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Author Topic: Why Dominion Sucks!  (Read 1164 times)

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Kirian

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Why Dominion Sucks!
« on: March 11, 2018, 03:22:06 pm »
+7

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Fuu

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2018, 03:48:22 pm »
0

If this is the first time you have read this thread, +$(Integer.MAX_VALUE).
---
When scoring, divide by the number of Provinces in the supply.
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Gazbag

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2018, 03:57:00 pm »
+10

Actually being serious for a second, after 1000's of games I've discovered two major bugs in dominion.

BUG 1: The starting player has a huge advantage. In roughly 100% of the games I've lost as player 2 have been because my opponent got an extra turn than me. When both player's skill is similar this happens too often.

BUG 2: More often than in most games, the more games I play the more I've found that, when two player's skill are equal, the game comes down to good strategy and tactical play much less. After 100's of games, I think it's more down to luck.

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AJD

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 04:22:41 pm »
0

BUG 2: More often than in most games, the more games I play the more I've found that, when two player's skill are equal, the game comes down to good strategy and tactical play much less. After 100's of games, I think it's more down to luck.

Isn't that, like, a tautology?
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Skumpy

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 04:33:20 pm »
+8

Actually being serious for a second, after 1000's of games I've discovered two major bugs in dominion.

BUG 1: The starting player has a huge advantage. In roughly 100% of the games I've lost as player 2 have been because my opponent got an extra turn than me. When both player's skill is similar this happens too often.

BUG 2: More often than in most games, the more games I play the more I've found that, when two player's skill are equal, the game comes down to good strategy and tactical play much less. After 100's of games, I think it's more down to luck.

Because a lot of people aren't going to get the joke:
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2866.0
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 05:22:03 pm by Skumpy »
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Kirian

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 05:04:31 pm »
0

Actually being serious for a second, after 1000's of games I've discovered two major bugs in dominion.

BUG 1: The starting player has a huge advantage. In roughly 100% of the games I've lost as player 2 have been because my opponent got an extra turn than me. When both player's skill is similar this happens too often.

BUG 2: More often than in most games, the more games I play the more I've found that, when two player's skill are equal, the game comes down to good strategy and tactical play much less. After 100's of games, I think it's more down to luck.

Because a lot of people aren't going to get the joke:
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?PHPSESSID=32a1f3e2d44d645e4515b5c6cac3918f&topic=2866.msg12671#new

OIC
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weesh

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 06:21:32 pm »
+4

being ACTUALLY serious, this game has a LOT of shuffling.
It's probably the biggest annoyance of the game to me, though not a big enough deal to actually want to play online.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 06:31:45 pm »
+20

being ACTUALLY serious, this game has a LOT of shuffling.
It's probably the biggest annoyance of the game to me, though not a big enough deal to actually want to play online.

Thatís why I pay someone to ShuffleiT for me.
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theblankman

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 10:14:25 pm »
+2

As someone who plays exclusively rated automatch, meaning random kingdoms, I think the biggest bug in Dominion is Silver and Gold. Having those always available means there's a playable strategy on every possible kingdom, and I say that's a bug because most random kingdoms, while technically playable, are pretty boring. What I like about Dominion is fitting a lot of the kingdom into my deck and finding new ways to combine cards. If the game had been designed without the basic treasures, you'd have to make sure the game is playable with decks of only kingdom cards. So there would have to be some rules about building kingdoms (not full random), and more importantly, card design would have to favor cards that fit with all kinds of other cards, and disfavor cards that make bad to buy other kingdom cards.
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

Kirian

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2018, 12:31:27 am »
0

As someone who plays exclusively rated automatch, meaning random kingdoms, I think the biggest bug in Dominion is Silver and Gold. Having those always available means there's a playable strategy on every possible kingdom, and I say that's a bug because most random kingdoms, while technically playable, are pretty boring. What I like about Dominion is fitting a lot of the kingdom into my deck and finding new ways to combine cards. If the game had been designed without the basic treasures, you'd have to make sure the game is playable with decks of only kingdom cards. So there would have to be some rules about building kingdoms (not full random), and more importantly, card design would have to favor cards that fit with all kinds of other cards, and disfavor cards that make bad to buy other kingdom cards.

