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[Commodore Chuckles]

Non-terminal draw is a relatively simple concept: Handsize-increasers you can easily spam without needing villages. Based on their positions on the Qvist rankings, though, they actually seem to be some of the cards I least understand. Things that confuse me:

Laboratory - Lab gets trashed a lot. The main reason given is that "the draw is weak." Well, yes, it only increases your handsize by 1, but the fact that it combines drawing and non-terminality into a single card is huge. It seems to me that people are underestimating the number of Lab boards where there's either no villages or no terminal draw. In either of those cases Lab is a crucial card.

Even if there are both villages and draws, Lab is still likely to be really good. If the available villages or draws are weak, then Lab will remain the best option because of its consistency. If the villages or draws are good but expensive, then Lab might be the more economical option. In any case, Lab is still a valuable engine piece because of the consistency it provides. And yes, I know that Hunting Party is almost always better, but the chances of both cards appearing on the same board is miniscule.

Alchemist - This one possibly gets trashed even more than Lab. Yeah, it's expensive, but the Potion remains useful. The same arguments for Lab apply here: There might not be villages or terminal draws, or they might be weak. Whenever I don't go for this and my opponent does, I nearly always lose. The power and consistency of a top-decking Lab is very hard to beat. Maybe I just suck at building engines...

Den of Sin - I simply cannot understand why this is considered better than Lab. Yes, I'm aware of the amazing benefits: Gain to hand, can't be drawn dead, bigger hand at the very beginning. The fact remains, though, that if you're drawing your whole deck, which is something you should always try to do, you need two of these to do the same thing a single Lab does. In my experience playing with it, it's clearly inferior.

Caravan - I find it... a bit odd, or at least interesting, how similar this card is to Den of Sin but how it's nonetheless cheaper... and yet still considered overall worse. It's basically Den of Sin but one of the +1 cards gets moved to this turn instead of the next, and yeah, all those other aforementioned side benefits are removed as well. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think Caravan is super strong, and it's clearly worse than Den of Sin disregarding price. I guess I find it interesting that +2 cards this turn and +2 cards next turn are BOTH considered better than +1 card this turn and next turn. I guess draw is something you don't want to spread out?

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

Lost City - Lost City is great... but is it that much better than Vanillab? +2 actions is always good, but it's often going to matter less if you're already drawing a good chunk of your deck without terminal draw... which is what Lost City does. So is the village effect overall worth the on-gain penalty? I think it usually is, but I'm puzzled as to why this is so MUCH more highly regarded than Lab.

[Mic Qsenoch]

In practice, everyone buys all of these cards all the time, who cares what some list says.

[fisherman]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

[terminalCopper]

Caravan [...] is basically Den of Sin [...] all those other aforementioned side benefits are removed as well.

This sounds to me like if you were underestimating the value of early speed-ups. It is far more than a side benefit if a card can be useful a whole shuffle earlier; the gap between gain-to-hand and play-next-shuffle is comparable to the gap between a T3 chapel and a T5 chapel.

[Chase Adolphson]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

[Jack Rudd]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Meh. Even when I do want to keep my treasures around, I don't normally want to have them in hand until the end of my turn, after I've done all my drawing. Discarding them to Stables or Plaza is no great hardship.

[Dingan]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Except in the case when you get rid of a bad card.

[Gazbag]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Except in the case when you get rid of a bad card.

Or in the case when you have no get riddable cards.

[GendoIkari]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Do you... do you think that Coppers are good cards?

[ackmondual]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

I've discarded a Copper to draw:
Copper
Estate
Platinum

Can't do that with Labs 

[Chase Adolphson]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Do you... do you think that Coppers are good cards?

No, I don't. But there's a thing called trashing all your coppers which is what I do. So then I have good cards that I don't want to discard.

[GendoIkari]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Do you... do you think that Coppers are good cards?

No, I don't. But there's a thing called trashing all your coppers which is what I do. So then I have good cards that I don't want to discard.

If you trashed all your Coppers, you very likely trashed all your Estates as well. This means that any cards in your deck should either be A) Silvers or B) Better than Silvers. Thus, discarding a Silver to draw the next 3 cards in your deck should be, on average, better than drawing just the next 2 cards while keeping that Silver, because that third card should be better than Silver.

Also, you aren't usually going to have trashed all your Coppers right away (not all games have Chapel or Donate). For many turns, you'll still have Coppers to discard. In general, you want Treasures at the end of your turn, not during your action phase. That Silver in your hand is worthless now; you'd rather draw it later. If you're able to draw your deck, then discarding the Silver (or even Gold or Platinum!) now means a better chance of drawing the action cards you need in order to draw through your deck. You'll end up playing those Silvers anyway.

[Chase Adolphson]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Do you... do you think that Coppers are good cards?

No, I don't. But there's a thing called trashing all your coppers which is what I do. So then I have good cards that I don't want to discard.

If you trashed all your Coppers, you very likely trashed all your Estates as well. This means that any cards in your deck should either be A) Silvers or B) Better than Silvers. Thus, discarding a Silver to draw the next 3 cards in your deck should be, on average, better than drawing just the next 2 cards while keeping that Silver, because that third card should be better than Silver.

