5 from the supply.


I'm just wondering - do I have the wording of this right here. Does it know who is gaining the 4 cost card (the previous owner of Dismissal is who it should be) or does it lose track of that? It seems identical to Hunting Grounds so I assume no problems.
I also think this version becomes quite useful to the set. You can Dismiss a Dismissal to gain a Doomsayer and then return your excess Doomsayers later rather than be choked with them. And returning them to the supply makes gaining them useful again.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 08:32:53 pm by somekindoftony »
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ConMan

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2018, 09:20:48 pm »
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Dismissal $4
Action - Reaction
Return up to two cards in your hand or discard pile to the supply.
________________________________________

If Dismissal is returned to the supply gain a card costing up to 5 from the supply.


I'm just wondering - do I have the wording of this right here. Does it know who is gaining the 4 cost card (the previous owner of Dismissal is who it should be) or does it lose track of that? It seems identical to Hunting Grounds so I assume no problems.
I also think this version becomes quite useful to the set. You can Dismiss a Dismissal to gain a Doomsayer and then return your excess Doomsayers later rather than be choked with them. And returning them to the supply makes gaining them useful again.
You should say "If you return Dismissal to the supply, ...". Otherwise, the wording here suggests that *every* player gains a card from the supply.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Metropolis
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2018, 03:57:21 pm »
0

Hi, I like some ideas here but think they need a little more work. Here's some random thoughts, sorry if they're incoherent or if I can't read and misunderstood something.

Defaced Coin: Yeah this is just like a bad Bonfire, I think it'd be better as a Silver for $3 or $4 to make it play a little differently. I'd probably like it if Bonfire didn't exist, but it's hard to compete with an Event because they don't take up a kingdom card slot.

Recycle: The "Re" prefix makes this sound like a Remodel variant. It's clever that this discards a card so it can still trash from the hand and also works with an empty discard. It's probably quite weak and I'm guessing that returning to the supply is a theme of the set errr yes it is I read the intro now. I'd prefer seeing things that actually have a reason to return things to the supply other than "it's the theme of the set" you know, like what Ambassador does.

Market Stall: Money! It's quite a lot of time until this becomes better than Silver. Oh it's supposed to get +$2 per empty? That seems a little better. Market cards are supposed to give +buy though so I'd suggest a name change.

Broker: Its just the top part of Market Square that makes endgame piling a nightmare to track, I don't know about that. Oh there's a new one, I think the thing with this is that the supply trashing ability is weak enough as to not really make the card stronger so if you really want it just staple it onto a simple-ish card you already have I'd say.

Shadow Council: Woop! Broken card! I think you're just underestimating how good Necropolis is to be honest. Like, just Necropolis for $3 would still be a good card that you would buy most of the time even though it's "strictly worse" than a bunch of other cards. You're going to buy these anyway because they give +2 Actions and then give out a bunch of Curses for almost no opportunity cost.

Hawkers Village: Oh there's a new one of these too, I actually have to read the thread eww. Eh I'm not sure about this, it's either a really bad village or a terminal Silver, in both cases making you discard a good card to draw a random card, which seems like a drawback. So it seems even worse than Necropolis as a village and worse than Silver as money.

Doomsayer: Shouldn't this give out Hexes? So a Fugitive that gains more Fugitives and then they become blanks, seems like it's broken with trash for benefit and useless without?

Penitents/Blessing: This does seem a little weak, like Blessing is strong- a super Masq! But having to take a Penitents with it is a downside and then Blessing also gives your opponent a hefty amount of free draw/trashing, I'm not sure it really needs that 2nd downside?

Extravaganza: Hmmmmm, this takes a while to build up but when it does the game will just end. I can see this leading to very degenerate games where you have to play around piles from really early in the game when there are gainers on the board. Like with a Workshop, once 3 piles get low enough one player will just be able to get them to 3 with workshops and then King everything but actually they can king more workshops and deplete more piles and then just like empty the supply and play everything 10 times. I don't know, seems like it'll lead to degenerate games pretty often. Also tracking nightmare.

Theatre Village: It's probably fine but maybe a bit similar to City? I'm not sure whether this 3 or fewer thing is sufficiently different from just counting empty piles to be worth the trouble.

Dismissal: Needs to let you look through your discard pile, like Hermit/Settlers and friends. Seems very strong, probably a little worse than Remake overall, but not that much worse at all, trashing from the discard is very good. Dismissing a Dismissal for a $5 is a little like Remaking a Remake too.

Inventor: I like this the most out of these self gaining things because it actually gives you something to do with the cards you're gaining and it isn't completely dead when they run out.

Banquet: Way too easy to break. Like even in an average engine this will easily make $10+ and it's useless outside of those decks. I think Horn of Plenty captures this concept in a much more reasonable way.

Merchants Pass: Ignoring rules questions, this is just Gold with 2 buys a lot of the time. I don't think the drawback will ever really come into play unless your building inefficiently anyway.

Poisoner: This is a weaker Sea hag that costs $5? I would only buy this if there was Apprentice or something.

Token of Fame: I'm usually buying $5 actions over Gold so I doubt I'd get this ever. Unless again there's a strong trash for benefit card.

Investor: Same again, I don't think this is a great concept anyway and even if it was do you really need more than 1 card that does it?
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