I think you're incorrect on this score.  While there will certainly be some boards where some version of Big Money is a good play, most good players feel it's extremely rare.  To the point where people have classified Embassy's Silver "gift" as an attack in some cases.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2018, 02:11:58 am »
0

As someone who plays exclusively rated automatch, meaning random kingdoms, I think the biggest bug in Dominion is Silver and Gold. Having those always available means there's a playable strategy on every possible kingdom, and I say that's a bug because most random kingdoms, while technically playable, are pretty boring. What I like about Dominion is fitting a lot of the kingdom into my deck and finding new ways to combine cards. If the game had been designed without the basic treasures, you'd have to make sure the game is playable with decks of only kingdom cards. So there would have to be some rules about building kingdoms (not full random), and more importantly, card design would have to favor cards that fit with all kinds of other cards, and disfavor cards that make bad to buy other kingdom cards.

I think you're incorrect on this score.  While there will certainly be some boards where some version of Big Money is a good play, most good players feel it's extremely rare.  To the point where people have classified Embassy's Silver "gift" as an attack in some cases.

Theblankman didn't say anything about big money. He only spoke against the game favoring full random kingdoms because designed* kingdoms are often more interesting. I agree.

Having silver and gold in every game means the following kingdom is still 'playable':



If silver and gold were not in every game, you'd have to invent the estate rush to play this board. blankman was just saying that silver and gold made it feasible to play full random kingdoms all the time.

(*And designed here doesn't have to mean every kingdom card is chosen specifically. Maybe just make sure there's some kind of trashing and a village or something like that.)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 02:35:24 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Gazbag

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 11:27:22 am »
0

Gold and Silver don't stop you from designing kingdoms though.
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theblankman

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 12:40:30 pm »
+1

Gold and Silver don't stop you from designing kingdoms though.

As someone who plays exclusively rated automatch
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

hypercube

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2018, 12:46:41 pm »
+3

If you want to play designed kingdoms you should uh stop playing exclusively rated automatch.
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tripwire

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2018, 01:09:17 pm »
+2

If you want to play designed kingdoms you should uh stop playing exclusively rated automatch.

Yeah, I feel like this is a "bug" of Dominion Online rather than Dominion the tabletop game. I think one of the best things Donald did was not be prescriptive about how to select kingdom cards. From the Dominion rules: "In later games, players can choose the 10 Kingdom cards using any method they agree on."

In other words, you might consider the presence of Silver and Gold as allowing for the possibility of full random, rather than limiting you to it.
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theblankman

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2018, 01:21:24 pm »
0

If you want to play designed kingdoms you should uh stop playing exclusively rated automatch.

Play online -> get better than IRL friends -> only decent competition is rated. I'm sure I'm not the only such person. Even Donald X acknowledged full random isn't good enough by advocating a ban list.

Anyway I don't want to play designed kingdoms. That would be broken online too, as we saw back in the Iso Masq pin days. I want something between random and designed that works for rated games. I posted one possibility here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18270.0
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Gazbag

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2018, 02:17:19 pm »
0

Gold and Silver don't stop you from designing kingdoms though.

As someone who plays exclusively rated automatch

If you want to play designed kingdoms you should uh stop playing exclusively rated automatch.



To actually add something to the discussion though, looking at your rating and considering how most people around that level play, it seems likely to me that you just aren't considering/exploiting a lot of the subtle interactions and such that exist between cards given that you're of the opinion that:
card design would have to favor cards that fit with all kinds of other cards, and disfavor cards that make bad to buy other kingdom cards.
Because cards are designed to be played with each other anyway so I don't really think anything would be different. Obviously not liking full random anyway and wanting partially seeded boards or whatever is fine, but Silver/Gold aren't the reason for this; as others have already said, at high level play Gold is only really bought under specific conditions which aren't particularly common and Silver is usually just bought as a means to hit $5.
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theblankman

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2018, 02:59:28 pm »
0

Silver/Gold are the reason it's possible to play any random board. If random boards were impossible, the game would've had to ship with standard ways to seed a board, which I think would be a positive difference by itself, and have positive knock-on effects on how cards were designed. Tacking on a board-seeding system now, to get away from random rated, would be nice but not as good.

But if we're at the point where my opinion is discounted because of my rating, the discussion is probably over.
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

LastFootnote

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 03:04:13 pm »
+4

Silver/Gold are the reason it's possible to play any random board. If random boards were impossible, the game would've had to ship with standard ways to seed a board, which I think would be a positive difference by itself, and have positive knock-on effects on how cards were designed. Tacking on a board-seeding system now, to get away from random rated, would be nice but not as good.

But if we're at the point where my opinion is discounted because of my rating, the discussion is probably over.