Also, you aren't usually going to have trashed all your Coppers right away (not all games have Chapel or Donate). For many turns, you'll still have Coppers to discard. In general, you want Treasures at the end of your turn, not during your action phase. That Silver in your hand is worthless now; you'd rather draw it later. If you're able to draw your deck, then discarding the Silver (or even Gold or Platinum!) now means a better chance of drawing the action cards you need in order to draw through your deck. You'll end up playing those Silvers anyway.

Wow! You just totally changed my mind about that card. I actually really like it now.

[pacovf]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Do you... do you think that Coppers are good cards?

No, I don't. But there's a thing called trashing all your coppers which is what I do. So then I have good cards that I don't want to discard.

If you trashed all your Coppers, you very likely trashed all your Estates as well. This means that any cards in your deck should either be A) Silvers or B) Better than Silvers. Thus, discarding a Silver to draw the next 3 cards in your deck should be, on average, better than drawing just the next 2 cards while keeping that Silver, because that third card should be better than Silver.

Also, you aren't usually going to have trashed all your Coppers right away (not all games have Chapel or Donate). For many turns, you'll still have Coppers to discard. In general, you want Treasures at the end of your turn, not during your action phase. That Silver in your hand is worthless now; you'd rather draw it later. If you're able to draw your deck, then discarding the Silver (or even Gold or Platinum!) now means a better chance of drawing the action cards you need in order to draw through your deck. You'll end up playing those Silvers anyway.

This is true, but it also assumes that your deck has enough Treasure in it that activating your Stables is not an issue at any point during buildup, but that's not always the case if you are trashing down. You need a rather large percentage of your deck to be Treasure to draw your deck with Stables.

[GendoIkari]

Stables - I was definitely confused to see this higher than Lab in the new list. It's better than Lab if you can't trash your Coppers, but most of the time you can and should. The fact that this relies on treasures gives two ways it can dud: You can either draw a hand with all treasures or draw Stables with no treasures. Lab's consistency will beat it most of the time, I think.

I think part of the reason here is that Stables is much better than Lab in the early/mid-game when you are still building and trashing down. It cycles you much faster and will pretty much never dud early on. You shouldn't evaluate a card solely by how good it is in an already smoothly running engine.

Stable is kind of stupid. It's the same thing as laboratory but you get rid of a good card

Do you... do you think that Coppers are good cards?

No, I don't. But there's a thing called trashing all your coppers which is what I do. So then I have good cards that I don't want to discard.

If you trashed all your Coppers, you very likely trashed all your Estates as well. This means that any cards in your deck should either be A) Silvers or B) Better than Silvers. Thus, discarding a Silver to draw the next 3 cards in your deck should be, on average, better than drawing just the next 2 cards while keeping that Silver, because that third card should be better than Silver.

Also, you aren't usually going to have trashed all your Coppers right away (not all games have Chapel or Donate). For many turns, you'll still have Coppers to discard. In general, you want Treasures at the end of your turn, not during your action phase. That Silver in your hand is worthless now; you'd rather draw it later. If you're able to draw your deck, then discarding the Silver (or even Gold or Platinum!) now means a better chance of drawing the action cards you need in order to draw through your deck. You'll end up playing those Silvers anyway.

This is true, but it also assumes that your deck has enough Treasure in it that activating your Stables is not an issue at any point during buildup, but that's not always the case if you are trashing down. You need a rather large percentage of your deck to be Treasure to draw your deck with Stables.

Yeah, I'm not trying to state that Stables is way better than Labs... only that discarding a Silver to a Stable is generally going to be a good thing.

[faust]

Caravan [...] is basically Den of Sin [...] all those other aforementioned side benefits are removed as well.

This sounds to me like if you were underestimating the value of early speed-ups. It is far more than a side benefit if a card can be useful a whole shuffle earlier; the gap between gain-to-hand and play-next-shuffle is comparable to the gap between a T3 chapel and a T5 chapel.

Yeah. It's notable that the event that just functions as a 1-shot Den of Sin already costs $3 and is pretty decent. You pay $2 extra to get the Den permanently, that's a good deal. If Den didn't gain to hand, I think it would be about as good as Caravan.

[Commodore Chuckles]

Caravan [...] is basically Den of Sin [...] all those other aforementioned side benefits are removed as well.

This sounds to me like if you were underestimating the value of early speed-ups. It is far more than a side benefit if a card can be useful a whole shuffle earlier; the gap between gain-to-hand and play-next-shuffle is comparable to the gap between a T3 chapel and a T5 chapel.

Yeah. It's notable that the event that just functions as a 1-shot Den of Sin already costs $3 and is pretty decent. You pay $2 extra to get the Den permanently, that's a good deal. If Den didn't gain to hand, I think it would be about as good as Caravan.

I knew the gain-to-hand thing is good, but I guess I was still underestimating it. Thanks for the analysis; I'll keep it in mind.