The way I see it is: Temporum did what you're describing, at got lots of flak for it. There are three necessary mechanics in it, and it's laid out such that each board has those three mechanics. And Dice Tower was all, "These cards feels too samey, bloo hoo hoo!"

I think Dominion does about as good a job as it can with making Kingdom cards more desirable than Silver and Gold. I do agree that it would be nice to have a mode online that e.g. pulls 5 cards from each of two random expansions, for folks who like to see more of the intra-set interactions. I wish Shuffle iT could somehow make that happen, but man they're so far behind with priorities that are so much greater (good animations, offline support, etc.).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 03:49:18 pm by LastFootnote »
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weesh

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 03:11:38 pm »
0

I wish Shuffle iT could somehow make that happen, but man they're so far behind with priorities that are so much greater (good animations, offline support, etc.).
having never played online, i can't tell if you are joking or not.
are the animations and offline support really such a big deal to you that you think that should be handled before giving you more tools to making interesting kingdoms?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2018, 03:12:57 pm »
+4

I wish Shuffle iT could somehow make that happen, but man they're so far behind with priorities that are so much greater (good animations, offline support, etc.).
having never played online, i can't tell if you are joking or not.
are the animations and offline support really such a big deal to you that you think that should be handled before giving you more tools to making interesting kingdoms?

Um, they're keeping large segments of the potential player base from buying into the game.

EDIT: Maybe I'm not being clear. When I say "animations", I'm not talking about sparkly bells and whistles. I'm saying that there are insufficient animations for being able to tell what's going on in the game; what cards are moving where. You have to read the log to follow along, and that's a problem.

And some people just want to play offline vs. bots. A lot of people want this, in fact. And after 14 months, this promised feature still isn't available.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 03:51:17 pm by LastFootnote »
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Gazbag

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2018, 03:41:56 pm »
0

Silver/Gold are the reason it's possible to play any random board. If random boards were impossible, the game would've had to ship with standard ways to seed a board, which I think would be a positive difference by itself, and have positive knock-on effects on how cards were designed. Tacking on a board-seeding system now, to get away from random rated, would be nice but not as good.

But if we're at the point where my opinion is discounted because of my rating, the discussion is probably over.

I'm not discounting it because of your rating, I'm discounting it because I don't agree. I just looked up your rating to get an idea of how you've been approaching the game.

The game could have shipped with a board-seeding system even with Silver and Gold, all that removing Silver and Gold would do is make random boards "unplayable" more often (I actually think they'd still be playable at least 60% of the time with all expansions- and that's a very conservative estimate). Silver and Gold just aren't all that important in your average game of Dominion.
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theblankman

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2018, 04:30:09 pm »
0

I'm not discounting it because of your rating, I'm discounting it because I don't agree. I just looked up your rating to get an idea of how you've been approaching the game.
Discounting an opinion because you disagree with it isn't any better. But if you want an idea how I approach the game: My current way of getting kingdoms I like against decent opponents is to resign automatches until I like a kingdom. Resigning half my games before turn 1 makes my rating pretty meaningless.
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Seprix

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2018, 04:40:42 pm »
0

I'm not discounting it because of your rating, I'm discounting it because I don't agree. I just looked up your rating to get an idea of how you've been approaching the game.
Discounting an opinion because you disagree with it isn't any better. But if you want an idea how I approach the game: My current way of getting kingdoms I like against decent opponents is to resign automatches until I like a kingdom. Resigning half my games before turn 1 makes my rating pretty meaningless.

Want to play 100 rated matches with Mountebank and 9 Kingdom Treasure cards? I like free wins.

In other news, F.DS cycle begins again.
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Gazbag

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Re: Why Dominion Sucks!
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2018, 04:41:16 pm »
+1

I'm not discounting it because of your rating, I'm discounting it because I don't agree. I just looked up your rating to get an idea of how you've been approaching the game.
Discounting an opinion because you disagree with it isn't any better. But if you want an idea how I approach the game: My current way of getting kingdoms I like against decent opponents is to resign automatches until I like a kingdom. Resigning half my games before turn 1 makes my rating pretty meaningless.

You're the one who first used the term "discounting" I was merely mirroring what you said, please don't make this into another wasted thread by going on meaningless tangents like that, nobody is interested.

Okay so you play rated games because your irl opponents aren't good enough or whatever, but you resign most of your games so your rating is lower than it should be... so your rated opponents aren't going to be very good either, that doesn't seem at all logical to me.

And let me say one more time that I don't mind that you'd prefer to play seeded boards than full random, I just think you're wrong to blame Silver and Gold on that.
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